The GMs Court

[iamthey]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='18 May 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1274213311' post='2302361']
Shouldn't the results of the first failed spy operation be rp'd out first. I mean if saomeone failed an operation against you wouldn't you increase your security againt any further operations which can't be achieved through rolls and odds.
[/quote]

Depends on how the first operation fails. If you are doing a hacking attempt and it fails that wouldn't necessarily raise any alarms. (The major intelligence agencies have thousands of hacking attempts a day). If your operation failed for a reason like 'the original spy died before leaving for the op, thus the project was scrapped'. That clearly wouldn't raise any alarms. Or it could just be an utter failure,in all cases its irrelevant as the odds of success don't change either way. Its based off of ingame odds.

[king of cochin]

I would like GM advice on this particular issue I am facing in the Operation Downfall thread (Tahoe war). For weeks I and KaiserMelech have been posting about ground operations and a couple of days ago I even posted a reasonably detailed invasion plan which explains how my forces are moving.

I RPd ample time (5-6 days RL) before the first beach landing, securing of beaches, creation of a logistical route, expanding the beach head and the current advance to interior. I thought this would be sufficient time for Mudd to attack my amphibious landing platforms or beachheads, but despite several posts that he did in the interim, he either did not see or did not choose to respond to this area of attack.

Now I understand the constraints of time, but surely it is unreasonable for me to have to backtrack over two weeks of RPs because Mudd did not respond to my attacks. As per Mudd's latest [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=85074&view=findpost&p=2302543"]post[/url], he is once again engaging only Greater Pacifica and not responding to my attack. So I hope I have permission from GMs to auto-advance, ie move on to securing the interior regions of Oahu Island.

[Lynneth]

I'll PM him.

[Yawoo]

Talked to Lynneth, my SDI get's a chance to block Tahoe's nuke.


[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=85074&st=80"]Link to post[/url]

Please do my SDI roll.

[Lynneth]

Gitmo being Yawoo's territory...
And taking [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=85074&view=findpost&p=2302543"]the post[/url] into account...
SDI always has a 60% success chance.

Failure: 1-40
Success: 41-100

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/Lynneth_del_Serpentas/AE/Thing207.png[/img]

Success, if barely.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

Sorry to be a pain...but I thought that was like a nuclear artillery shell...not an actual nuclear missile and I was under the impression that those shells could not be shot down. Again, just my assumption, but if the assumption is correct I figure I should have brought it up.

[Centurius]

Well I fear this is an area where IG mechanics have taken precedence over real life. It is very difficult if not impossible to take down an artillery shell in real life but seeing as all nukes in-game are blocked too the SDI rule counts for all nukes.

[Lynneth]

Actually, the USA has a laser application - THEL - that was capable of shooting down 3 mortar rounds in 2004. It wasn't continued, but assuming it had been done and refined, even brought to a mobile platform, it could rather easily take down artillery shells when they're just coming over the horizon - which would be more than 20 kilometers away, depending on the weather and terrain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThD0FMvTFU
etc

[SpacingOutMan]

Actually, you all seem to be forgetting C-RAM, which is Counter-Rocket, Artillery, Missiles. There are a wide-variety of C-RAM systems, but they aren't limited to THEL lasers (which are completely unreliable unless given with a proper boost, as I did in my development thread ). Also, a nuclear artillery shell of this caliber, per se, has a capable launch range of 361 (approx.) miles via self-propelled weaponry. So, feasibly, a C-RAM system could, indeed, shoot it down.

I'm going to be up front though: unless there was C-RAM extensively RP'ed in Gitmo, there is no way in Hell you are shooting down an artillery shell form Louisiana. Just saying. Obviously it's not my ruling, but it is, indeed, unrealistic.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Lynneth' date='19 May 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1274271663' post='2303257']
Actually, the USA has a laser application - THEL - that was capable of shooting down 3 mortar rounds in 2004. It wasn't continued, but assuming it had been done and refined, even brought to a mobile platform, it could rather easily take down artillery shells when they're just coming over the horizon - which would be more than 20 kilometers away, depending on the weather and terrain.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThD0FMvTFU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=LThD0FMvTFU[/url]
etc
[/quote]

Didn't the Israeli's have their own version of it, currently in use?

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='19 May 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1274277545' post='2303308']
Didn't the Israeli's have their own version of it, currently in use?
[/quote]

They are currently working on something that is a tad different. It's a chemical-laser that utilizes HELLADS. It's different than THEL in many regards, notably which chemicals it uses along with delivery and precision.

[Uberstein]

Does this mean if somebody puts a nuke on a truck and drives it into enemy territory, the SDI will still stop it?

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='BaronUberstein' date='19 May 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1274281512' post='2303351']
Does this mean if somebody puts a nuke on a truck and drives it into enemy territory, the SDI will still stop it?
[/quote]

A very interesting question. I'd surmise, then, that we would have to expand the powers of SDI? And/or, ya know, doing actual RP and what not to actual be creative about blocking it... that is always an option, ya know.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='19 May 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1274283500' post='2303383']
A very interesting question. I'd surmise, then, that we would have to expand the powers of SDI? And/or, ya know, doing actual RP and what not to actual be creative about blocking it... that is always an option, ya know.
[/quote]

There are so many possibilities while RPing nuclear attacks and spy ops, the things which are decided by GM roll, so that even if a truck borne nuke gets interdicted as per GM SDI ruling, it could be considered as a spy ops blocked and RPd as such. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peacemaker_%281997_film%29"]Peacemaker[/url] anyone?

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='19 May 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1274284606' post='2303398']
There are so many possibilities while RPing nuclear attacks and spy ops, the things which are decided by GM roll, so that even if a truck borne nuke gets interdicted as per GM SDI ruling, it could be considered as a spy ops blocked and RPd as such. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peacemaker_%281997_film%29"]Peacemaker[/url] anyone?
[/quote]

Yea, but would that truck be considered a spy ops (smuggling in a warhead) or a nuclear attack? They are two different rolls.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='19 May 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1274285356' post='2303411']
Yea, but would that truck be considered a spy ops (smuggling in a warhead) or a nuclear attack? They are two different rolls.
[/quote]
Both, I would assume.

Spy ops roll to load nuke into truck and get past border security.
Nuclear roll for the attack.

Fail either one, and the nuke attack fails as well.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Yawoo

[king of cochin]

A nuke attack roll, RPd as a spy ops being detected!!

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Yawoo' date='19 May 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1274285587' post='2303414']
Both, I would assume.

Spy ops roll to load nuke into truck and get past border security.
Nuclear roll for the attack.

Fail either one, and the nuke attack fails as well.
[/quote]

But that's my point. How can an SDI block a nuke that isn't being fired? I'm just asking because the usage of a SDI is already wishy-washy; it blocks nuclear missiles and free fall warheads. I'm simply asking as to whether or not we are, realistically, using SDI has an end-all-be-all roll for all nuclear success, whether it is an actual ABM system or a CIA-like organization thwarting a terrorist effort and defusing the bomb before it goes off?

If that's the case, that could really make for some interesting RP (think Tom Clancy). I'm not trying to !@#$ in anyone's cereal; I'm just looking for clarification.

[quote name='king of cochin' date='19 May 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1274285603' post='2303415']
A nuke attack roll, RPd as a spy ops being detected!!
[/quote]

It's a hit or miss though, and rarely do people even RP (in-depth) counter-nuclear options other than "my shield blocked it".

[Uberstein]

[quote name='Yawoo' date='19 May 2010 - 09:13 AM' timestamp='1274285587' post='2303414']
Both, I would assume.

Spy ops roll to load nuke into truck and get past border security.
Nuclear roll for the attack.

Fail either one, and the nuke attack fails as well.
[/quote]
Unless you can explain how the SDI is stopping it I think only the spy roll would apply.

[king of cochin]

In IG parlance i think only ballistic missile nuking and associated SDI is considered. SDI is only to engage and destroy BMs and free fall warheads. It is not an intelligence organization per se. IRL intel organizations are also responsible for nuclear attack prevention, like preventing sneak attack bombs. They are essentially spy ops, but can be clubbed with nuke odds.

Frankly it is a gray area which only needs common sense, and not any rule propagation to govern. If a person plans ending a truck bomb, a nuke roll giving it failure could be RPd out as an intel operation interdicted, without it really needing a spy roll as well.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='19 May 2010 - 09:27 AM' timestamp='1274286450' post='2303444']
In IG parlance i think only ballistic missile nuking and associated SDI is considered. SDI is only to engage and destroy BMs and free fall warheads. It is not an intelligence organization per se. IRL intel organizations are also responsible for nuclear attack prevention, like preventing sneak attack bombs. They are essentially spy ops, but can be clubbed with nuke odds.

Frankly it is a gray area which only needs common sense, and not any rule propagation to govern. If a person plans ending a truck bomb, a nuke roll giving it failure could be RPd out as an intel operation interdicted, without it really needing a spy roll as well.
[/quote]
hmm...not a bad idea, actually

[Triyun]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='19 May 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1274286450' post='2303444']
In IG parlance i think only ballistic missile nuking and associated SDI is considered. SDI is only to engage and destroy BMs and free fall warheads. It is not an intelligence organization per se. IRL intel organizations are also responsible for nuclear attack prevention, like preventing sneak attack bombs. They are essentially spy ops, but can be clubbed with nuke odds.

Frankly it is a gray area which only needs common sense, and not any rule propagation to govern. If a person plans ending a truck bomb, a nuke roll giving it failure could be RPd out as an intel operation interdicted, without it really needing a spy roll as well.
[/quote]

I agree here. However, with a sneak attack I would point out the damage should be limited to the bomb not being an airburst. Also it should be limited to size (i.e. a suit case bomb wouldn't be too big), you could fit a full h-bomb in a cargo container though. I would also like to point out that cruise missiles (tomahawk was developed to deliver a nuke and later converted to conventional) and aircraft both would not be effected really by an SDI. Idk how these should be handled. IMO Strategic bombers should be based on whether you can actually get the bomb over the target through RPing, this is by far the most vulnerable delivery method. Cruise missiles I have no idea about. But in IRL military terms, ballistic missiles and cruise missiles were developed to do totally seperate things, and carry two seperate kinds of nukes.

[Executive Minister]

Why not do something like this,

Plain old boring ICBM? If you have an SDI, 40% odds.

Nuclear cruise missile? If you have 5 Missile Defences blam, (or no blam) 50% odds.

Nuclear equipped aircraft? If you have an AADN, -25% odds to hit (maybe add in that -10% aircraft damage to make the total -35%, even then thats sorta low, also debatable)

Nuclear equipped spy/truck/wombat? If you have 5 intelligence agencies 50% odds.

Again, debatable...

But in all fairness, SDIs are a nation's defence against nuclear attack, period. Who says your 'Initiative' is simply a THAAD or electrolaser cannon? Maybe its a squad of Missile Interceptor aircraft, maybe its armed guards patrolling the streets with x-ray goggles, or maybe its a crack team of intrepid teenagers... the way you block the nuke, in any of its possible forms is RP, with the universal -60% to get hit with a nuke to back it up. I don't understand why we'd need to take away from the SDI wonder, its a pretty vague thing. Anything that will be put up to RP is bound to be affected by tech and other hindrances for smaller players seem to be a kick the dog moment.

My bias as to being one who has just purchased their SDI not withstanding.

[Sargun II]

In-game mechanics trump all. It should be a 40% period.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='19 May 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1274311258' post='2303823']
Why not do something like this,

Plain old boring ICBM? If you have an SDI, 40% odds.

Nuclear cruise missile? If you have 5 Missile Defences blam, (or no blam) 50% odds.

Nuclear equipped aircraft? If you have an AADN, -25% odds to hit (maybe add in that -10% aircraft damage to make the total -35%, even then thats sorta low, also debatable)

Nuclear equipped spy/truck/wombat? If you have 5 intelligence agencies 50% odds.

Again, debatable...

But in all fairness, SDIs are a nation's defence against nuclear attack, period. Who says your 'Initiative' is simply a THAAD or electrolaser cannon? Maybe its a squad of Missile Interceptor aircraft, maybe its armed guards patrolling the streets with x-ray goggles, or maybe its a crack team of intrepid teenagers... the way you block the nuke, in any of its possible forms is RP, with the universal -60% to get hit with a nuke to back it up. I don't understand why we'd need to take away from the SDI wonder, its a pretty vague thing. Anything that will be put up to RP is bound to be affected by tech and other hindrances for smaller players seem to be a kick the dog moment.

My bias as to being one who has just purchased their SDI not withstanding.
[/quote]


Too complicated for a simple system. 40% is fine.

Plane flying in a nuke: 40%

Nuke in a truck: 40%

ICBM: 40%

Snuke: 40%


There is no reason to change it because you can RP how you stopped it once it has been stopped or you can RP how much damaged it caused.