About IS's aggression on CG

[jerdge]

Yesterday, with a non unprecedented action, Internet Superheroes started an (apparently) non-motivated attack on Crimson Guard, taking advantage of CG's lack of "documented" treaties, apparently hoping to crush a weak victim.

IS already got the explicit "just in case" promise of military support from Poison Clan, AFAIK their strongest direct ally, while CG collected promises of moral non-military support only, with the only possible exception of other very small parties.

I personally don't believe to the theory of the "tech raid":

• IS hasn't an history of organized tech raids on whole alliances;
  
• It has already been stated and not denied that IS adopted non-raiding tactics and techniques (in opposition to its own policies on raids), using blockades, spy ops against nukes, etc;
  
• IS didn't use any "typical" reference to the attacks being raids, in the 16 War Reason of their update blitz, whereas 10 out of 12 of its previous war declarations against other parties include some reference of that type;
  
• Crimson Guard is a 10+ members alliance with evident political ties, and not an ideal raid target: the "CN community" already showed its discontent about the aggression.
  
• Despite the difference in Nation Strength, this attack won't be "profitable" for IS: they're going to lose a lot of infrastructure and to eat some nukes.
  

I'm thus left to the political reason.

As IS didn't bother to inform the community about the aggression, one could think that it's a questionable political reason that they would be ashamed to share with the public. However, being the IS the IS, I don't think that this is a good explanation either. I also don't believe that IS has any specific reason of grievance against CG in itself, otherwise they would have aired it to the public, as it would have been their interest to do.

The only left option I can think of, to justify IS's "silence" over this matter, is that there's some sort of conspiracy behind this conflict, with its objective being someone or something different from CG.

I can imagine wars against a "random" party "just to state a point" (about war itself, to change the political landscape, to shake and a provoke, etc) but again I can't imagine IS doing it (at least, not without being vocal about it).

I thus conclude that this attack is probably a conspiracy to hit someone else. Not counting the small parties linked to CG, and not counting the NPO - that is not formally linked to CG, and is anyway very well protected - the only other party that I can imagine to be the target of this action is the NSO, that not so far ago issued a "global ODP" doctrine (the new Moldavi Doctrine) and that was recently involved in a (very discussed) war against RAD, treaty partner of IS.

Of course, I can't know the level of involvment of anybody in this (alleged) conspiracy, if any. In fact, there is no "hard" proof that this conspiracy actually exists. Assuming that it is more than a mere hypotesis, anyway, it looks like it has been clumsily executed and that not "everybody" was informed in time: PC's statement of support might have wasted it...

Finally, my take on this issue.

If I was responsible of an alliance with ties with IS I'd work to cut said ties ASAP. They've shown a lot of irresponsibility, in my humble opinion, and they're going to be a liability and an headache for their entire existence (that admittedly, might be not "so much" long). If there's a conspiracy behind this, I'd also go around asking questions, and cutting ties with everybody that had or participated in that "great" idea.

This isn't the way to pursue one's political goals: not only such an attitude would be very questionable, it is guaranteed to bring a bitter doom in the long run...

Thoughts?

Edited August 21, 2009 by jerdge

[Francesca]

I personally believe that we were intended as bait to get NSO involved, where they would be destroyed when Athens came in through PC's treaty with them. Despite the fact that it wouldn't have worked, because CnG didn't support IS in this. SuperFriends might also have got involved through RoK.

Also, we have a lot more military support than you might imagine.

[Thorgrum]

Thoughts?

If its a tech raid do they have in thier policy a "no bawing" clause when the target fights back? CG happened to fight back, which included coming to the OWF and now we have PC coming in to pledge military support if needed for IS?

Idiots.

If its a DOW fine, do it and be done but the running around with this "tech raid" montra is pretty dam funny. The raid target fought back and now they need to have thier allies pledge support should they get rolled?

Idiots.

Also the NSO angle? Thats giving them an awful lot of credit IMHO, did I mention I think they are idiots? But hey why not, its the new brave world anything is possible. I would happily admit I am wrong if that is the case (you know retract the whole idiots commentary) that would be even more entertaining !

Edited August 21, 2009 by Thorgrum

[Hell Scream]

This has been mentioned previously. You are giving pink too much credit, though.

[King Wally]

I think too much credit is being given to IS here.... firstly I know several members have some rather "far out" ideas toward CN and they most probebly thought it would be fun to roll a much smaller alliance without treaty's and that they asumed was perhaps unpopular in some circles. ... as can be seen many people may not of necessarilly rated CG as one of their favourite alliances but when they are abused like they have been here that is irellevant... if anything IS have just pushed the popularity rating of CG through the roof. Great work IS im sure your enjoying the lulz now (*insert sarcasm here ... just in case it wasn't evident)

Edited August 21, 2009 by King Wally

[King DrunkWino]

This has been mentioned previously. You are giving pink too much credit, though.

I don't think it's giving them too much credit. If it was bait for the dirty Sith, then it's rather transparent and (and no offense to them,) amateurish. Also along the lines of if it was, from the first few posts I saw from the dirty Sithlings, they picked up on that particular angle right off. Jedi and Sith may be on opposite sides of the spectrum but I'll give them enough credit to say that nobody will catch them in such a clumsy trap.

I doubt we ever have a full answer for this. I tend to think the dirty Sith trap is the most probable answer though. It's about the only thing that makes any sort of sense.

[Jack Diorno]

Take a look at IS's political ties, they have few treaties and it's pretty obvious they don't care much for getting involved in politics. They probably did it as a training exercise or for fun, they may well have done it because they don't like CG, CG isn't a well liked alliance and really in this situation the only reason they have support is because IS is liked even less.

No conspiracy.

[Acca Dacca]

if anything IS have just pushed the popularity rating of CG through the roof.

Not really. CG hasnt gotten magically popular. The only thing that has happened is that IS is recieving a beatdown for giving Francesca something she wanted. She was "rather bored" and now IS has answered her prayers. Lets also not forget that ->some<- of those honorable alliances who only attack because they have a personal vendetta against IS for some reason or another and have found an excuse through CG.

[emily]

Didn't we already have this issue with The family? Only it didn't get quite the same MHA diplomatic respose? I'm confused?

Edited August 21, 2009 by emily

[Corinan]

This is the same conclusion we quickly came to. It was an attempt at exacting revenge against us for taking RAD to the woodshed. I wouldn't put it past IS to set up such an obvious trap, but it's also entirely likely that their allies conspired with them.

[Hell Scream]

This is the same conclusion we quickly came to. It was an attempt at exacting revenge against us for taking RAD to the woodshed. I wouldn't put it past IS to set up such an obvious trap, but it's also entirely likely that their allies conspired with them.

How do you call "getting slaughtered by NSO and her Frostbite allies and their allies"revenge? The conspiracy plot is not plausible, unless you call IS idiots, and Xander is anything but an idiot.

[Corinan]

How do you call "getting slaughtered by NSO and her Frostbite allies and their allies"revenge? The conspiracy plot is not plausible, unless you call IS idiots, and Xander is anything but an idiot.

If we had declared war on IS in support of CG, the rest of PWN (and others, I think) could have declared on us in support of IS. Not only is this theory plausible, it's the only one that really makes any sense.

[Epik High]

Not really. CG hasnt gotten magically popular. The only thing that has happened is that IS is recieving a beatdown for giving Francesca something she wanted. She was "rather bored" and now IS has answered her prayers. Lets also not forget that ->some<- of those honorable alliances who only attack because they have a personal vendetta against IS for some reason or another and have found an excuse through CG.

I think what some people want is not the war itself, but the power over others that comes with it. I'm rather bored. Does that mean I want to be tech raided? Well, maybe. Does that also mean I want to utilize and mobilize all the military power and political support I can get in the event of such an attack, to force my enemy into submission? Yes.

[Acca Dacca]

I think what some people want is not the war itself, but the power over others that comes with it. I'm rather bored. Does that mean I want to be tech raided? Well, maybe. Does that also mean I want to utilize and mobilize all the military power and political support I can get in the event of such an attack, to force my enemy into submission? Yes.

Well. Lets say you call out that you are bored on the OWF, and a very high, very powerful individual who is very popular raids you. Will the political support be as much? not likely. I was simply saying that this isnt as much of a rally to save someone as it is to hurt someone.

[James Wilson]

Since when is Invicta small?

[Epik High]

Well. Lets say you call out that you are bored on the OWF, and a very high, very powerful individual who is very popular raids you. Will the political support be as much? not likely. I was simply saying that this isnt as much of a rally to save someone as it is to hurt someone.

I think that would generally be the case in any situation similar to this. Unknown underdog gets attacked. Earns automatic sympathy points even though people had previously known nothing about them. The aggressor is seen as having pulled off a dick move--some people rally to show support, mainly because of their distaste of the aggression. I don't think that fact detracts from the value of the political support behind the underdog alliance at all. Plenty of value in wanting to "hurt" alliances that pull off dick moves.

The "wrong" situation I guess would be people cheering on the popular player who does something similar, when decrying them (like right now) would be the more "appropriate" response.

[King DrunkWino]

I was simply saying that this isnt as much of a rally to save someone as it is to hurt someone.

I disagree with you there. There are a myriad of reasons why someone might support Crimson Guard in this matter that aren't simply that they do not like IS. Smaller alliances might look around and ask which one of them is next and step up now, others might have some compassion for CG based on how this particular episode has gone down, and still more might just like folks in CG and want to help them.

Let's take me, I didn't know who or really give a hoot who IS was prior to yesterday. I also didn't really know, personally, anyone in CG. However, as yesterday happened I found some sympathy towards the folks of CG. I'll admit to not being fans of them before, but nobody deserves to get curbstomped for no good reason, and being small and treaty-less doesn't constitute a good reason to me. So I did something I never do, I put on an idiot hat and mocked IS all day long.

Why? Not because I particular cared to hurt them (to be fair I also didn't particular mind it if they did get hurt,) but any sort of pressure on IS would help relieve the pressure they were sticking on CG.

/though, while we're on that road, I did go overboard on IS and pink yesterday. Since now the situation has changed up quite dramatically, I'll say I'll apologize to pink for that. I'm sure you understand what I was doing and all and you might very well do the same things. Though, if it makes you feel better, I'm probably gonna have a wee little duel with a PC boy in a week or so. You can have some fun watching us nuke each other. He'll probably win though, I'm fairly average at war and he's pretty good at it.

[Acca Dacca]

I think that would generally be the case in any situation similar to this. Unknown underdog gets attacked. Earns automatic sympathy points even though people had previously known nothing about them. The aggressor is seen as having pulled off a dick move--some people rally to show support, mainly because of their distaste of the aggression. I don't think that fact detracts from the value of the political support behind the underdog alliance at all. Plenty of value in wanting to "hurt" alliances that pull off dick moves.

The "wrong" situation I guess would be people cheering on the popular player who does something similar, when decrying them (like right now) would be the more "appropriate" response.

CG isnt a popular alliance. IS is just less popular. People mildly do not like them. What you're calling sympathy for CG is nothing but loathing for IS in the CG-IS scenario. ->Some<- dont rally to the support of the underdog, just the chance to rop apart someone they dont like.

What I am trying to say is that some of the political support behind CG isnt because they like CG. Isnt because they are the underdog. Its because they now have an opportunity to rip apart IS.

[ChairmanHal]

Or...

1. Alliances have organized "training exercises" against small alliances for a very long time. There is therefore nothing new about this attack, except that IS fumbled it in the P.R. arena and should never have attacked an alliance that contains OWF regulars in the first place.

2. NSO is not criminally stupid and they can read. IS has enough dangling treaty strings that the bait would appear totally unappetizing. What's more, NSO has Frostbite backing them up--the ambush would very quickly evolve into a much larger war with the ambushers likely finding their outside allies not particularly interested in joining in. Anyone smart enough to set this up as a trap would realize all this and therefore while it would have made an interesting IRC convo it would have gone no further.

3. You could just as easily make the case that this incident (which started as described in #1) is being manipulated to draw PC in and when that happens NSO would "ride to the rescue", garnering all sorts of positive PR as they smack down those "rascally tech raiders".

This was all great fun last night and indeed IS screwed the pooch. But I fail to see why this raid/war/police action/whatever merits the tin foil hat treatment.

[astronaut jones]

If superfriends EVER gets involved in helping out a pink team alliance that is a part of pwn or pwnage, I will leave MA rather than help one of those worthless alliances out.

[King DrunkWino]

CG isnt a popular alliance. IS is just less popular. People mildly do not like them. What you're calling sympathy for CG is nothing but loathing for IS in the CG-IS scenario. ->Some<- dont rally to the support of the underdog, just the chance to rop apart someone they dont like.

What I am trying to say is that some of the political support behind CG isnt because they like CG. Isnt because they are the underdog. Its because they now have an opportunity to rip apart IS.

If you don't mind my asking, who are you thinking wants to rip apart IS?

[emily]

CG isnt a popular alliance. IS is just less popular. People mildly do not like them. What you're calling sympathy for CG is nothing but loathing for IS in the CG-IS scenario. ->Some<- dont rally to the support of the underdog, just the chance to rop apart someone they dont like.

What I am trying to say is that some of the political support behind CG isnt because they like CG. Isnt because they are the underdog. Its because they now have an opportunity to rip apart IS.

So you are saying that people in CN do not behave according to what is right and wrong, but mearly use events as an excuse to attack those they dislike?

I'd like to thik I would stand up for what is right regardles of who was attacked.

[Epik High]

CG isnt a popular alliance. IS is just less popular. People mildly do not like them. What you're calling sympathy for CG is nothing but loathing for IS in the CG-IS scenario. ->Some<- dont rally to the support of the underdog, just the chance to rop apart someone they dont like.

What I am trying to say is that some of the political support behind CG isnt because they like CG. Isnt because they are the underdog. Its because they now have an opportunity to rip apart IS.

Well, considering recent events, I'm not surprised that this is the case. I mean, they have a perfectly good reason to oppose IS, augmented with unrelated grudges or not. If opportunity comes knocking...

[Acca Dacca]

to KingDrunkWino:

I personally hold nothing against either of these alliances. I do support tech raiding but a raider has to pay if he gets caught with his pants down. So this war is on the fault of IS. However, it has quickly come to another bandwagon in the era of bandwagons that we have. Yet, unlike most, which would usually occur with people such as Opethian, where treaties arent needed to show that people do care for the one maned people, that this war has more than just that.

IS is funny in my book. In others, they'd rather shut thier mouth for them. In Wentworth's case he says this in the Recognition of Hostilitied thread:

Elyat sums it up pretty well IMO.

But barring that, another way to look at is IS does indeed have every right to break their own raiding policies and declare war for whatever reason. Conversely, the whole goddamn world has every sovereign right to declare war on IS and RAD if they want for being dicks. I don't think anyone is really that surprised by this action from IS, they went full retard a long time ago. You never go full retard man. Someone also pointed out the fact that CG seems to have been targeted because of not having defense treaties. I have spoke out against IS plenty of times for their petty asinine behavior and yet no attacks on Vires Noctu yet. I mean we are only 22 nations with a low AVG strength, IS would probably kick our teeth in. Oh, but then Pegasus and possibly the whole of Purple would be at your door.

It's really quite simple when you look at it. IS are nothing more than playground bullies who are most likely about to get kicked in the nuts by the kid who studied kung fu with Chuck Norris. They will cry foul, say it was for the lulz and retreat back to their corner.

Personally, if I didn't have to go through Pegasus to get clearance, I would have declared on IS a long time ago, you know, for the lulz. And to be quite honest, I would love to kick some of their teeth in. I and the whole of Vires Noctu wish CG and whoever joins them tonight luck in ridding the world of a garbage pile that should have been thrown out long ago.

He goes on to post a DoS where he says he promised to defend unarmed alliances a month ago. I promised to stop speeding at 3am in the morning to an officer but I dont expect people to hold me to that. I am only taking up this case simply because it was stated publicly. I could go around places looking for people who have found a distaste for IS on these forums and show the relation between the DoS's and the disgruntled parties, but I have things to do.

So, did some people come out in the defense of CG? Sure. Does the whole bunch deserve an honorable title for destroying IS? No. Some people came out on lolpink night to simply stick it to IS.

[King DrunkWino]

So, did some people come out in the defense of CG? Sure. Does the whole bunch deserve an honorable title for destroying IS? No. Some people came out on lolpink night to simply stick it to IS.

Never claimed differently, just pointing out the flip side to that coin where some folks came out solely to support Crimson Guards.