TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[Delta1212]

So had NPO not released GATO right before the war started, GATO should not have kicked their Viceroy out on his $@! until NPO surrendered three months later? And hell, that's just themselves. If it was in my power to help my friends from getting killed, I'd take it and stuff anyone else's ideas about honor. Granted, I wouldn't leave a war without them in the first place, but my point stands.

[Seerow]

Okay I skipped the last 4 pages of reading, but I think I get the gist of the topic, so here's my take currently:

First, on the whole cancellation of the NAP by attacking, while it is a dick move, and while there was another cancellation clause, the wording is "if the treaty is broken it is considered void". To me, a treaty being void implies it never really existed. By breaking the treaty it effectively negated the treaty, such that it does not exist to be considered broken.

Second, if TPF is so insistent on not paying PC a dime, but will surrender on any terms that we agree are reasonable. Here's an alternative that I'd consider reasonable:

-TPF pays 30k tech to MK. That's 20k for PC, 9k for MK, and 1k for the hassle of having to read through all of this crap

-MK redirects the 20k tech being paid to us from Echelon courtesy of allies to PC, to cover their part in this war

-TPF, for making us go through the hassle of redirecting this just to make them happy, will take on the terms that they claim are not so harsh. They will destroy all military wonders, and give up the outside aid that we were so generously willing to allow them.

Since it's just a pride issue, surely they'd be willing to take on harsher terms to maintain their pride?

Edit: To clarify I have no authority to offer these terms as a regular member from MK. This is a public proposal suggested soley by me and may be rejected by my government.

It has also come to my attention we are only getting 10k tech from Echelon, which means another 10k would have to be found elsewhere to make this a clean tradeout.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Seerow

[the rebel]

Dont know if this has already been said, but there is nothing stopping the other alliances at war with TPF from signing a seperate peace treaty away from PC.

Since TPF dont want to pay reps to PC, if a seperate peace was made there would be more pressure on PC and TPF to come to an agreement for the sake of Avalon and the other alliances to recieve their reps.

If not there will be a stalemate and Avalon will get dragged down through the stubbornness of both PC and TPF.

[Master Hakai]

Okay I skipped the last 4 pages of reading, but I think I get the gist of the topic, so here's my take currently:

First, on the whole cancellation of the NAP by attacking, while it is a dick move, and while there was another cancellation clause, the wording is "if the treaty is broken it is considered void". To me, a treaty being void implies it never really existed. By breaking the treaty it effectively negated the treaty, such that it does not exist to be considered broken.

Second, if TPF is so insistent on not paying PC a dime, but will surrender on any terms that we agree are reasonable. Here's an alternative that I'd consider reasonable:

-TPF pays 30k tech to MK. That's 20k for PC, 9k for MK, and 1k for the hassle of having to read through all of this crap

-MK redirects the 20k tech being paid to us from Echelon courtesy of allies to PC, to cover their part in this war

-TPF, for making us go through the hassle of redirecting this just to make them happy, will take on the terms that they claim are not so harsh. They will destroy all military wonders, and give up the outside aid that we were so generously willing to allow them.

Since it's just a pride issue, surely they'd be willing to take on harsher terms to maintain their pride?

Edit: To clarify I have no authority to offer these terms as a regular member from MK. This is a public proposal suggested soley by me and may be rejected by my government.

It has also come to my attention we are only getting 10k tech from Echelon, which means another 10k would have to be found elsewhere to make this a clean tradeout.

BRILLIANT post. 9.78/10.

Also, I just happened to notice the fact that this entire long heated discussion regarding TPF and PC is missing something.. like, say, members of Poison Clan actually paying attention or saying things. I guess that goes to show the dire importance of this, and utter necessity for 32 pages of responses. Awesome.

[sethb]

Dont know if this has already been said, but there is nothing stopping the other alliances at war with TPF from signing a seperate peace treaty away from PC.

Since TPF dont want to pay reps to PC, if a seperate peace was made there would be more pressure on PC and TPF to come to an agreement for the sake of Avalon and the other alliances to recieve their reps.

If not there will be a stalemate and Avalon will get dragged down through the stubbornness of both PC and TPF.

Well, some alliances really don't like to abandon those they fight alongside.

[Finster Baby]

EDIT: Inaccurate statement removed. My bad.

o/ TPF nonetheless.

Edited July 26, 2009 by FinsterBaby

[Yggdrazil]

So had NPO not released GATO right before the war started, GATO should not have kicked their Viceroy out on his $@! until NPO surrendered three months later? And hell, that's just themselves. If it was in my power to help my friends from getting killed, I'd take it and stuff anyone else's ideas about honor. Granted, I wouldn't leave a war without them in the first place, but my point stands.

If my alliance accepts Peace terms and signs a document of surrender my word by proxy was given.Thus I would do everything in my power to meet the terms. This is not superior to your methodology, it's just how I'm wired.

[celtics464]

I'm sure PC is staying well clear of this thread. It won't take much to turn public opinion against them and in favor of TPF.

[Master Hakai]

I'm sure PC is staying well clear of this thread. It won't take much to turn public opinion against them and in favor of TPF.

Yes, it will.

[astronaut jones]

I can provide proof that all of those statements are false, can you provide proof that TPF planned to use that clause to attack PC?

Not the last one you can't. Nice try though!

And I was never greenacres, I just assumed his past identity. he's actually a friend of mine, you can't prove otherwise.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

disregard

Edited July 26, 2009 by Arcturus Jefferson

[astronaut jones]

You know, this almost makes sense.

PC was the ones pushing hardest for harsh reparations from NV back during the Polar Wars. They're doing it again against TPF.

I see the pattern.

Stay classy PC

o/ TPF

uhh, they were? I was in PC at the time. I LEAD pc at the time.. we were pushing for harsh reps against them? Wow, news to me.

[bcndwilson]

I'm sure PC is staying well clear of this thread. It won't take much to turn public opinion against them and in favor of TPF.

If they are that nervous about it then there's probaly a reason the community should be behind TPF now.

[astronaut jones]

That's illogical. It's like asking me to provide evidence that aliens don't exist. I could show you a million pictures that don't have any aliens in them, but I can't "prove" that aliens don't exist. The other guy, however, only has to show me one picture of an alien (that's not shopped). I could show you a thousand screenshots of the TPF forums that show us not discussing using that loophole. You only need one piece of proof. You made the accusation, the burden of proof lies on you. You can keep your suspicions, but if you can't prove them they don't mean much. Over my CN career I've had all sorts of reasons to believe that so-and-so was planning to do such-and-such. That's fine, but if I can't prove it, it's only a suspicion.

-Bama

Well, then you can't prove that what you're saying is the truth, so why should I believe you?

me dumb. me no get my grade 10. please explains for mr. astrojohns why you no tell truth and tell lies?

[Finster Baby]

uhh, they were? I was in PC at the time. I LEAD pc at the time.. we were pushing for harsh reps against them? Wow, news to me.

EDIT: Inaccurate remarks removed, see further in the thread.

Edited July 26, 2009 by FinsterBaby

[Master Hakai]

If they are that nervous about it then there's probaly a reason the community should be behind TPF now.

I'm assuming it's more apathy and "loltpf" than anything else. Not sure why I'm not doing the same, actually.. why do I waste my time???

Good try, though.

[astronaut jones]

And I was the one spearheading the negoations.

And yes, they were.

Really?

Because I don't remember asking for !@#$. You sure? You really, really, really sure about that? Unless I'm mistaken and I was never the leader of poison clan, I don't remember pushing for harsh reps.

Also, shouldn't you be blaming me for that, if I in fact did? I'm not in PC anymore. I'm still the same person, atleast I think I am, I'll go ask my friend, the former player known as greenacres if I am, maybe I'm not. Anyway, shouldn't that be put on me then, and not them?

Yeahhhh.. that would be best, don't you think? That would make more sense, don't you think? Oh wait, you're not trying to make sense, you're just trying to be outraged.

yeahhh..

[celtics464]

Yes, it will.

I disagree. No one has an ounce of sympathy for PC. That's not going to change. Either TPF gets disbanded and the karma alliances get nothing or PC gets nothing. Eventually someone will get sick of holding their alliance back for the sake of PC.

[sethb]

No one has an ounce of sympathy for PC.

I do.

[flak attack]

I'm sure PC is staying well clear of this thread. It won't take much to turn public opinion against them and in favor of TPF.

Actually it probably has to do with the fact that an eternal war with TPF is probably the preferred outcome for PC.

I disagree. No one has an ounce of sympathy for PC. That's not going to change. Either TPF gets disbanded and the karma alliances get nothing or PC gets nothing. Eventually someone will get sick of holding their alliance back for the sake of PC.

We don't leave a man on the field. Until we all have a peace settlement, none of us do.

Edited July 26, 2009 by flak attack

[Master Hakai]

I disagree. No one has an ounce of sympathy for PC. That's not going to change. Either TPF gets disbanded and the karma alliances get nothing or PC gets nothing. Eventually someone will get sick of holding their alliance back for the sake of PC.

Unfortunately, just saying things doesn't make them true. I wish it did, though

[astronaut jones]

I disagree. No one has an ounce of sympathy for PC. That's not going to change. Either TPF gets disbanded and the karma alliances get nothing or PC gets nothing. Eventually someone will get sick of holding their alliance back for the sake of PC.

PC isn't going around these forums playing the sympathy/victim card though. They're not asking for sympathy, yet TPF is, in virtually every post by their members, in virtually every thread regarding karma/pc/tpf.

[celtics464]

Really?

Because I don't remember asking for !@#$. You sure? You really, really, really sure about that? Unless I'm mistaken and I was never the leader of poison clan, I don't remember pushing for harsh reps.

Also, shouldn't you be blaming me for that, if I in fact did? I'm not in PC anymore. I'm still the same person, atleast I think I am, I'll go ask my friend, the former player known as greenacres if I am, maybe I'm not. Anyway, shouldn't that be put on me then, and not them?

Yeahhhh.. that would be best, don't you think? That would make more sense, don't you think? Oh wait, you're not trying to make sense, you're just trying to be outraged.

yeahhh..

Well then I guess bringing up any of TPF's history is also irrelevant since they had different leadership as well at the time. Isn't that what Mhawk has been saying all along in regards to this specific argument but yet all of you keep trying to come up with BS excuse after another as to why they should still be punished for what the alliance did in the past.

[celtics464]

PC isn't going around these forums playing the sympathy/victim card though. They're not asking for sympathy, yet TPF is, in virtually every post by their members, in virtually every thread regarding karma/pc/tpf.

Thats because they wont get any and they know it.

[astronaut jones]

Well then I guess bringing up any of TPF's history is also irrelevant since they had different leadership as well at the time. Isn't that what Mhawk has been saying all along in regards to this specific argument but yet all of you keep trying to come up with BS excuse after another as to why they should still be punished for what the alliance did in the past.

I never said that. I said if that's his reason for hating PC, then the blame is mine and he should be mad at me instead of at PC. And I stated that, as the leader of the alliance at the time, I don't recall pushing for any sort of harsh reps, or any reps on NV at all.

If he wants to hate on PC for tech raiding, that's entirely different. Go right ahead.

[edit] wow, I can't believe I spelled hait instead of hate.. I must be retarded today.. moreso than usual

[edit2] He admitted his mistake, he wasn't lying, and I apologize for accusing him of doing so, he was just mistaken, which is perfectly acceptable considering that what we were talking about happened a fairly long time ago. My apologies to him for accusing him of lying, and word to him for admitting his mistake.

Edited July 26, 2009 by astronaut jones