Provost Zakharov Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Expected number of switches to get the resource you want = 2.25 (0 being you get the one you want right away). Edited July 28, 2009 by Provost Zakharov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Zakharov Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Rough calculations for the moon base/colony/mine for my nation (20k infra, 13k tech, agricultural resource set = 3 earth resources for Radon) initial investment: 1.2 billion additional (net) earnings accrued over the lifespan of the wonders: 4.0 billion effective ROI: 233% That's assuming 75% average hotspot efficiency, and the 90 day period it takes to get all 3 wonders set up for the first time has been amortized out. Additionally, the profitable infrastructure limit increases from 20k to 23k, and the curve becomes fairly flat all the way to 25k. woo more soldiers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Miller Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 So I tracked down two other rulers with the Mars Base and found their location on the map. They are in the same exact spot as me, so apparently there is one and only one landing zone. This make finding the hotspot a little more difficult as some of us will have to move before we discover any additional information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 I don't think these wonders are going to be even in the question after a second thought, as my nation is loaded with tech. The amount of tech doesn't even seem to play any roll in these new wonders, just adding on additional costs. I can understand scaling it to infra, since the more infra you have the more you will benefit, but charging for tech when in reality it should help you get up there is ridiculous. Are these wonders supposed to penalize high tech nations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelrat Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 I don't think these wonders are going to be even in the question after a second thought, as my nation is loaded with tech. The amount of tech doesn't even seem to play any roll in these new wonders, just adding on additional costs. I can understand scaling it to infra, since the more infra you have the more you will benefit, but charging for tech when in reality it should help you get up there is ridiculous. Are these wonders supposed to penalize high tech nations? Do the math for your nation as i did for mine, it says: Mars route Total wonder costs 2,248,800,000 Days to pay off at average ~290 Moon route Total wonder costs 1,124,400,000 Days to pay off at average ~160 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesusaurus Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Do the math for your nation as i did for mine, it says:Mars route Total wonder costs 2,248,800,000 Days to pay off at average ~290 Moon route Total wonder costs 1,124,400,000 Days to pay off at average ~160 You also may want to take into account the lifespan of the wonder (Martian vs. Lunar) in addition to the net bonus you receive in relation to the lifespan and cost. Personally, given that the martian wonders provide a larger happiness boost and last 2x longer for exactly 2x the cost, I see them as being better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammykhalifa Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Actually, I quite like the fact that you can't quite calculate out the precise cash flow from this. That's what causes the rigid "best" strategies we see in improvement building, trades, and such. Also, if all we're interested in is maximizing efficency, why aren't we all building furnaces or something instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesusaurus Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Actually, I quite like the fact that you can't quite calculate out the precise cash flow from this. That's what causes the rigid "best" strategies we see in improvement building, trades, and such. Also, if all we're interested in is maximizing efficency, why aren't we all building furnaces or something instead? Because that 'feature' hasnt been implemented... yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelrat Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) You also may want to take into account the lifespan of the wonder (Martian vs. Lunar) in addition to the net bonus you receive in relation to the lifespan and cost. Personally, given that the martian wonders provide a larger happiness boost and last 2x longer for exactly 2x the cost, I see them as being better. It depends on several things, your trade set and if you like to invest into 2 and a half year in advanced. There are clearly better Moon routes than Mars ones independent of the lifespan. And you are right it´s not all about the ROI. Actually, I quite like the fact that you can't quite calculate out the precise cash flow from this. That's what causes the rigid "best" strategies we see in improvement building, trades, and such. Also, if all we're interested in is maximizing efficency, why aren't we all building furnaces or something instead? Who said i couldn´t and CN is alll about maximizing effects so your nation is better preped for any opponent. Edited July 28, 2009 by Steelrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drai Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 You also may want to take into account the lifespan of the wonder (Martian vs. Lunar) in addition to the net bonus you receive in relation to the lifespan and cost. Personally, given that the martian wonders provide a larger happiness boost and last 2x longer for exactly 2x the cost, I see them as being better. But assuming that when the military wonders come out, and the lunar ones are higher powered but have a shorter life span, this would make the lunar wonders better militarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepiB Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) A few questions: So there is only one hotspot on mars, and the efficiency is 50% at 6650 miles over the surface(the exact opposite side of the planet), 75% at 3325 miles, and 100% at 0 miles? and 1080 miles 50%, 540 miles 75% for the moon? Is the influence of the hotspot much more localized, like anything more than 50 miles away is 50%? Is the distance measured as something other than a great circle, like a straight line or loxodrome(straight line on mercator map) for example? Edited July 29, 2009 by SleepiB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Zakharov Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Question: what exactly does a "gradual increasing/decreasing" happiness mean. For example, if it's gradually increasing to +5, does that mean it starts at 0 and linearly increases to +5, so that the average is +2.5? The wording in the information index needs to be changed to eliminate this ambiguity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax ME Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 i still don't understand why there is a timer on these new wonders. really you'd think there would be timer in which the colony wont make it and if you 'build enough' or 'send enough' to the colony it would make it. its more likely to lose the manhattan project as it was 'destroyed' in the past whilst the colony idea has never been feasible. :/ also, i think it'd be neat to go the othe direction. (toward the sun) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelrat Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Question: what exactly does a "gradual increasing/decreasing" happiness mean. For example, if it's gradually increasing to +5, does that mean it starts at 0 and linearly increases to +5, so that the average is +2.5? The wording in the information index needs to be changed to eliminate this ambiguity. You hit the nail, it´s the big question . I guess we have to do some data collection to get the answer but maybe a Mod or Admin will tell us. Edited July 29, 2009 by Steelrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxley Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Well I have a few answers... But I have also given out alot of answers already... I'll flag admin down at some point and direct him here and he can decide if it's for you to figure out or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viluin Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 You hit the nail, it´s the big question . I guess we have to do some data collection to get the answer but maybe a Mod or Admin will tell us. I think it means it starts at 0 or 1 happiness and just increases a tiny bit every day, or every x days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Witz Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) also, i think it'd be neat to go the othe direction. (toward the sun) I second this suggestion of colonising the sun. We could mine raw nuclear explosions Added benefits would be doubled nuke power and ability to control global warming Edited July 29, 2009 by General Witz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Ok how the hell do I get my moon base over 50% efficiency? And why are we not able to name these things. EDIT: NM, hotspots and somehow wasted my move...yay 600k gone for nothing. Secret hotspots are a little over the edge...we already pay out the butt for the wonder, and then when we place it doesn't even work right. If you want to get technical about it. If a nation is bigger and has to pay more for it because they are more advanced, then their scientists would also be smarter and well paid to know the perfect spot where to place the base. Edited July 29, 2009 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 i still don't understand why there is a timer on these new wonders.really you'd think there would be timer in which the colony wont make it and if you 'build enough' or 'send enough' to the colony it would make it. One would think at some point the colonies would become self sufficient. The thought behind the design perhaps is that we're not at the level technologically speaking for that to be possible. also, i think it'd be neat to go the othe direction. (toward the sun) Venus would be prohibitively expensive to ever colonize. It would require totally remaking its atmosphere in a way that would make "thickening up" the atmosphere on Mars look like child's play. Mercury would be interesting in terms of a scientific research station, but again, you wouldn't want to ever colonize it. If you want to look at possible colonizing opportunities beyond Mars and the Moon, orbiting cities would be a logical step, as would mining in the Asteroid Belt. Colonizing beyond the Asteroid Belt would be possible, but then again it's a loooooooooooooong way to Jupiter (forget beyond) and while the view would be spectacular, the cost of establishing viable colonies there just doesn't make sense. Perhaps after the Inner System has its natural resources exhausted? By that point hopefully we're on to at least local interstellar travel and it won't be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Ok...going over this.....honestly.....the pricing of these wonders doesn't make any sense given the reasoning that we were given. It was said that bigger nations have to pay more to go to the moon because they have bigger technology. For this example...I am going to use 2 Ronin nations. http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=154996 Me and http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=342691 Hisk For me my moon base cost me $202,000,000 + $30,000,000 for the Space Program and 660,000 to move my base to a spot where the hotspot wasn't. This is a total of $232,660,000 to go to the moon for a technologically advanced nation. For bigger nations these costs are even higher. For Hisk, if we wanted to, we could funnel him aid for 60 days. and he could buy the Space Program for $30,000,000 and then build a moonbase for him for $60,000,000 to bring his total to $90,000,000 when his people are still living in grass huts and building bowls out of bat guano. So answer me this, how do bat guano and cow feces rockets make it to the moon? And why would lesser developed nations have a cheaper way to the stars than the most advanced nations in the world? Edited July 29, 2009 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSpion Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 So it's going to cost me more to send my spicy fish fueled rockets to mars? All this tech I've been buying is only going to penalize me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shilo Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Ok...going over this.....honestly.....the pricing of these wonders doesn't make any sense given the reasoning that we were given. It was said that bigger nations have to pay more to go to the moon because they have bigger technology. For this example...I am going to use 2 Ronin nations.http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=154996 Me and http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=342691 Hisk For me my moon base cost me $202,000,000 + $30,000,000 for the Space Program and 660,000 to move my base to a spot where the hotspot wasn't. This is a total of $232,660,000 to go to the moon for a technologically advanced nation. For bigger nations these costs are even higher. For Hisk, if we wanted to, we could funnel him aid for 60 days. and he could buy the Space Program for $30,000,000 and then build a moonbase for him for $60,000,000 to bring his total to $90,000,000 when his people are still living in grass huts and building bowls out of bat guano. So answer me this, how do bat guano and cow feces rockets make it to the moon? And why would lesser developed nations have a cheaper way to the stars than the most advanced nations in the world? The logic is simple. That rocket ship made out of bamboo is much lighter than your high tech china plastic rocket ship. It thus needs much less fuel, considering today's gas prices, the price difference isn't even somewhat realistic, it must be much greater. Also, think about the investment necessary to build a space center, the companies that produce all those high tech gadgets, and assembling the rocket ship. On the other hand, you got your medicine man coming out of his mud hut, having had a vision telling his 5 jugle tribesman to go chop some bamboo sticks and build the spaceship. That's 0 investment cost (taking into consideration the time it took to sharpen the stones necessary to cut the bamboo), if you use coconut milk as fuel, you don't even give any money to Exxon, that's 0 fuel costs. My nation is in a simliar situation of depending on the expensive high tech stuff, but I do sympathize with the need of my fellow Bobians that are still in the mud age to reach Mars before I do. Why shouldn't they have the ability to do that? Edited July 29, 2009 by shilo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxley Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Larger nations will benefit more from the wonders, they in essence are building 'larger' bases, larger colonies and larger mines. Smaller ones, for smaller nations, are thus cheaper, but net them less benefits. On the questions of how the happiness increases/decreases, and how the effect of the hotspot exactly works, admin says it will be more fun if everything isn't revealed, and those who work out the secrets first will have a little edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Larger nations will benefit more from the wonders, they in essence are building 'larger' bases, larger colonies and larger mines.Smaller ones, for smaller nations, are thus cheaper, but net them less benefits. On the questions of how the happiness increases/decreases, and how the effect of the hotspot exactly works, admin says it will be more fun if everything isn't revealed, and those who work out the secrets first will have a little edge. Then the option of lessening the 7 day move period needs to be explored. And, when you say the bases will recoup their cost over their lifetime, is that at 100% efficiency or 50% efficiency...because if I just paid 202 million to build a base that will actually lose me money in the long run, I have issues with that. If that figure is for 100% efficiency, then hotspots need to be easier to find. If that figure is for 50% efficiency then I have less of an issue with the current set up because I will stumble upon the hotspot eventually. Edited July 30, 2009 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxley Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Then the option of lessening the 7 day move period needs to be explored. And, when you say the bases will recoup their cost over their lifetime, is that at 100% efficiency or 50% efficiency... At 75% average hot spot efficiency. because if I just paid 202 million to build a base that will actually lose me money in the long run, I have issues with that. If that figure is for 100% efficiency, then hotspots need to be easier to find. If that figure is for 50% efficiency then I have less of an issue with the current set up because I will stumble upon the hotspot eventually. Hotspots are designed to be a bit of a team effort, alliances and groups can work together to get closer and closer. If you have multiple Moon wonders, then you can move them around and help you locate the hotspot easier etc, so now that you have the Base, getting a Colony or Mine would not only give you the benefits of those wonders, but it will help you get a better return from your Base etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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