At Long Last, the End of the Karma War

[Tygaland]

you are greatly misinformed here, Tyga.

NPO was stonewalling us. We were trying to get answers from them, they weren,'t answering the phones. When something this serious arises, the message of "We're the NPO, don't question us" doesn't cut it.

About what Bigwoody told you all? This is the first I've heard of this even after asking this question a number of times to people from various alliances that cancelled on the NPO.

Others in this thread even confirmed they never bothered to ask until after the treaties had been cancelled.

[Phoebe]

Everybody's time is coming.

It's a fact of CN. Just make sure you have your ducks lined up; or you may get more than bargained for.

Just food for thought.

lol .... how funny. Ducks would be way to much for them to handle.

[Trigger]

o/ TPF, you guys are awesome.

PC .... your time is coming.

Please, no idle threats in a happy surrender thread.

[Litha Riddle]

Please, no idle threats in a happy surrender thread.

I don't think there has, or ever will be such a thing as a 'happy' surrender

All the same, peace is good, lets all drop the tough talk now and try and enjoy peace time.

[Monster]

o/ TPF, you guys are awesome.

PC .... your time is coming.

Is it now?

[der_ko]

bigwoody ran around to everyone in Q and 1V and essentially said we were going to bail on the war, and leave everyone out to dry.

Coming from a member of One Vision, this was a serious allegation, which is why most of our allies didn't enter the war on that fateful day.

It did teach us a valuable lesson about the intentions of our adversaries and the lengths they would go to in order to destroy us, and took full advantage of the chaos and lack of communication on our side. Suffice it to say, this wasn't true, though it DID earn bigwoody a white peace. The 'Coalition of Cowards' is an incorrect label, the 'Coalition of the Deceived' would be a better one. Once they learned the truth all our allies came out to help us, but the damage was done, and the 'hegemony' as you love to refer to our allies, was dead.

Protip: don't ally with bigwoody

Let me get the timeline straight.

1. NPO, TPF and TORN attempts to trump up "charges" against OV.

2. OV doesn't give in your bullying.

3. You declare war on OV.

4. Immediately after the NPO realize they've bitten off more then they can chew and attempts to use the 'Undo' button which fails because the NPO won't admit they are in the wrong.

5. Bigwoody supposedly runs around telling everyone NPO is going to 'bail' on the war.

6. The Coalition of Cowards realizes time is urgent. The CoC must cancel all their treaties with the NPO before they 'bail' on the war or something very bad, which we won't go into details about, would have happened.

Makes perfect sense.

[Bob Janova]

Bigwoody wasn't a 'member of One Vision' in the first place ... if you (James Dahl) can't get a simple fact like that in order, then the rest of your story comes under serious doubt as well.

Even if your account is absolutely correct, it simply confirms that you didn't notify your allies of your war plans in advance (as both Continuum and One Vision, and most of your bilateral treaties, required), and therefore voided almost all of your treaties by breaking them. You're lucky that so many of them were sufficiently attached to the hegemony they'd helped build that they fought with you anyway.

[Haflinger]

Bigwoody wasn't a 'member of One Vision' in the first place ... if you (James Dahl) can't get a simple fact like that in order, then the rest of your story comes under serious doubt as well.

Even if your account is absolutely correct, it simply confirms that you didn't notify your allies of your war plans in advance (as both Continuum and One Vision, and most of your bilateral treaties, required), and therefore voided almost all of your treaties by breaking them. You're lucky that so many of them were sufficiently attached to the hegemony they'd helped build that they fought with you anyway.

Bigwoody informed a lot of NPO allies of their plans in advance.

He was actually one of the main speakers in the prewar planning channels.

[Bob Janova]

Bigwoody isn't a member of the NPO, though, so that still means that the NPO broke their treaties by not notifying their treaty partners of their intent.

[OneBallMan]

If you had bothered to read my post and, more importantly, the post I was responding to, you'd realise that my comments were not to further humiliate anyone but to point out some details James Dahl conveniently overlooked in labelling you the Coalition of the Deceived. If you did not speak to the NPO before making a decision, you were not deceived, you just didn't bother checking the story before jumping to conclusions.

And by you, I'm talking to all the alliances that cancelled the treaty without bothering to talk to the NPO that day.

Then again, you never miss an opportunity to wail about mean old Tyga picking on TPF. Even when you have to ignore what I said to do so.

Ahh yes, when Tyga is called out on BS, the classic "You didn't bother to read my post" number. You asked the question on what happened, I answered.

[Tygaland]

Ahh yes, when Tyga is called out on BS, the classic "You didn't bother to read my post" number. You asked the question on what happened, I answered.

I didn't ask what happened, I asked why things happened as they did. You just agreed with what I said happened. What exactly was it I said that was BS?

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Haflinger]

Bigwoody isn't a member of the NPO, though, so that still means that the NPO broke their treaties by not notifying their treaty partners of their intent.

No, it doesn't.

I was in contact with NPO government during the whole crisis. I don't know where this "They weren't talking to us" line came from. Were they just talking to me?

That seems improbable.

[Deadshot]

Is it now?

Why yes it more than likely is. Given their statements and that of allies of theirs one could assume that eventually their time will come. Though all of ours will at some point or another. The world is cyclical after all.

[Autokrator]

Peace? What am I supposed to do with this? I can't remember what it's used for.

Seriously, it's been a pleasure fighting you all. Here's to peace!

-Bama

It's been a pleasure fighting you too. You've given us all the radiotactivity needed for our nation

Here's to peace.

[BamaBuc]

Pssst, it is you doing the whining.

How exactly is Kevin whining? Disagreeing is not whining.

-Bama

[Tygaland]

How exactly is Kevin whining? Disagreeing is not whining.

-Bama

His first post was whining.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[ChairmanHal]

You were not there.

Our biggest failure is that we took 'need to know' to an extreme where we actually did not share information that people DID need to know. This was stupid, it alienated our own members as much as our allies, and it was the biggest victory Vox Populi won in the pre-war period that we did not trust even our closest allies to not be feeding information to our enemies.

Sadly, as post-war confessions show, we were sadly right to feel this way, members and even government of our closest allies WERE feeding information to our enemies, so we didn't really have a choice. It was horrible to watch though, as an ally would ask you a question and you would be told to just defer it. Morale in diplo was terrible, morale alliance wide was pretty low.

Until you are in this situation, you do not have the right to accuse people of anything, you have no idea what it's like. People quit NPO in droves because they couldn't take it anymore.

So your closest allies were left at times as mushroom (in the dark and feed sh..ovels full of organic material) and made decisions on that basis. Among your closest allies, those that have been accused of "cutting and running".

I get it. Some apparently need a road map.

Hindsight being 20/20 of course, I offer the following: knowing that you couldn't count on OPSEC without damaging foreign relations, perhaps the better play was to always assume that what you said would be on the OWF the next day and operate in the open. Having a ready answer when questions arise can be easier than avoiding the questions in the first place.

Some day I hope you have to suffer the same. Until you do, you will never understand.

Oh I know that wasn't directed at me, but I've been there...September 2007, alliances that I thought I could count on turned on my alliance or sat silently by and did nothing. Yeah, I can absolutely relate to that.

[Bob Janova]

No, it doesn't.

I was in contact with NPO government during the whole crisis. I don't know where this "They weren't talking to us" line came from. Were they just talking to me?

That seems improbable.

The fact that at the very least, TOP, MHA and Sparta (all members of Continuum) were not aware of the war before it started means that Continuum was not informed. I am not an expert on which of their other treaties were already cancelled at that point and which contain mandatory notification, but even their PIAT partners (like us) should have been told that they were planning to start a world war under the intelligence clause.

[HeinousOne]

You were not there.

Our biggest failure is that we took 'need to know' to an extreme where we actually did not share information that people DID need to know. This was stupid, it alienated our own members as much as our allies, and it was the biggest victory Vox Populi won in the pre-war period that we did not trust even our closest allies to not be feeding information to our enemies.

Sadly, as post-war confessions show, we were sadly right to feel this way, members and even government of our closest allies WERE feeding information to our enemies, so we didn't really have a choice. It was horrible to watch though, as an ally would ask you a question and you would be told to just defer it. Morale in diplo was terrible, morale alliance wide was pretty low.

Until you are in this situation, you do not have the right to accuse people of anything, you have no idea what it's like. People quit NPO in droves because they couldn't take it anymore.

Some day I hope you have to suffer the same. Until you do, you will never understand.

Oh? Hmm...this sounds really familiar to what someone was saying within NPO once upon a time. Then again he was internally labeled a possible spy then too. Good to know that you guys are now able to speak up and say such without being labeled such and run out.

Let me get the timeline straight.

1. NPO, TPF and TORN attempts to trump up "charges" against OV.

2. OV doesn't give in your bullying.

3. You declare war on OV.

4. Immediately after the NPO realize they've bitten off more then they can chew and attempts to use the 'Undo' button which fails because the NPO won't admit they are in the wrong.

5. Bigwoody supposedly runs around telling everyone NPO is going to 'bail' on the war.

6. The Coalition of Cowards realizes time is urgent. The CoC must cancel all their treaties with the NPO before they 'bail' on the war or something very bad, which we won't go into details about, would have happened.

Makes perfect sense.

His version makes sense, your paraphrasing doesn't exactly. Once again, if you want the rundown talk to your leaders as they will definately know.

[dare0021]

Congrats to all who stuck with their guns.

o/ TPF

[sigelopisan]

TPF, you guys are !@#$@#$ awesome. I'm honor to fight beside you.

[BamaBuc]

His first post was whining.

I don't see it. His point about getting lighter terms if you exit earlier is certainly true. The last line shows his disdain for this practice. In my experience, "whining" is a term usually used to dismiss points made by those who disagree. You're a smart man and you've been here a lot longer than I have, I'm sure you know that's generally the case.

-Bama

[Tygaland]

I don't see it. His point about getting lighter terms if you exit earlier is certainly true. The last line shows his disdain for this practice. In my experience, "whining" is a term usually used to dismiss points made by those who disagree. You're a smart man and you've been here a lot longer than I have, I'm sure you know that's generally the case.

-Bama

No, whining is complaining. Which he was doing. Then when people disagreed with him he accused them of whining.

As for early exit meaning lighter terms, not necessarily. There was no real pattern to it and no real surprise two of the main Hegemony players got the harsher reps. But that has been argued to death.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[BamaBuc]

No, whining is complaining. Which he was doing. Then when people disagreed with him he accused them of whining.

Then he's equally wrong in those accusations. But I just don't see how disagreeing with the way things are/were done equates to whining.

-Bama

[Tygaland]

Then he's equally wrong in those accusations. But I just don't see how disagreeing with the way things are/were done equates to whining.

-Bama

Depends on whether you interpret complaining about the inconsistency of terms and then making pessimistic calls about the future as whining.

Regardless, if he labels others as whiners then I felt it necessary to point out that his post was, in fact, more akin to "whining" than any that the people he labelled as whiners made.