TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[Vilien]

Is it better to break some types of treaty?

A treaty that is a lie is no treaty at all.

[JBone]

No, the precedence TPF is trying to set is that a defeated alliance can dicate their surrenders terms. Obviously, you will not succeed at this.

Um....that's been done before, ask Ivan, and it actually turned out quite well, for a good long while.

[JBone]

A treaty that is a lie is no treaty at all.

Oh c'mon Vilien......a treaty that says if you want to kill us do us the courtesy of cancelling this first and abiding by the terms that you signed is not a lie, just a precaution, for both signatories.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

GOONS was going to be at war forever. OcUK was going to be at war forever. Look at how that turned out for them. Not everyone that goes through eternal war comes out of it like Fark and FAN did. Most don't.

Well if they disband then they aren't still at war making my point valid that nothing is forever. I just happen to think that they would have disbanded by now if they were going to. Could i be wrong? definitely. Only time will tell.

My personal opinion is that PC pulled a BS move by attacking TPF in the way that they did, and I can fully understand their stance on this issue. I also believe that PC isn't going to back down, and TPF isn't causing enough damage or problems to PCs allies* for them to tell PC to back down so that they can get out of the war. I also believe that PC has yet to do anything vile enough in the minds of their allies* for them to be abandoned to fight TPF alone.

*by allies, i mean those they are fighting with, not those by treaty

So basically i don't see any resolution of this war happening any time soon, and I think it will eventually end in either a)disbandment of TPF, or B) peace so that their enemies can focus their resources on another conflict

[PrototyoeRuler]

TPF doesn't care about Avalon? Wow that's a new one for me.

Don't you realize you are nothing but a pawn? Let's be honest do you really think TPF plans out its foreign affairs, or any sort of long term goals with Avalon in mind? No. The do whats best for themselves as this thread clearly displays. Pride > allies.

Is it better to break some types of treaty?

The NAP was signed at gun point. Would you honor a treaty you didn't believe in and wasn't signed in good faith?

[Vilien]

Oh c'mon Vilien......a treaty that says if you want to kill us do us the courtesy of cancelling this first and abiding by the terms that you signed is not a lie, just a precaution, for both signatories.

I'm sorry, I suppose I didn't make myself clear enough. You forced that treaty upon PC at gunpoint. They had no moral or ethical duty to honor that sham of a treaty.

[JBone]

I also believe that PC has yet to do anything vile enough in the minds of their allies* for them to be abandoned to fight TPF alone.

Not yet.

[JBone]

I'm sorry, I suppose I didn't make myself clear enough. You forced that treaty upon PC at gunpoint. They had no moral or ethical duty to honor that sham of a treaty.

We absolutely did not. Were you there? Did you have any part in the negotiations that lead up to those terms? Were you privy to #world or Sanctum? That NAP was offered to save PC from the other 11!tybillion alliances that wanted them dead.

TPF, as a member of Q, put that NAP out as a show of good faith....and as a message to all of our allies that we were willing to let bygones be bygones...and they should respect that wish.

Please don't talk of things that you really have no clue, it just makes you sound silly.

[kulomascovia]

Justified doesn't come into it, TPF lost, an aggressive war at that, TPF pays reps.

You don't like the alliance you are paying reps too? Boo hoo.

You think they did you dirty? Boo hoo.

Do you think anybody ever getting anything other than white peace was ever happy with their surrender terms?

Heres a Quarter call somebody who cares.

Maybe you'll find sympathy, then again maybe you'll find yet more people telling you to stop whining and accept terms that amount to a slap on the wrist.

I would like to point out that TPF wasn't the one who brought this out to the public. They didn't even mention the terms until Azghul brought them to the public's attention.

[TypoNinja]

Um....that's been done before, ask Ivan, and it actually turned out quite well, for a good long while.

The big differnce being in GW1 that the military conflict wasn't really going anywhere for either side. TPF on the other hand is a shattered and broken shell of an alliance with no power to do much beyond beg for better terms and act indignant.

I would like to point out that TPF wasn't the one who brought this out to the public. They didn't even mention the terms until Azghul brought them to the public's attention.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Edited July 29, 2009 by TypoNinja

[kulomascovia]

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Excuse me if I was wrong, but it seemed like you were telling TPF to stop whining and accept the terms. I said that TPF wasn't the one who brought this issue to the public, so you can't accuse them of whining. They're not asking for anyones sympathy. In fact, if Azaghul didn't say anything about it, I'm sure that TPF would have continued to fight without complaining at all.

[pooksland]

We absolutely did not. Were you there? Did you have any part in the negotiations that lead up to those terms? Were you privy to #world or Sanctum? That NAP was offered to save PC from the other 11!tybillion alliances that wanted them dead.

TPF, as a member of Q, put that NAP out as a show of good faith....and as a message to all of our allies that we were willing to let bygones be bygones...and they should respect that wish.

Please don't talk of things that you really have no clue, it just makes you sound silly.

Actually JBone the point of the NAP was not to save PC from the billion of alliances that wanted us dead (and probably still might). The NAP would of done nothing to prevent them from attacking, since the clause in TC only counts if there is mandatory defense in the treaty. Besides our old MDoAP with Valhalla already protected us from attacks from TC alliances (unless to say of course an alliance went to them and tried to get them to drop the treaty in order to roll us).

[Bower3aj]

We absolutely did not. Were you there? Did you have any part in the negotiations that lead up to those terms? Were you privy to #world or Sanctum? That NAP was offered to save PC from the other 11!tybillion alliances that wanted them dead.

TPF, as a member of Q, put that NAP out as a show of good faith....and as a message to all of our allies that we were willing to let bygones be bygones...and they should respect that wish.

Please don't talk of things that you really have no clue, it just makes you sound silly.

you realize that a NAP protects them in no way right?

it just says you won't fight them, it doesn't say anything about any other alliance.

So you forced a treaty on them, not for their protection, but for your convenience

[JBone]

The big differnce being in GW1 that the military conflict wasn't really going anywhere for either side. TPF on the other hand is a shattered and broken shell of an alliance with no power to do much beyond beg for better terms and act indignant.

We are shattered and broken....but still have many friends in this world...and a strong and committed core member base.

No begging here, just patience.

If it's not the course of action you and others would take....so be it.

We chose a different path...who are you to deny us that?

[mhawk]

Don't you realize you are nothing but a pawn? Let's be honest do you really think TPF plans out its foreign affairs, or any sort of long term goals with Avalon in mind? No. The do whats best for themselves as this thread clearly displays. Pride > allies.

The NAP was signed at gun point. Would you honor a treaty you didn't believe in and wasn't signed in good faith?

Point 1) Avalon asked to join this fight with us. I've worked with them for well over a year now on many issues including working very closely to try to get them involved in the formation of the purple PEACE bloc. To say we don't value them greatly or that I personally have disregard for their alliance is completely false and merely you attempting to fabricate a different reality.

2) There was no gun pointed at PC to sign a nap.

[mhawk]

you realize that a NAP protects them in no way right?

it just says you won't fight them, it doesn't say anything about any other alliance.

So you forced a treaty on them, not for their protection, but for your convenience

So this has gone from TPF was plotting to attack PC around the same time PC attacked TPF to.... TPF is guilty of not providing protection to PC therefore they need to pay for that crime?

We forced no treaty on them, and at any time they could have canceled it and on many times I asked if they wanted to cancel it or sincerely work on relations, each time they refused and said they truly wanted better relations.

Session Start: Sun Apr 05 00:56:43 2009

Session Ident: Twisted

01[00:56] <mhawk> hey twisted

01[00:56] <mhawk> ya there/

[00:57] <Twisted> Hey what's up?

01[00:58] <mhawk> I'm a bit miffed so i want to run something by ya

[00:58] <Twisted> Sure, what's up

01[00:59] <mhawk> im tired of folks double talking to us and acting against what they say

01[00:59] <mhawk> so I want to just settle our differences and us get an understanding

01[00:59] <mhawk> if you guys can not get over what slayer did

01[00:59] <mhawk> I'll accept that

01[00:59] <mhawk> and we'll meet on the field some where

01[00:59] <mhawk> I'll go ahead and cancel our nap so you dont have to make superceeding treaties

01[01:00] <mhawk> if you think there is something do do

01[01:00] <mhawk> to do besides kill each other

[01:00] <Twisted> Wait, do you want to talk or are you canceling the NAP?

01[01:00] <mhawk> and endless trolling

01[01:00] <mhawk> on both sides

01[01:00] <mhawk> i'd like us to figure something out

[01:00] <Twisted> Ahh okay

01[01:01] <mhawk> because this stuff of me saying i'm leader of tpf we no kill pc and ctb saying "im leader pc, we no kill tpf"

01[01:01] <mhawk> is getting stupid

01[01:01] <mhawk> I'd like to get !@#$ sorted out

01[01:01] <mhawk> im tired of the "old guard" bs

01[01:01] <mhawk> not the alliance

01[01:01] <mhawk> but slayer tbb ect

01[01:01] <mhawk> being the start of !@#$

01[01:01] <mhawk> that happened 8 months before i joined

[flak attack]

Um....that's been done before, ask Ivan, and it actually turned out quite well, for a good long while.

So you're telling us that we should learn from the CoaLUEtion and let you dictate terms? I would have you ask them how it turned out but because of their mistake then they are no longer with us.

Edited July 29, 2009 by flak attack

[TypoNinja]

We chose a different path...who are you to deny us that?

Oh no by all means take it, just don't pretend it was anything but your choice, or that the terms to get you out of war were anything but reasonable. You are fully allowed to suicide your alliance if you so choose, just don't try and make out like its anybodies fault but your own.

[Kzoppistan]

Oh no by all means take it, just don't pretend it was anything but your choice, or that the terms to get you out of war were anything but reasonable. You are fully allowed to suicide your alliance if you so choose, just don't try and make out like its anybodies fault but your own.

When asked, years afterward, why his charge at Gettysburg Someplacehere failed, General Pickett Somebody said: "I've always thought the Yankees Opposing Alliance had something to do with it."

Edited November 21, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[BamaBuc]

Don't you realize you are nothing but a pawn? Let's be honest do you really think TPF plans out its foreign affairs, or any sort of long term goals with Avalon in mind? No. The do whats best for themselves as this thread clearly displays. Pride > allies.

The NAP was signed at gun point. Would you honor a treaty you didn't believe in and wasn't signed in good faith?

I'm always scratching my head at these types of comments. Where do you get the idea that we're so conniving? We just got done showing the world exactly how much we care about our allies. I'm sure you'll say we just did it for PR, but is the destruction of TPF worth a couple PR points? Let's face it: Within like a month, we'd gained all the new respect we were gonna gain. We weren't gonna convince anyone we hadn't convinced already. There was no logical reason whatsoever to keep fighting. NPO is hardly gonna be a great political asset down the road. So I'm scratching my head as to where you get the idea that we don't care about our allies.

As for the NAP, check your facts. Everyone (myself included) has been acting under the assumption that the NAP was pushed on PC as a surrender term. I went back and looked, and that's not the case. The NAP was part of an agreement to let PC out of surrender terms early. I guess you could say it was forced in that PC would otherwise have stayed under terms... But there was no gun pointed at their head.

Furthermore, if a treaty that's not "signed in good faith" is worthless, then do you think it's okay to violate surrender terms? All terms are "forced" in the sense that if you don't accept them, you have to keep fighting. Would you be okay with it if all of our allies broke their terms and attacked PC? After all, the treaties forcing them not to re-enter the Karma War were "forced." I don't think you'd consider that honorable. And neither would I. Your word is your word. No one can force you to give your word.

-Bama

[R&R-Viking]

[00:58] <mhawk> I'm a bit miffed so i want to run something by ya

[00:58] <Twisted> Sure, what's up

01[00:59] <mhawk> im tired of folks double talking to us and acting against what they say

01[00:59] <mhawk> so I want to just settle our differences and us get an understanding

01[00:59] <mhawk> if you guys can not get over what slayer did

01[00:59] <mhawk> I'll accept that

01[00:59] <mhawk> and we'll meet on the field some where

I accept that, let's fight in the future.

Stay classy, man.

[BamaBuc]

I accept that, let's fight in the future.

Stay classy, man.

Huh? All he basically said is "listen, if you guys want to fight us so bad, just cancel the treaty."

-Bama

[Bob Janova]

There was no logical reason whatsoever to keep fighting.

Glad you came around

[pooksland]

As for the NAP, check your facts. Everyone (myself included) has been acting under the assumption that the NAP was pushed on PC as a surrender term. I went back and looked, and that's not the case. The NAP was part of an agreement to let PC out of surrender terms early. I guess you could say it was forced in that PC would otherwise have stayed under terms... But there was no gun pointed at their head.

I actually just went and doubled checked my logs and I will confirm this fact. The NAP was signed to let PC off of the remaining surrender terms early, although I didnt find some other interesting things.

[mhawk]

I actually just went and doubled checked my logs and I will confirm this fact. The NAP was signed to let PC off of the remaining surrender terms early, although I didnt find some other interesting things.

The only surrender term that remained at that time was a no tech raid rule.