Crimson Guard Edict #8 and the Seventh Call from those in Solitude

[Haflinger]

I'm not trying to speak for you and I don't see how you could possibly interpret it as such. And who would those 'other friends' be, a few small micro alliances? The only big-name alliances I saw standing up for them were Invicta and TJO.

Honestly, I don't actually know. I know who some of the people offering military help were, but there weren't any large alliances in them to my knowledge.

TJO is a VE protectorate, at about 300K NS. They don't have the ability to project the kind of force that Invicta does, although they are well-known on these forums.

My suspicion is that given the fairly small amount of the reparations, and the fact that at least some of their allies didn't really support the attack anyway, IS decided to pay the fee rather than face a largish number of micros which would possibly have had access to Invicta banks fighting it.

Anyway, from all I've been able to tell it was a satisfactory conclusion to a war which should never have happened, really. Can't we all just move on? Surely someone else can invent some drama somewhere.

[wickedj]

Crimson Guard Edict #8 and the Seventh Call from those in Solitude

Seventh Call

It is with pleasure abundant that, because there have been no subsequent attacks from the Viridian Entente since the admittedly devastating wars that occurred in the space of a single week, that Solitude announces its peace with these most capable foes on the Green Sphere. It was Solitude, I specifically, that requested a grueling battle that it would remember as such. Acknowledging that Viridia enthusiastically granted Solitude this request, I would personally take this opportunity to give them my thanks, as well as my admission of defeat. For what it amounts to, Viridia has gained Solitude's respect, and thus, now offers its support to Viridia in the next conflict that it is involved in, so long as it does not, by some prank, happen to be against Solitude's Blood Ally, the Crimson Guard.

Crimson Guard Edict #8

Regarding said ally, the Crimson Guard has most graciously agreed to a temporary protection of Solitude that shall last until the Guard sees fit to retract the agreement. It should be noted that if, in fact, Viridia still considers itself in a state of war with Solitude, then the latter will suspend this agreement until hostilities cease. If and when that should occur, this agreement shall henceforth be ratified.

And with that, I ratify the above as words spoken in truth.

Bird of Passage, Wandering Mercenary

Wait a second. you're being protected by some tiny alliance who itself needs protected?

Hmm. which cliche to use? Blind leading the blind? Paitents running the asylum? Fail?

Edited August 24, 2009 by wickedj

[Hell Scream]

No, you actually lost NS, but nice try!

What? He's not allowed to say that someone is so annoying/arrogant/etc. that they should be rolled ever again because his alliance fought in the Karma war? OK...

No. During the war we gained 1 ghost, that left after it ended We gained NS, not lost it.

IS lost it.

But nice try!

Wait...I think you need to rethink your argument. You are saying that one man alliances are easy to protect from raiders? Its a ONE NATION ALLIANCE, it is going to be raided repeatedly in my estimation. Perhaps not if it was part of a larger alliance or has a protector alliance that is any other besides CG. Hello, you just pissed off the raiding sphere. This is obvious bait or its an extremely silly PR stunt. Whatever it is, you should have just took your win and then laid low for a little while.

As stated above, that makes it look simply like a bait alliance/nation.

Funny, STA was at one point part of Karma. I don't see you taking this response with me.

I respect STA and know Tyga fought for what he believed in.

You deserve to exist, however you guys are freaking annoying. You brag about your skills, and you claim you humiliated IS, but the truth is that you guys would have been crushed without outside help. With lots of bravo you announce a 1 man protectorate while in reality you can't even back them up when needed. It are all empty words.

I am in FOK yes, we fought for Karma for a multitude of reasons, but the most important reason is that we fight alongside our allies, and those were all on the Karma side. I don't see how this has anything to do with this at all and why this makes me a hypocrite. For the record your war with IS had nothing to do with justice, you guys were provoking them, and when they attacked you, you didn't know how fast to run to your allies for backup lol.

So you're gonna deny that Karma was pre-planned before NPO hit OV, and that FOK was in on the planning before it's allies got hit? IS hit us because they thought it was going to be funny.

We are not bragging about our skills, and you must realize that this thread is not about CG, but about Solitude's dealings with The Viridian Entente, and in addition it states that we protect Bird from raids.

[Gn0xious Jr]

Funny a Karma member talks about "humiliation through terms", after what Karma did to Echelon and NPO with terms.

First,

I'm not talking about the terms.

Second,

Did I personally come to the [ooc]forums[/ooc] saying that "Karma rose above a much stronger opponent and humiliate them through terms?"

I think not. I don't condone gloating about victory, however large or small. I'm sure there were some sore winners within the Karma coalition, but I've strived to NOT fall into that category.

I actually pressed hard for CG in previous threads regarding this IS incident. I'm simply stating that the situation may not be as favorable for CG in the future, and as a leader, I'd want to keep the gloating to a minimum to ensure that the support is there if needed in the future.

If that is taken as me being a Karma member saying these terms were harsh/humiliating, then I don't know how else to explain it...

[crushtania]

Crimson Guard make too many edicts. What is it with the Red sphere and dictating to the masses?

[Sonata]

No small alliance can defend themself militarily against a larger alliance. When your nations have not the strength to protect themselves, it is with words you are protected. That or a protectorate agreement, but that is not "with your own strength." CG managed to get a number of alliances to their cause; that's just another way of fighting, words and politics are just as strong a weapon as soldiers and tanks. I do hope that CG can move ahead with becoming self-sufficient, I like'em and would like to see them grow into their own. Until such time, Invicta will stand by them to aid them in that process.

You're correct in the realm of pure math, where a large alliance will overwhelm the smaller one with its larger nation count and strenght, and that assumption scales, such as one large alliance being destroyed by a bloc of alliances or a larger bloc destroying the small bloc, but in there are many smaller alliances that are secure because they have normalized relations. These come in the form of protectorates, defensive pacts, blocs, take your pick. These treaties bring security through various means. In some cases they might allow a group of smaller alliances to have a larger total strength than a single midsized alliance. In other cases the smaller alliances might be weaker than said midsized, but they are left in peace because they are large enough to promise a bloody and unprofitable war.

The Crimson Guard has none of these. In some cases they actually seem proud of their treatiless state. Rather they depend on the moral highground and appeals to the community to gain support, as opposed a normalized treaty network. That is of course their choice, but their choice brings limiting factors to their actions, namely they can operate in an enviroment where they have the support of the community so their boasting and eroding of their popular support is a boneheaded move on their part.

Of course now they seem to have established a de facto protectorate with Invicta, even if they lack a treaty to go with it, so they're really no different than any other microalliance surviving via the strength and will of its protector. They might strut and posture if they wish about defeating IS, but we all know who really did.

[Kevin McDonald]

Funny a Karma member talks about "humiliation through terms", after what Karma did to Echelon and NPO with terms.

Hilarious. Make sure you don't miss any straws as you grasp at them.

[Penkala]

Honestly, I don't actually know. I know who some of the people offering military help were, but there weren't any large alliances in them to my knowledge.

TJO is a VE protectorate, at about 300K NS. They don't have the ability to project the kind of force that Invicta does, although they are well-known on these forums.

My suspicion is that given the fairly small amount of the reparations, and the fact that at least some of their allies didn't really support the attack anyway, IS decided to pay the fee rather than face a largish number of micros which would possibly have had access to Invicta banks fighting it.

Anyway, from all I've been able to tell it was a satisfactory conclusion to a war which should never have happened, really. Can't we all just move on? Surely someone else can invent some drama somewhere.

I think it's more of, if the micros had attacked then PC would have attacked and if PC attacked they thought Invicta and CDT would attack. I don't think they were worried about a few small alliances hitting them, they were worried about Invicta hitting them (whether you would have or not there was certainly the possibility).

[Goldie]

bird of solitude will get peace from ve, but the reason you have no attacks right now is because its not easy for a 21k avg ns nation to find nations to attack you with 130 infrastructure, not because we had any desire to see a rogue let off the hook.

however, peace is on the horizon, ill post some semi-humerous logs to corroborate:

[13:04] <&ImperoMobile> Did anyone tell you guys to stop hitting birds of passage?

[13:06] <@goldielax25[VE]> no

[13:06] <@goldielax25[VE]> hes just unattackable by anyone in the battalions at this point

[13:10] <&ImperoMobile> Hm

[13:10] <&ImperoMobile> Shall I be merciful?

[13:10] <@goldielax25[VE]> i think hes seen his punishment personally

[13:11] <&ImperoMobile> Impero the Merciful

[13:12] <@Wadling> That's an oxymoron

[13:12] <&ImperoMobile> I let him go

Edited August 24, 2009 by goldielax25

[Locke]

I think it's more of, if the micros had attacked then PC would have attacked and if PC attacked they thought Invicta and CDT would attack. I don't think they were worried about a few small alliances hitting them, they were worried about Invicta hitting them (whether you would have or not there was certainly the possibility).

Haf, listen to Penkala, it's rare but I think he's actually right. Just because we hadn't committed to any military action (nor likely would we have), we were still there standing around looking big and scary all treaty'd and bloc'd up. It was in their best interest not to tangle with us.

[Penkala]

No. During the war we gained 1 ghost, that left after it ended We gained NS, not lost it.

IS lost it.

But nice try!

I respect STA and know Tyga fought for what he believed in.

So you're gonna deny that Karma was pre-planned before NPO hit OV, and that FOK was in on the planning before it's allies got hit? IS hit us because they thought it was going to be funny.

We are not bragging about our skills, and you must realize that this thread is not about CG, but about Solitude's dealings with The Viridian Entente, and in addition it states that we protect Bird from raids.

Yes, they bulked up before you (hence their NS increasing) because they knew the war was coming. Then they attacked, and as they attacked you bought soldiers and tanks, canceling out much of the losses in military strength. Then your NS fell a bit just as theirs did.

[Haflinger]

I think it's more of, if the micros had attacked then PC would have attacked and if PC attacked they thought Invicta and CDT would attack. I don't think they were worried about a few small alliances hitting them, they were worried about Invicta hitting them (whether you would have or not there was certainly the possibility).

Oh yes. We hadn't ruled out military intervention, but we certainly hadn't committed to it, and some people had.

Nevertheless, pretty much everyone got what they wanted, so can't we just let this one go, especially in a thread about a 1-man alliance that had some issues with VE?

[Penkala]

Haf, listen to Penkala, it's rare but I think he's actually right. Just because we hadn't committed to any military action (nor likely would we have), we were still there standing around looking big and scary all treaty'd and bloc'd up. It was in their best interest not to tangle with us.

Exactly. Take a PR hit and accept terms, or face the possibility of being attacked, destroyed then forced to take a bigger PR it and accept terms anyways, and they figured they may as well just end it before things got ugly. It wasn't worth the risk to them.

Nevertheless, pretty much everyone got what they wanted, so can't we just let this one go, especially in a thread about a 1-man alliance that had some issues with VE?

Fair enough, dropping it.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Penkala

[scythegfx]

We hold no De-facto protectorates. If CG manages to ?@#> up on a grand scale, they can ask us for help, and if they deserve it, we'll help. If they do something universally stupid, then theyre on their own, I will not see Invicta or its allies dragged into a war for no just cause.

That said, I don't think CG will mess up, and we'll try to help them in any cause so long as we think they're in the right.

But really, Is there a point to this protectorate? Surely he could have waited to get a few more members before looking for a protectorate, or just put "protected by Crimson Guard" in his Nation Bio.

Just my 2 cents.

[Hell Scream]

Yes, they bulked up before you (hence their NS increasing) because they knew the war was coming. Then they attacked, and as they attacked you bought soldiers and tanks, canceling out much of the losses in military strength. Then your NS fell a bit just as theirs did.

Day before IS attacked, they lost a bit NS, day they attacked they lost more. CG only lost NS due to a member leaving that joined to attack IS, but was disappointed when we didn't go to war.

[Emperor Brutus]

My dear Sunny, I remind you that Crimson Guard is currently being paid 84 million in reps, and our attackers signed a humiliating peace agreement with us.

By Default

84 Million, won't get you in the "protection zone", one nation can pay that

[Bird of Passage]

The respect here should be directed at Invicta and those who backed Invicta's intervention to the point where Invicta was able to appear to be at the tip of a large enough to give IS pause and force PWN to back down. Crimson Guard is worthy of no respect. If this raid had executed by a group with better public relations or at a time when alliances were involved in a major war and lacked the troops to spare for side offensives the Crimson Guard would be still be fighting and likely losing. Francessa's words have no power, unless there are major powers willing to take up your cause. Crimson Guard's security is not something they have secured on their own, rather it depends purely upon their ability to convince others to fight and posture for them. Perhaps after this merger Francessa keeps alluding to they will find a better stance, but at the moment they are weak.

Consider as an example this "protectorate" of Solitude. The Crimson Guard lacks the ability to simply take this Bird of Passage as a protectorate, rather they load the treaty with escape clauses in case the Virdians decide they are not through with Bird of Passage yet. In a simple form the treaty reads "We take the Bird of Passage as a protectorate, unless others take exception, at which point we will back down." This is how the Crimson Guard lives, on the sufferance of larger alliances. They are not independent, for they can only undertake actions that please the world community. They have no true freedom, only the false freedom given to small children or spoiled pets.

In the end only the strong will survive, and the Crimson Guard will not be amongst the survivors.

I would like to clarify that the Suspension Clause in case of Viridian attack was my idea, not the Guard's. In fact, Francesca made no specific requests for Suspension during the talks leading up to this.

I hope that, with that, this particular issue has been cleared.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Bird of Passage

[Bird of Passage]

bird of solitude will get peace from ve, but the reason you have no attacks right now is because its not easy for a 21k avg ns nation to find nations to attack you with 130 infrastructure, not because we had any desire to see a rogue let off the hook.

however, peace is on the horizon, ill post some semi-humerous logs to corroborate:

[13:04] <&ImperoMobile> Did anyone tell you guys to stop hitting birds of passage?

[13:06] <@goldielax25[VE]> no

[13:06] <@goldielax25[VE]> hes just unattackable by anyone in the battalions at this point

[13:10] <&ImperoMobile> Hm

[13:10] <&ImperoMobile> Shall I be merciful?

[13:10] <@goldielax25[VE]> i think hes seen his punishment personally

[13:11] <&ImperoMobile> Impero the Merciful

[13:12] <@Wadling> That's an oxymoron

[13:12] <&ImperoMobile> I let him go

The Bird bowed low.

Viridia has been most gracious regarding this whole incident. Many thanks.

[Glen MoP]

[OOC] Now, I saw SunnyInc reading this topic, and I thought to myself: oh, fantastic, I wonder what SunnyInc is going to post in our thread.... [/OOC]

My dear Sunny, I remind you that Crimson Guard is currently being paid 84 million in reps, and our attackers signed a humiliating peace agreement with us.

Wasn't part of the proclaimed point of the whole Karma War the end of harsh or excessive terms? If the peace agreement was "humiliating" then it was probably excessive. If you have to go beyond "winning" to "humiliating" you're probably overdoing it.

[Puppet Master]

*Gives CG a round of applause*

I would say its sorry to see any PR you gained has faded away, but its not.

I never thought i would get to say that twice in one day about you Francesca and your alliance, but i guess the moons were aligned today or something. I am glad that your true colors have finally shown through and I feel sorry for those alliances that were taken along for a ride by your crying and whimpering. Francesca, it seemed that many had forgotten about your past (I have not), but you have done your very best with your gloating about a war that you did not deserve to win and comments here to jog everyone's memory and make sure they do not forget anytime soon.

Also, it has been shown that you are in no position to protect anyone as you cannot protect your own alliance members without help from the international community. Even if the alliance is only one member, you may want to direct him to an alliance that would be able to actually protect him if it came down to it.

[AirMe]

You can barely protect yourselves. Why would you take on a protectorate? Do you even have nations in range to protect this alliance?

[Vizard]

Um, isn't Solitude a one man alliance? BoP may as well be a member of CG...

I is noob

Edited August 25, 2009 by Mordecai

[Newhotness]

Hm, ive seen that flag before. Hooray for Originality

[Groucho Marx]

What a rip off of the Goon Order Of Neutral Shoving flag.

[Hell Scream]

*Gives CG a round of applause*

I never thought i would get to say that twice in one day about you Francesca and your alliance, but i guess the moons were aligned today or something. I am glad that your true colors have finally shown through and I feel sorry for those alliances that were taken along for a ride by your crying and whimpering. Francesca, it seemed that many had forgotten about your past (I have not), but you have done your very best with your gloating about a war that you did not deserve to win and comments here to jog everyone's memory and make sure they do not forget anytime soon.

Also, it has been shown that you are in no position to protect anyone as you cannot protect your own alliance members without help from the international community. Even if the alliance is only one member, you may want to direct him to an alliance that would be able to actually protect him if it came down to it.

But it was a tech raid!