Regarding peace terms with TPF

[nutkase]

Most people want TPF to accept these terms, nobody around likes killing off communities anymoe

I think PC would say differently

[WarriorConcept]

I think PC would say differently

PC seems to want them to accept the terms, considering they offered them.

[nutkase]

PC seems to want them to accept the terms, considering they offered them.

Yet they want the biggest slice of the reps considering they declared on TPF while also still holding a questionable treaty

Edited July 26, 2009 by nutkase

[WarriorConcept]

Yet they want the biggest slice of the reps considering they declared on TPF while also still holding a questionable treaty

Yes, after TPF kicked off the whole global war they declared on TPF. They legally canceled their treaty and after taking massive losses are asking for reps, which is the norm, and which can be aided massively through TPF's allies.

[Tygaland]

Yet they want the biggest slice of the reps considering they declared on TPF while also still holding a questionable treaty

The treaty was voided the moment they attacked. That aside, who gets wehat share of reps doesn't really matter that much. I've seen alliances who enter a war late demand a large chuck of reps from heavily depleted foes. The fact of the matter is, the reps are easily payable should TPF choose to do so.

I don't think PC have won many fans for some of the things they have done but that does not deflect from the fact that TPF have some fairly simple terms to accept and move on.

[Taget]

I don't have any differences with STA at all. I rather like all the members I've spoken with. I don't have a grudge, I just want white to be better. With STA woulbe far better than without for sure, but a solidly unified color would attract alliances. Who knows, mebbe TPF should move. I'm just kicking out thoughts.

Nobody is changing colors. You're both staying white whether you want to or not.

As for terms. They are negotiations between two sides and hopefully after the public posturing is done some compromise can be obtained behind closed doors.

[nutkase]

Yes, after TPF kicked off the whole global war they declared on TPF. They legally canceled their treaty and after taking massive losses are asking for reps, which is the norm, and which can be aided massively through TPF's allies.

they cannot expect to declare war and not take losses, its a common act caused by war. Also TPF kicking off the global war??? I think you may need to check the old DoW's during the start of the war

tyga, I am not questioning the actual terms and I aswell see them as reasonable but the reasoning as to why people are getting so tied up as to whether TPF accept them or not.

"the treaty was voided the moment they attacked" well this is also questionable, I don't want to start a e-lawyering competition about it but I would see that any alliance that was in TPF's position not being happy if that was used against them.

Also to be honest, I was not a fan of either PC or TPF before the war. Though the conduct of TPF during the war made me change my mind, while the actions of PC just enforced my dislike.

Edited July 26, 2009 by nutkase

[Tygaland]

tyga, I am not questioning the actual terms and I aswell see them as reasonable but the reasoning as to why people are getting so tied up as to whether TPF accept them or not.

Because if nothing is said then TPF would use the continued war as an example of Karma being just like the Hegemony when, now that the information is public, people can see that TPF is choosing to remain at war rather than accept easily handled terms and reparations.

[WarriorConcept]

they cannot expect to declare war and not take losses, its a common act caused by war. Also TPF kicking off the global war??? I think you may need to check the old DoW's during the start of the war

tyga, I am not questioning the actual terms and I aswell see them as reasonable but the reasoning as to why people are getting so tied up as to whether TPF accept them or not.

"the treaty was voided the moment they attacked" well this is also questionable, I don't want to start a e-lawyering competition about it but I would see that any alliance that was in TPF's position not being happy if that was used against them.

Also to be honest, I was not a fan of either PC or TPF before the war. Though the conduct of TPF during the war made me change my mind, while the actions of PC just enforced my dislike.

Well yes, and reps are a common act done after war as well. You're right though, TORN and NPO started off the original war and TPF backed them up in the initial negotiations and the fighting later on. Shame OV rolled the hard six, eh?

[nutkase]

Well yes, and reps are a common act done after war as well. You're right though, TORN and NPO started off the original war and TPF backed them up in the initial negotiations and the fighting later on. Shame OV rolled the hard six, eh?

I dont really care who rolled the hard six, war is war.

Everyone has there pinnacle and there downfall as I see it. Its the way they take it, which it what I look for.

[nutkase]

Because if nothing is said then TPF would use the continued war as an example of Karma being just like the Hegemony when, now that the information is public, people can see that TPF is choosing to remain at war rather than accept easily handled terms and reparations.

I am not talking for the masses but I would consider it more of a TPF/PC now rather then a TPF/Karma

[WarriorConcept]

I dont really care who rolled the hard six, war is war.

Everyone has there pinnacle and there downfall as I see it. Its the way they take it, which it what I look for.

Whether they want to rise again or stay in the flames, yup.

[Un4Gvn1]

Probably wherever they damn well please. But, it just goes to show that mhawk was blowing smoke out of his $@! the whole time with that "we've changed, we sincerely tried to make things work between PC and TPF" nonsense he's been spouting off and that I've been calling !@#$%^&* since he started.

Given the fact Pezstar said he/she knew about it (saw logs) and Ayrrie responding all high and mighty ... I am going to agree with your assessment.

I shall also demand to know how in hell I missed the information/logs/whatever.

[Trigger]

I think PC would say differently

I think you would be wrong. Just saying...

[Azaghul]

I've been very busy and don't have the energy to respond to posts individually, but a few points of clarification to be made:

- Confusion on what the aid terms was: I had been handling most discussion, than Archon did for a few days, than he got extremely busy again so I took it over again. Anyway the day before this post I talked with PC and others in the channel for coming up with terms, and we agreed to allow outside aid (which we largely had anyway and that may not have been communicated to Archon earlier) and at that point I talked to Mhawk and he rejected even terms with that. He didn't ask for clarification and in doing so the acknowledgment is assumed that what I gave him to him really was what the offer is, since it was the last thing told to him.

- CCC reps: I typed the wrong word to Mhawk, but I included that they would go for white peace after terms were signed in that sentence with Mhawk, which would preclude reps, and he didn't ask for clarification.

- At one point Mhawk was saying he refused to pay any reps to PC, though in our last conversation he changed his position to the total reps figure being unacceptable, even with allowing outside aid.

- I looked it up and couldn't find any records of Elysium warring MK, if it did happen it was so minor as to not really be relevant.

- I discussed this post with PC and others at war with TPF before posting it, and PC supported it being posted. My main purpose in doing so was to preempt accusations that we're doing what NPO did to FAN and questions about why TPF was still at war, which I believe would eventually have surfaced on these forums and resulted in everything coming out and the arguments being made anyway. I also predicted the common reaction (bewilderment at TPF not taking them when they are as light as they are) and wanted TPF to see it.

Edit: Just saw that TPF announcement, maybe the refusal for any reps to PC is still the issue and mhawk just didn't use that in our last discussion.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Azaghul

[mushi]

Second, the war is about retribution. No one can argue against that with a straight face. I'd say the tech reps to PC are probably the best example of this retribution being enacted--there is no doubt that TPF has wronged PC (and to be fair, PC have been dicks in return, but they did win). I'd say it's also an absolute certainty that TPF would not have made a sincere attempt to bury the hatchet with PC after the NAP debacle without something like this happening. I know for a fact that TPF had a load of logs that they were going to use to try and isolate PC during this war so they could smash them. I don't see why Karma has any reason to lower that term more than it has been.

We knew TPF was after us the whole time.

What I know is if TPF wanted to destroy PC they could did so I don't get why PC as taunted and abused and PC claim inocence for what happened in their relations with TPF is disgustingly laughable.

We know that if TPF could destroy someone it would. Dont tell me TPF saw it in there heart to let PC go. It just knew the PR disaster would be too huge, also on many occasions CTB worked it out with mhawk/slayer.

I think PC would say differently

Nah we actually want to give peace to TPF and move on. There is no hatred in our hearts for TPF.

Yet they want the biggest slice of the reps considering they declared on TPF while also still holding a questionable treaty

We were left out to the dogs in the first 24 hours. All the alliances that were spouse to help us backed away on that update. Don't believe me? check the DoW's on TPF that day. We were the only ones, Each nation declared on 3 targets, because we were by our self's. Then within 3 hours, Valhalla and Zenith Piled onto PC nations. Our wars average was 4.5 per nation, with second wave still in peace mode. Dont you go on about PC has done nothing. We probably done the most on the Karma side.

-Anyone can look at hoo's goodbye thread where he clearly stated that the clause was put in to hit us. Its been pointed out TPF was collecting logs to attack us during this war.

-If you dont believe that TPF wanted PC, tell me that 1 week before the Karma war started, everyone in CN knows that PC was about to get hit by duckroll at update. We out maneuvered our way out of a war. if TPF needs help remembering what occasion it was, it was TFO-IRAN drama.

[Guido]

You realize that you were the ones posting that thread complaining about terms right? This thread is being posted by the ones giving out the terms making sure no one accuses them of not giving fair terms. Perhaps a viable analogy will help your argument next time.

And NPO did it to make sure that they were trying to achieve peace but they thought the terms were a bit unfair. They didn't want people to think that the leadership was letting the members rot in eternal war and they were trying.

So both parties had valid reasons for posting. I'm not saying I disagree with this being posted, it is just as valid as NPO's terms being posted. I am simply pointing out the fact that the NPO was bashed for posting theirs, for a pretty valid reason to inform the community of what was going on, and yet Karma is not bashed for posting theirs, for informing the community of what was going on.

Pretty similar circumstances, just a different side.

[DrunkMonkey]

Given the fact Pezstar said he/she knew about it (saw logs) and Ayrrie responding all high and mighty ... I am going to agree with your assessment.

I shall also demand to know how in hell I missed the information/logs/whatever.

You're kidding right? There is no way you can actually be serious...

Maybe it's because you have a massive personal agenda and don't actually care about TPF? Maybe its because you've never been an important member of TPF gov nor in position to actually have any kind of real influence? Considering you were the one that tried to sell out TPF gov to Crohl and got log dumped on the OWF. You've been such a loyal member, trying to incite revolt with the membership to forward your own desires to be the new E-Jesus. Personally, I'll never forget how you threw everyone under the bus and claimed TPF was dead and you were done, because people weren't as hardcore as you. Then you move on to make the suggestion that NPO take peace temporarily so that TPF can surrender.

Now you're schmoozing with TPF's enemies. Do you have like a traitor's punch card you're trying to fill?

However you just never seem to learn that trust is earned... never given. You should start a morally just alliance so you can spend your time going on holy crusades and if it need be, dying for the sins of the meek.

Edited July 26, 2009 by DrunkMonkey

[xoindotnler]

We were left out to the dogs in the first 24 hours. All the alliances that were spouse to help us backed away on that update. Don't believe me? check the DoW's on TPF that day. We were the only ones, Each nation declared on 3 targets, because we were by our self's. Then within 3 hours, Valhalla and Zenith Piled onto PC nations. Our wars average was 4.5 per nation, with second wave still in peace mode. Dont you go on about PC has done nothing. We probably done the most on the Karma side.

Sound familiar but I can't put my finger on it.....

[Jtkode]

I think everyone wants peace, as do I, this war should end, but I agree, white peace is not reasonable given the circumstances.

[BamaBuc]

I think everyone wants peace, as do I, this war should end, but I agree, white peace is not reasonable given the circumstances.

Nor do we expect white peace.

-Bama

[Master Hakai]

Keep on fighting, TPF. Don't surrender!! Because it actually matters. SO MUCH.

[Lord GVChamp]

I think everyone wants peace, as do I, this war should end, but I agree, white peace is not reasonable given the circumstances.

Why not?

The arguments are simple:

1. TPF is evil

2. Attacking alliances need to rebuild

3. MK wants tech back

3 just goes back into 1. The answer to that is more fighting, unless the "defending" alliance is offering sufficient "sweeteners" to make war the not-best-option. Which definitely cuts against the whole "we want peace!" thing.

2 is simply extortion.

Reparations are stupid. If you can't shake hands and say "alright, our beef is over" at the end of the day, then you should still be fighting.

[TwistedRebelDB47]

I think PC would say differently

If you think I take this grudge match that seriously that I'd want to end the entire alliance, you are mistaken. I still have my share of friends at TPF, and as I've said to some of the old guard in JBone and Lord Fred, I am not trying to destroy TPF. I'd like our rivalry to continue. At the same time, they know just as well as I know the history we have had.

Poison Clan has been more than willing to accept the term offers Archon has mentioned - for not wanting to destroy TPF, and for my great respect for Archon.

I do not want this war to continue. They have taken more than enough damage, as have we - but I'm proud to say we had a lot of fun doing it. At the same time I feel we have given up a lot of different things for TPF terms wise, and I think the reps are fitting for the war and for a long, long past. For those of you that don't know the past, be sure to ask both sides - you know each will have their own side to the story.

Until Mhawk comes to his senses, I grudgingly have to admit this war will slowly continue on...

[Master Hakai]

If you think I take this grudge match that seriously that I'd want to end the entire alliance, you are mistaken. I still have my share of friends at TPF, and as I've said to some of the old guard in JBone and Lord Fred, I am not trying to destroy TPF. I'd like our rivalry to continue. At the same time, they know just as well as I know the history we have had.

Poison Clan has been more than willing to accept the term offers Archon has mentioned - for not wanting to destroy TPF, and for my great respect for Archon.

I do not want this war to continue. They have taken more than enough damage, as have we - but I'm proud to say we had a lot of fun doing it. At the same time I feel we have given up a lot of different things for TPF terms wise, and I think the reps are fitting for the war and for a long, long past. For those of you that don't know the past, be sure to ask both sides - you know each will have their own side to the story.

Until Mhawk comes to his senses, I grudgingly have to admit this war will slowly continue on...

Very classy.