The GMs Court

[Sargun II]

Fighter squadron size depends on infra, not tech, and anything above 3000 infra is pretty much okay for squadrons. That he only has 6 aircraft ingame though means he can only have six squadrons.

I have an issue myself. I wish to file a complaint against Shadowsage for metagaming his own vote: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83110&view=findpost&p=2235615 . I'm hoping that a ruling stating polls must be outright stated they're IC only or OOC only is put up, and that Shadowsage cannot annex the protectorate under the same circumstances.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Sargun' date='24 March 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1269469701' post='2235649']
Fighter squadron size [b]depends on infra, not tech,[/b] and anything above 3000 infra is pretty much okay for squadrons. That he only has 6 aircraft ingame though means he can only have six squadrons.

I have an issue myself. I wish to file a complaint against Shadowsage for metagaming his own vote: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83110&view=findpost&p=2235615"]http://forums.cybern...dpost&p=2235615[/url] . I'm hoping that a ruling stating polls must be outright stated they're IC only or OOC only is put up, and that Shadowsage cannot annex the protectorate under the same circumstances.
[/quote]


Really? Thats news to me. I always thought as soon as you hit modern tech, squadrons were granted to you.... pretty sure this is on the Map thread.

Also, I have an issue too. Can we please announce any fundamental changes to the RP's guidelines, like the changed TE formula and this squadrons thing, if Sargun is right? Otherwise, I'd be breaking the rules without knowing.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Sargun' date='24 March 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1269469701' post='2235649']
Fighter squadron size depends on infra, not tech, and anything above 3000 infra is pretty much okay for squadrons. That he only has 6 aircraft ingame though means he can only have six squadrons.

I have an issue myself. I wish to file a complaint against Shadowsage for metagaming his own vote: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83110&view=findpost&p=2235615 . I'm hoping that a ruling stating polls must be outright stated they're IC only or OOC only is put up, and that Shadowsage cannot annex the protectorate under the same circumstances.
[/quote]

Just checked the map/guidlines thread. It does say that once you become a developed nation your aircraft become squadrons. But what exatly is this developed level? There is no other mention of it anywhere in the guidelines etc.. Need some clarification on it.

[Sargun II]

The original wording was about the [b]size[/b] of the nation - once a nation was "big enough" it would have squadrons, but that word was replaced with developed. That's why it's based on infra, not tech. There has been no set number for it because the issue has yet to come up and no GM has bothered to change the wording or set an official level.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Sargun' date='24 March 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1269477796' post='2235829']
The original wording was about the [b]size[/b] of the nation - once a nation was "big enough" it would have squadrons, but that word was replaced with developed. That's why it's based on infra, not tech. There has been no set number for it because the issue has yet to come up and no GM has bothered to change the wording or set an official level.
[/quote]

Ah okay thank you. I didn't want to be bother just was curious. Again thank you.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='24 March 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1269469310' post='2235641']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83119&view=findpost&p=2235605

I have an issue with the above post, in it Acca is sending 30 fighter squadrtons of aircraft against me and yet he only has 6 aircraft ingame and he is a third world nation like myself. I thought you couldn't use your aircraft in squadrons until you were modern or first world and even if you can 6 IG should not equal 30 squadrons in the RP right.
[/quote]
True enough. 30 is a no-no.

As for Planes...I'm positive the ruling was modern meant you could go with squadrons. Though it makes more sense for infra allowing you to support more, I do have to admit.

[Centurius]

Even if he could support squadrons it still is 1 ig = 1 squadron so unless he has 30 ig planes he can not send 30 squadrons.

[Lynneth]

Planes, my interpretation:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83119&view=findpost&p=2236438

Edit: Note that "sufficient infra" is also needed, which I estimate to be between 3,000 and 5,000.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Lynneth

[Executive Minister]

I propose that 1 IG plane equal 1 IC squadron at all technology levels.

However, perhaps CW era squadrons should only be made up of half the planes.

They way I'd see it, if you have 6 IG planes, depending on your tech level...

if you are @ <500 tech, you have 6 squadrons of 6 planes== 36 planes.

if you are @ >500, normal rules apply, you have 6 squadrons of 12 planes.

[Acca Dacca]

I find it illogical to have 60 planes as a developing nation to screw up thier build, but during war, I most certainly have 60. I also have alliance restrictions that stop me from holding onto them. Planes are different than ships that you can only buy ships in certain amounts.

If it is not understood, my alliance is more important than my rping. And if a nation that has roleplayed planes for 3 wars has them suddenly dissappear, I will gladly add that into the story.

I also have "sufficient infra"

Edited March 25, 2010 by Acca Dacca

[Centurius]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' date='25 March 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1269541644' post='2236462']
I find it illogical to have 60 planes as a developing nation to screw up thier build, but during war, I most certainly have 60. I also have alliance restrictions that stop me from holding onto them. Planes are different than ships that you can only buy ships in certain amounts.

If it is not understood, my alliance is more important than my rping. And if a nation that has roleplayed planes for 3 wars has them suddenly dissappear, I will gladly add that into the story.

I also have "sufficient infra"
[/quote]

Not according to the ruling of Lynneth, so if you want to work with the alliance restrictions it has to be reflected in rp.

[Acca Dacca]

pleading to the other two GMs

[Voodoo Nova]

My thing is...we allow people to have max tanks and max soldiers without having them IG to have them IC. Then why not aircraft as well?

[Acca Dacca]

nukes, ships, cant be MAXed out in one purchase. Planes can.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' date='25 March 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1269541644' post='2236462']
I find it illogical to have 60 planes as a developing nation to screw up thier build, but during war, I most certainly have 60. I also have alliance restrictions that stop me from holding onto them. Planes are different than ships that you can only buy ships in certain amounts.

If it is not understood, my alliance is more important than my rping. And if a nation that has roleplayed planes for 3 wars has them suddenly dissappear, I will gladly add that into the story.

I also have "sufficient infra"
[/quote]


Bills for 105 aircraft: $21,000.00. I estimate that 60 planes would be about 10-13k, not that much of a drain on a nation at any level... as for paying for those planes probably a bit steep.

As for the matter of the planes. The precedent has always been that for troops and tanks its max totals, however for ships, nukes, and planes it has been present IG=RP guide. I personally don't see any particular reason why planes [b]shouldn't[/b] just be guided by one's max level but that doesn't really change the reality of the present rule itself. As for tech versus infra determinate for squadrons, I have always gone by infra myself as even back to the end of WWI planes fought in squadrons. So a nation with 70's tech should also be capable of sending squadrons. The only limiting factor would be if the nation was simply too poor which would translate in RP to infrastructure.

So under the existing rule I would say the planes are struck, but that you can use squadrons. However, I am opening up a PM to discuss the rule itself, as I do think it makes sense that nukes/ships have extended purchasing limits established by IG forces, while aircraft/troops/tanks can be built instantly. So we'll talk that over and see if a change is made.


[quote name='Sargun' date='24 March 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1269469701' post='2235649']
I have an issue myself. I wish to file a complaint against Shadowsage for metagaming his own vote: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83110&view=findpost&p=2235615 . I'm hoping that a ruling stating polls must be outright stated they're IC only or OOC only is put up, and that Shadowsage cannot annex the protectorate under the same circumstances.
[/quote]

I noticed this, IMO in the future whether the poll reflects IC or OOC indeed needs to be specified ahead of time. Moreover whether an IC poll reflects just leader opinions, or the result of a people's plebiscite should be made clear in the OP. That being said if a player decides to make it an IC vote reflecting the opinion of the provincial population, then a successful vote in favor could be used as a representation of the IC wishes of 'the people' (whatever that is). While a failing vote could either be respected, or ignored by a given power which could then simply impose its rule. Under such circumstances though a player couldn't just say 'lolpeopleloveme' when their poll fails, unless they were in fact IC fabricating the results of the vote. So I don't think a failed vote necessarily should bar a player from annexing, instead it should simply bar them from claiming to OOC have the consent of the people.

With respect to shadow specifically, there really is no existing or consistently applied precedent other than: the player can do whatever they want. In the past people have run polls just to see if they could win, taking the good results if they got them, and discarding the poor ones. While I don't think this is really a viable, or even okay status quo, I don't think it would be fair to retroactively apply a new ruling in this case as shadow couldn't have really been expected to follow a rule that didn't exist.

Edited March 25, 2010 by iamthey

[Markus Wilding]

I have a bit of a problem with Pravus in [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83130&view=findpost&p=2236081"]this thread[/url], where he insinuates that I'm metagaming by using his populace where I merely said some have come from his country. Like Subtle says in the next post, my characters can claim my people are from wherever I want them to, but that doesn't mean it's true. And yet he continues to think that I'm somehow RPing his populace.

[iamthey]

So we talked over the issue of planes, and the final ruling on the whole matter was decided.

Squadrons:

Nations with less than 500 tech may utilize 'half' squadrons (which would be less than or equal to 6).
Nations with greater than 500 tech may utilize full squadrons (which would be greater than 6 (perhaps cap it at a maximum of 12)).

Max planes vs IG planes.

As soldiers and tanks can be purchased instantly IG this is reflected in RP by capping one's soldiers/tanks a the max level specific to your nation (and applying the soldier *10 multiplier after this). On the other hand, as nukes and ships cannot be purchased instantly IG, this is reflected in RP by capping one's soldiers/tanks at their respective IG level.

The issue of planes has historically fallen into the latter category, however it has done so irrespective to its IG stage: that you can purchase planes instantly. That said, in order to correct this inconsistency one's RP planes are now considered to be capped at your nation specific max level (if you could have 50 or 60 or 105 planes in game, then thats how many half-squadrons/squadrons you could have in RP).

Edited March 27, 2010 by iamthey

[Executive Minister]

Woot. We did it guys! Change we can believe in. (more specifically, my change)

[Sargun II]

YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN! USA! USA! USA!

Also, reflected in map thread.

[Michael McBride]

SO soldiers and tanks are still the max you COULD have if you bought them all, and planes are now the same thing? Or are your RP soldiers and tanks only the soldier and tanks your nation currently HAS, and planes are maxed at what you COULD HAVE?

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo' date='28 March 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1269802205' post='2239339']
SO soldiers and tanks are still the max you COULD have if you bought them all, and planes are now the same thing? Or are your RP soldiers and tanks only the soldier and tanks your nation currently HAS, and planes are maxed at what you COULD HAVE?
[/quote]

Its always been the soldiers you could have to my knowledge. Not the amount of soldiers you currently have.

[iamthey]

Soldiers: Max you could have x 10
Tanks: Max you could have
Planes: Max you could have
Nukes: What you have IG this second
Ships: What you have IG this second
Submarines: What you have IG this second x the sub multiplier

Edited March 28, 2010 by iamthey

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo' date='28 March 2010 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1269802205' post='2239339']
SO soldiers and tanks are still the max you COULD have if you bought them all, and planes are now the same thing? Or are your RP soldiers and tanks only the soldier and tanks your nation currently HAS, and planes are maxed at what you COULD HAVE?
[/quote]
[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='28 March 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1269802541' post='2239341']
Its always been the soldiers you could have to my knowledge. Not the amount of soldiers you currently have.
[/quote]
Correct.

[quote name='iamthey' date='28 March 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1269805465' post='2239375']
Soldiers: Max you could have x 10
Tanks: Max you could have
[b]Planes: Max you could have[/b]
Nukes: What you have IG this second
Ships: What you have IG this second
Submarines: What you have IG this second x the sub multiplier
[/quote]
Times, of course, the appropriate multiplier now.

[Executive Minister]

How would one determine advanced numbers of IG planes, IE: owning a carrier if one doesn't have max planes? Honour system?

[iamthey]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='29 March 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1269838185' post='2239811']
How would one determine advanced numbers of IG planes, IE: owning a carrier if one doesn't have max planes? Honour system?
[/quote]

Generally thats how its been done. Theory X: Everyone here is mature enough not to cheat at a text based RP >_>. Which is probably true 99% of the time, but for the 1% there is also Theory Y: That people won't cheat, as in war a competitor may request screenshot evidence of max totals for planes (with the time stamp).

In either case its pretty much pathetic if someone cheats at this game... so yeah. :/