Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[KingSuck]

What part about the phrase "Karma" do you not understand?

seems like Archon, the voice of 'Karma', didn't understand it either

[Voodoo Nova]

Im seeing the constant redundancy here, After what NPO has done to several past alliances the terms we are offering are everything lenient. We aren't asking for them to disband, we aren't asking them to decom their wonders or military, the only thing we are seeking here is the justice where in which they have brought upon themselves.

You call the terms severe and harsh, But look at NPOs history and what they have done. We are not draconic as they are. Its fair and reasonable.

I say to NPO that you should take the terms as they are, Do the right thing.

So when do you give MK that 12k tech back that you got while helping NPO?

[KingSuck]

So when do you give MK that 12k tech back that you got while helping NPO?

"Do the right thing" VE

[WarriorConcept]

"Do the right thing" VE

After Valhalla does the right thing?

[Leetopia II]

No that wouldn't happen. This kind of ties in with the draconian thinking I was trying to make a point with earlier. The biggest hurdle for the NPO to overcome is to trust the Karma alliances. I think it's because of their policies and practices in the past they have a hard time getting away from this type of thinking.

lol trust the karma alliances

many of the same alliances that fought by their sides in past great wars, that have turned on them and now want them gone. yeah, they're really going to trust you guys.

karma really loses all meaning when it's being administered by people that reaped just as much rewards as they did in the past. you're just as guilty as they are

[Rafael Nadal]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this issue. In the scenario i just described private channels are certainly not the way to go about letting people know that you dont agree with one of the most important posts detailing and entire sides reasons for going to war. You just can't. Especially when said announcement has so much public backing. Simply doing something different later makes you look like you're hypocrits. Unfortunately some people on the Karma side of the coalition can't get around this simple fact.

If you wanted to destroy NPO and make them pay in a crippling way, then you should have said so. If you want to do so now, that's fine, as I've said, noone will stop you but you the mantle of hypocrisy. Had "Karma" just been honest about it at the very beginning, it wouldn't have been an issue.

I'm pretty sure we've been openly honest about our stances on NPO. We want them to be thoroughly militarily defeated, throughout the alliance. Stomping 20k ns nations down to 1k doesn't change NPO's real military capability. Take their top nations down a few thousand infra, and make them spend some of that warchest to rebuild and then aid out, is much more desirable. I would much rather see NPO at 1 mil NS, thoroughly bombed out, than at 5 mil NS paying billions in reps.

BTW, don't argue with me over these numbers, as I didn't put much thought into them. They're more to provide examples to my sentiment and feelings.

[mike717]

What part about the phrase "Karma" do you not understand?

I think most everyone understood there was a serious difference between the name chosen and the rhetoric used. Its why despite said rhetoric about changed worlds and new ways of doing things, many immediately began seeing the loose coalition as the flip side of the same coin. I don't care what reps losing alliances have to pay or what terms are. Perhaps these are the terms NPO deserves, frankly thats not for me to decide, and certainly given the NPO's past history of using similar tactics, they don't have much right to complain either. I apologize though if you expect the rest of the world to stand by and not point out the utter inconsistencies between words and actions.

As i said earlier, this isn't about what's "fair" for the NPO, it's about the motivations for coming together as a coalition, about the stated goals, and about how they are completely inconsistent with each other.

[Ogaden]

So when do you give MK that 12k tech back that you got while helping NPO?

VE has had a hand in everything we're blamed for doing and more besides.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Viridia...ente_(2nd)#Wars

[Qazzian]

It's a shame more NPO members aren't posting at this stage in the discussion.

I've held off because I'm not sure what to think about this. On the one hand, there's the calls for cooler heads, and then a couple of backhands to the NPO for good measure. Also, many members of the NPO have taken to lurking, as recently our presence has not been welcomed, and posts are drowned out rather quickly. I'll say that I appreciate the sentiment from Emperor Grub for good sense to prevail, and hope someday the rift between our alliances isn't so insurmountable.

I don't see why it has become impossible for NPO's government to earnestly approach the individual governments of those at war with NPO. Maybe some won't listen but surely if they really wanted to you don't think they could turn even one sympathetic ear toward negotiations? I simply don't believe that.

I believe someone on the side of Karma (could be wrong, I've read a lot of threads on here) pointed that out as a tactic to divide and conquer, by brokering peace deals individually, whittling down the alliances we're at war with. So in essence, I don't think that would work.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

I feel for you. At least I get to send out a couple nukes, bombing runs, ground attacks and cruise missiles every day.

I've grown tired of the war though. I never thought I'd say this because war used to be fun, but when it lasts this long it makes you want those comfy times of peace when you could run your nation somewhere other than into the ground. Plus, waking up at the update sucks.

All the available targets with open slots are always ZId, so I just check at a random time during the day and send my CMs. I did recently have a target who had some infra but was turtling so my level 3 bombers got some work!

I was just getting near an MP when we declared war

[Matthew Conrad]

I believe someone on the side of Karma (could be wrong, I've read a lot of threads on here) pointed that out as a tactic to divide and conquer, by brokering peace deals individually, whittling down the alliances we're at war with. So in essence, I don't think that would work.

That's because no one should leave their wartime allies hanging during negotiations. They fought with you so they deserve your presence during the negotiating portion.

[Melutar]

I agree that the terms presented to the NPO are unjust. Why must we slaughter Pacifica? She has already been brought to her knees. Her members left in droves and her NS has been strewn across the battlefield. Enough is enough Karma, you have had your revenge, now leave Pacifica alone to lick her wounds.

[muffasamini]

I quoted you simply to illustrate that I sincerely wish there was a stronger NPO presence in these earth-shattering discussions that will no doubt decide the fate of your alliance... lol. But seriously, can I hope that they're all too busy pursuing peace via private channels? This war has indeed got boring and so have these speculative discussions. We need real negotiations and a real conclusion to this war.

How else are we going to find out who FB plans to roll?

EDIT: I would imagine that the next war on Planet Bob will be far more interesting than this one currently is. I hope I am not wrong.

I can assure you that we are working tirelessly to achieve peace via diplomatic channels. Its a shame others aren't as interested.

[Voodoo Nova]

VE has had a hand in everything we're blamed for doing and more besides.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Viridia...ente_(2nd)#Wars

I know this. I've been allied to VE before. You've also seemed to have missed the point.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Voodoo Nova

[Drostan]

I think most everyone understood there was a serious difference between the name chosen and the rhetoric used. Its why despite said rhetoric about changed worlds and new ways of doing things, many immediately began seeing the loose coalition as the flip side of the same coin. I don't care what reps losing alliances have to pay or what terms are. Perhaps these are the terms NPO deserves, frankly thats not for me to decide, and certainly given the NPO's past history of using similar tactics, they don't have much right to complain either. I apologize though if you expect the rest of the world to stand by and not point out the utter inconsistencies between words and actions.

As i said earlier, this isn't about what's "fair" for the NPO, it's about the motivations for coming together as a coalition, about the stated goals, and about how they are completely inconsistent with each other.

And yet this decree wasn't targeted at anyone in particular but Karma at large which I think is the primary complaint many including myself are having with it. Just because some Karma alliances request harsh reps doesn't mean that you should paint them all with the same brush.

Basically, it's because people assumed Karma to be a bloc of some kind that has caused this whole mix up. And many people 'in' Karma may have conceived of themselves as part of a bloc and that may have fueled the misunderstanding. But the fact is that it is a very loose collection of alliances united mostly by a common foe. Take that foe away and the unity ceases to exist. We've always known that. If anything that completely invalidates any argument that there's a new hegemony.

You can't say Karma is weak and coming apart at the seams and then in the next breath say that they are the new hegemony. It just doesn't make sense. The fact that Karma is inconsistent means that you don't have to worry about this ad-hoc monster becoming a permanent fixture of Planet Bob.

[Rafael Nadal]

lol trust the karma alliances

many of the same alliances that fought by their sides in past great wars, that have turned on them and now want them gone. yeah, they're really going to trust you guys.

karma really loses all meaning when it's being administered by people that reaped just as much rewards as they did in the past. you're just as guilty as they are

I was unaware most alliances on the NPO front were former allies.

[Ogaden]

I know this. I've been allied to VE before. You've also seemed to have missed the point.

I wasn't missing the point at all, merely mentioning that the queue for collecting on old tech reps is a bit longer than just MK.

[Trinite]

I believe someone on the side of Karma (could be wrong, I've read a lot of threads on here) pointed that out as a tactic to divide and conquer, by brokering peace deals individually, whittling down the alliances we're at war with. So in essence, I don't think that would work.

I believe he was referring to reaching out to those you're fighting. Not trying to divide and conquer, but to show that you're willing to negotiate with them. Give them a reason to try and speak up for reducing terms instead of maligning all of them in public.

[heggo]

And yet this decree wasn't targeted at anyone in particular but Karma at large which I think is the primary complaint many including myself are having with it. Just because some Karma alliances request harsh reps doesn't mean that you should paint them all with the same brush.

Then name names! Give us a list of who you believe to be the vile offenders that are sullying the karma names.

[Ogaden]

I believe he was referring to reaching out to those you're fighting. Not trying to divide and conquer, but to show that you're willing to negotiate with them. Give them a reason to try and speak up for reducing terms instead of maligning all of them in public.

I believe the response I received last time I tried to do that was "stop whining and take the terms".

Now that this attitude is yielding bad PR all of a sudden we're the ones who are unwilling to negotiate.

[Drostan]

I believe he was referring to reaching out to those you're fighting. Not trying to divide and conquer, but to show that you're willing to negotiate with them. Give them a reason to try and speak up for reducing terms instead of maligning all of them in public.

I believe I may have been the one who suggested this strategy and indeed I did not intend it to be a 'divide and conquer' strategy. lol. More a show of good will.

No amount of Cruise Missiles will end this war. We've launched our weapons, now it is time for words.

edit:

Then name names! Give us a list of who you believe to be the vile offenders that are sullying the karma names.

It is not my job to keep track of who you are disaproving of. What I am saying, is that if people are upset with the terms given to Echelon, then rather than slander Karma at large they might do well to discuss the specific parties involved. And hell, why not skip slander entirely, and instead just plain old discuss with those alliances your concerns.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Drostan

[D34th]

So you think the NPO is going to resort to a military comeback? Or is that a veiled way of saying that you plan on getting involved? Either way, a pretty careless comment it seems. Or are you actually just stating that no surrender has been agreed upon?

Do you remember VietFAN war? NPO won all battles but can you tell me who declared victory in the end of it? Be careful, history usualy repeats itself. And as Grub said, stop to saying bring it, it's just fool.

[mike717]

I was unaware most alliances on the NPO front were former allies.

You and i both know how ridiculous that statement is.

[Bob Ilyani]

I do agree that some of the surrender terms are a little bit too high, but you don't understand that NPO has had this coming for a long time. NpO had troubles last year, as you said, but they never pushed around the entire community for years. NpO never actually held a massive power grip over CN like NPO has, and that's why comparing what happened to Polaris to what is happening to Pacifica is unfair.

[muffasamini]

I believe he was referring to reaching out to those you're fighting. Not trying to divide and conquer, but to show that you're willing to negotiate with them. Give them a reason to try and speak up for reducing terms instead of maligning all of them in public.

Umm, isnt that the only way? Its been very very difficult to sit down with all or even mots of Karma at once. We indeed have been talking to alliances individually, and even talking to friends of alliances to see whats going on. If theres anything we can do, we've been trying it.