Karma War Ended?

[KainIIIC]

Let me give you another example.

OOC: In WWII, the Russians sustained far more casualties than the Germans did. Their casualty to kill ratio was horrendous. This continued throughout the entire war and not just the first half of it. Were the Russians still winning when they were marching through Germany, sustaining heavy casualties? Absolutely. Why? Because it turned into a war of attrition wherein they had more resources.

[OOC] I don't think either example is very good since neither really reflects the current situation. NPO has nearly bottomed out in terms of war losses, and even though they are the "defeated" party, right now they have been inflicting pretty heavy war losses against RoK (and other alliances too like VE and FOK, but RoK is the main one). Perhaps a better example would be Southeast Africa during WW1, where despite much fewer numbers and the loss of true ability to actually govern the colony, the Germans were able to inflict massive damage on the British through guerrilla warfare.[/OOC]

IC: RoK did not sustain 600k NS war damages. The vast majority of it was due to members leaving. As I said previously, there was the possibility of being a peripheral effect of the war. Most of NPO's 100k NS loss was due to war losses, and of course we're running out of infra to destroy. Are they winning? I think you can connect the dots. Politically, their behavior has only strengthened the resolve to keep the current terms as their conduct towards Londo has clearly proven.

NPO and RoK alike have had members that have left for war-related reasons. Since RoK isn't at total war like NPO is, then yes, there is the possibility of more nations leaving to form their own alliance or to another alliance for whatever reason. But you also have to realize that 75% of RoK is in war range mode (<20k). Why is it that there are only 8 non-PM RoK nations between the NS of 10k and 20k? A month ago, that number would have been more around 40 to 60. It's really simply hard to dispute that this war hasn't had a tough toll on RoK. Additionally, its a pretty common phenomena among people to join things that are on the ascension while bailing on groups that aren't. Look at GGA, for the most part, and they aren't even in war anymore. I'd say RoK's lost 600k in the last 2 weeks are a combination of all three things, and unfortunately all three things contribute to the 3rd point (i.e. a self-fulfilling prophecy).

So yes, right now, at this moment, NPO is succeeding in ruining RoK. They're not winning the war, but it's a stark improvement from before, and they're currently making its enemies suffer more than they are themselves.

[Sylar]

Keep ignoring reality, see where it's gotten you thus far

behind NPO you guys have probably lost the most nations and thats kinda sad considering your on the winning side of a curb stomp.

and the war would not have gotten like this at all if people would have staggered idk how you guys let high profile targets go though lol.

i could see this war going till November or till another mid size war happens but until then seems were just sitting in cold war mode.

[Matthew Conrad]

[OOC] I don't think either example is very good since neither really reflects the current situation. NPO has nearly bottomed out in terms of war losses, and even though they are the "defeated" party, right now they have been inflicting pretty heavy war losses against RoK (and other alliances too like VE and FOK, but RoK is the main one). Perhaps a better example would be Southeast Africa during WW1, where despite much fewer numbers and the loss of true ability to actually govern the colony, the Germans were able to inflict massive damage on the British through guerrilla warfare.[/OOC]

NPO and RoK alike have had members that have left for war-related reasons. Since RoK isn't at total war like NPO is, then yes, there is the possibility of more nations leaving to form their own alliance or to another alliance for whatever reason. But you also have to realize that 75% of RoK is in war range mode (<20k). Why is it that there are only 8 non-PM RoK nations between the NS of 10k and 20k? A month ago, that number would have been more around 40 to 60. It's really simply hard to dispute that this war hasn't had a tough toll on RoK. Additionally, its a pretty common phenomena among people to join things that are on the ascension while bailing on groups that aren't. Look at GGA, for the most part, and they aren't even in war anymore. I'd say RoK's lost 600k in the last 2 weeks are a combination of all three things, and unfortunately all three things contribute to the 3rd point (i.e. a self-fulfilling prophecy).

So yes, right now, at this moment, NPO is succeeding in ruining RoK. They're not winning the war, but it's a stark improvement from before, and they're currently making its enemies suffer more than they are themselves.

Your example is exactly like mine. I really don't see how it's any different. Numerically superior forces are sustaining higher "casualties" to a smaller force because that force is running out of "things" to destroy. Did the British still win in Africa? Yes. This ties directly with my example.

Secondly, I have not said in any of my posts that this war hasn't taken a toll on RoK. I'm contending your theory that NPO is currently doing markedly large damage to RoK through military actions. I know several alliances have lost members to all these new alliances currently forming.

behind NPO you guys have probably lost the most nations and thats kinda sad considering your on the winning side of a curb stomp.

and the war would not have gotten like this at all if people would have staggered idk how you guys let high profile targets go though lol.

i could see this war going till November or till another mid size war happens but until then seems were just sitting in cold war mode.

Besides the fact this has nothing to do with the argument besides you trying to get in a quick jab, let me elaborate on your statement. Our AVNS has grown by 1k through two nuclear wars. What does that say? That says we lost a bunch of ghosts and low level stragglers. Forgive me if I don't give much care into losing dead weight. Our nuke count is now higher than pre-war and our MP count has jumped almost 20. That's actual, internal growth. The kind that we are focusing on. If we were really interested in just gaining member count, we wouldn't have an academy and would give asylum to new recruits before they finish the necessary tasks to become a full member. The fact that someone from Legion is trying to take any jabs at us is quite laughable tbh.

[USMC123]

NPO and RoK alike have had members that have left for war-related reasons. Since RoK isn't at total war like NPO is, then yes, there is the possibility of more nations leaving to form their own alliance or to another alliance for whatever reason. But you also have to realize that 75% of RoK is in war range mode (<20k). Why is it that there are only 8 non-PM RoK nations between the NS of 10k and 20k? A month ago, that number would have been more around 40 to 60. It's really simply hard to dispute that this war hasn't had a tough toll on RoK. Additionally, its a pretty common phenomena among people to join things that are on the ascension while bailing on groups that aren't. Look at GGA, for the most part, and they aren't even in war anymore. I'd say RoK's lost 600k in the last 2 weeks are a combination of all three things, and unfortunately all three things contribute to the 3rd point (i.e. a self-fulfilling prophecy).

So yes, right now, at this moment, NPO is succeeding in ruining RoK. They're not winning the war, but it's a stark improvement from before, and they're currently making its enemies suffer more than they are themselves.

Let me help out in pointing out the fallacies of your argument.

RoK is very much so in a state of total war with the NPO. You guys have far more nations in those lower ranges than we do, therefor if anyone is not in a state of total war, it is the NPO.

Next, yes the war has had a toll on RoK, but let us keep in mind why it is having a toll on us as of late:

1) Your nations have been nuked down to the range where you guys have a LOT of nations with MPs and nukes at the ~10K ns range, we don't. Why? We tore down a lot more of you than you did us.

2) You guys have 55 nations currently in ZI, with another 8 that have 1 or less infrastructure. It makes it very hard to do damage to zi'ed nations. You can only destroy so much tech defeat alerting someone everyday.

Now onto your claim about RoK members in war vs. peace mode, you guys may have 34 nations in war mode in the 20-10k NS range, but you also have 47 in peace mode, whereas RoK has all but 4 nation in War Mode.

As far as people bailing on us. That is just flat out wrong. The vast majority of the members that left had already fought and were too big to take on any NPO nations in war mode. All had given copious amounts of aid and had done their part. In two days, we lost well over 200k NS from three nations who went to make their own alliance, so don't let the NS numbers trick you.

EDIT: fixed mah smiley

Edited July 6, 2009 by USMC123

[Sandwich Controversy]

Not at all. It is a very fitting analogy. They ran out of nukes, the obvious source of that damage. Of course they couldn't sustain that rate, thus they obviously weren't going to win the war of attrition.

This has nothing at all to do with the topic and the idea of us winning that war is hilarious, but when terms were agreed we still had nearly 600 of our original 1400 nukes remaining.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Sandwich Controversy

[Matthew Conrad]

This has nothing at all to do with the topic and the idea of us winning that war is hilarious, but when terms were agreed we still had nearly 600 of our original 1400 nukes remaining.

I stand corrected on this fact, as I didn't remember how many nukes you had exactly. I just remember the damage ratio lessening towards the end.

[KainIIIC]

Okay, let's first off start out by saying that i'm NOT with the NPO. I'm in a very different alliance who actually briefly fought on the side of Karma. Big Difference. To anyone who takes a little bit closer look, it's irrefutable that RoK has taken heavy military losses as a result of NPO's committment to them.

Let me help out in pointing out the fallacies of your argument.

RoK is very much so in a state of total war with the NPO. You guys have far more nations in those lower ranges than we do, therefor if anyone is not in a state of total war, it is the NPO.

Not really total, at least 70 of your top nations are spared from little to any possibility of involvement militarily. This is because of reality, not necessity. NPO's upper tier in PM, both bankers and warriors, risk heavy tolls if they were to leave. There is no doubt, however, to say that RoK is taking the most damage right now given NPO's committment.

1) Your nations have been nuked down to the range where you guys have a LOT of nations with MPs and nukes at the ~10K ns range, we don't. Why? We tore down a lot more of you than you did us.

[not my nations] Yes, and that's just a reality. NPO's larger nations before the war who have nukes, higher tech, wonders, etc. are demolishing your middle core (10-20k NS, and lower too), as I said, only 8 currently in that range not in PM, in an alliance of ~350.

2) You guys have 55 nations currently in ZI, with another 8 that have 1 or less infrastructure. It makes it very hard to do damage to zi'ed nations. You can only destroy so much tech defeat alerting someone everyday.

[not my guys] Yeah and that merely sets the battlefield, some of these guys also Nuke and use CMs too, which often leads to higher damage. That's merely a tactic used by NPO.

Now onto your claim about RoK members in war vs. peace mode, you guys may have 34 nations in war mode in the 20-10k NS range, but you also have 47 in peace mode, whereas RoK has all but 4 nation in War Mode.

the point at all was not how many NPO had, regardless of if they were in PM or not. So you combine your PM and WM nations in the 10-20k NS range, and that's 12. That's still a stark drop from what you had 3 weeks ago, and yes, even RoK members who were originally higher up were dragged down there as well. I'm merely saying that you took a beating, and over this period, it has likely been more than NPO.

As far as people bailing on us. That is just flat out wrong. The vast majority of the members that left had already fought and were too big to take on any NPO nations in war mode. All had given copious amounts of aid and had done their part. In two days, we lost well over 200k NS from three nations who went to make their own alliance, so don't let the NS numbers trick you.

Well, I was more commenting on the nature of CNers to be more likely to leave if things are going badly in the alliance, just like CNers are more likely to join more successful alliances. Those members probably did play a good part in the war, but it was obvious that you were losing NS, score and members from the war in addition to losing some to random alliance formations. Thus they jumped ship in search of something better. Honestly, how can you account for the net 100 members (150-200 lost, if you include the ones you also recruited during this period) who left? Did they all form micro alliances?

Your example is exactly like mine. I really don't see how it's any different. Numerically superior forces are sustaining higher "casualties" to a smaller force because that force is running out of "things" to destroy. Did the British still win in Africa? Yes. This ties directly with my example.

Not exactly, the Southeast africa example, the German guerilla forces could have tied down and outlasted the British force there for additional years (these forces were the last WW1 German forces to surrender). NPO, if anything, is in a stronger position than either of these two examples, as they have "turtled" themselves in, perhaps like a barricade?

Secondly, I have not said in any of my posts that this war hasn't taken a toll on RoK. I'm contending your theory that NPO is currently doing markedly large damage to RoK through military actions. I know several alliances have lost members to all these new alliances currently forming.

What i'm arguing is that a good portion of RoK's losses are war related, directly (military, as evidenced by NPO's success in the lower-mid ranks), or indirectly (members jumping off an alliance that has lost a tremendous amount in the war period). The microalliance formations are a large reason for the overall numbers and the indirect member loss too.

[Matthew Conrad]

Not exactly, the Southeast africa example, the German guerilla forces could have tied down and outlasted the British force there for additional years (these forces were the last WW1 German forces to surrender). NPO, if anything, is in a stronger position than either of these two examples, as they have "turtled" themselves in, perhaps like a barricade?

What i'm arguing is that a good portion of RoK's losses are war related, directly (military, as evidenced by NPO's success in the lower-mid ranks), or indirectly (members jumping off an alliance that has lost a tremendous amount in the war period). The microalliance formations are a large reason for the overall numbers and the indirect member loss too.

The example still holds.

OOC: The Germans (numerically inferior but in a tactically superior position) were fighting the British (numerically superior) and because of their tactics managed to hold of their forces. However, the British would have eventually overcome these forces regardless of their casualty ratio. This is literally the exact same example.

IC: I'll refer to the previous poster to explain RoK's member losses, as it is in line with my assumptions.

[enderland]

NPO has nearly bottomed out in terms of war losses

Considering how much money their peace mode nations lose daily and how much of an opportunity cost their many nations below 1k infra are paying, to even imply that NPO is not taking damage is folly.

[KainIIIC]

The example still holds.

OOC: The Germans (numerically inferior but in a tactically superior position) were fighting the British (numerically superior) and because of their tactics managed to hold of their forces. However, the British would have eventually overcome these forces regardless of their casualty ratio. This is literally the exact same example.

[OOC]Eh, the main difference is that the Germans in NAfrica would eventually be defeated and that was inevitable (and they were in 1943). The Germans in Southeast Africa never did surrender until the German Empire itself surrendered, they outlasted the 'war'. With the NPO and Karma, the NPO still has the option of a perma-FAN or a perma Guerilla war, even if they prefer a more traditional surrender. In any event, analogies may backfire if people disagree with what you're making analogous, and I'm not sure arguing about which German African front of a different world war was more like the present situation does us much good.[/OOC]

Considering how much money their peace mode nations lose daily and how much of an opportunity cost their many nations below 1k infra are paying, to even imply that NPO is not taking damage is folly.

I never said that they aren't taking war damages. 100k NS in 2 weeks, as well as a good deal of members. However, they actually gained in NS and score in the last 3 days.

[Prime minister Johns]

I never said that they aren't taking war damages. 100k NS in 2 weeks, as well as a good deal of members. However, they actually gained in NS and score in the last 3 days.

The only reason that they are going up now is because they have hit bottom and up is the only way that they can go.

There will be minor fluctuations in their score for as long as this war progresses but it will pretty much stay at where it is now with perhaps a slow decline as they exhaust warchests and cycle the empty banks out to the front to take over and give some of the nations at the front a chance to recover in peace mode, get out of anarchy and rebuild a little.

The days of the rapid NS loss are over now and now karma has a months long struggle ahead of it to knock the last NS off the NPO and wait for the alliance to collapse (if it ever will).

edit: made a point clearer than it was.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Prime minister Johns

[von Metternich]

I can't be bothered to quote all the stuff I wanted to refer to, but here's the thing.

USMC said small RoK nations are having problems since the large nations have been beaten down and are using a higher NS power to kill the small ones. Yes, thats true. But this also implies that Ragnarok's larger nations were successful as destroying NPO's large nations. Its a win-lose for both RoK and for NPO.

@Kain: war isn't the only thing that makes people leave. I can name atleast 3 more, but the two most common ones are

a) RL friend says 'join my alliance'

b ) People lose interest, go inactive, and nation gets deleted.

Just before the war, a bunch of guys joined RoK to attend the war.

edit: the b ) became a smiley B)

Edited July 6, 2009 by Famzy

[Ying Yang Mafia]

So yes, right now, at this moment, NPO is succeeding in ruining RoK. They're not winning the war, but it's a stark improvement from before, and they're currently making its enemies suffer more than they are themselves.

Ruining RoK? Give me a break. Of course RoK has taken a lot of damage this war, that is what happens when you declare fight the (formerly) two biggest alliances on Planet Bob. If you take a look at the war screens there is also no question that NPO has focused the brunt of their offensive wars on RoK. In fact, the vast majority of their offensive wars are engagements against RoK targets.

We're hardly suffering more than NPO. First off, our big nations are enjoying the tidy tax collections that come when a nation hasn't been in hippy mode since May (or April, this war has gone on so long I can't remember when it started ). True our lower nations are taking a beating, but it is nothing that won't be easily recovered from. Once the war ends, the combination of internal aid plus reps will boost RoK back up quite easily.

You have a point when you say RoK has taken a lot of damage, of course anybody with half a brain could point that out. But to say we're suffering more than NPO, to say that we're being ruined, well that is just ludicrous.

[KainIIIC]

Alright well I'm just going to make it brief, since I've basically repeated myself a bunch.

PMJohns: Yup, I agree

Famzy: Yup, and I never said it was completely due to war. Only that war losses and random leavings encourage more leavings and discourage recruitment. Direct and Indirect war losses.

YingYangMafia: Key words of my argument: right now and currently; Of course NPO has suffered more than RoK, but not in the past 2 weeks. Additionally, I think for RoK's recovery, the most frightening statistic is net member drop. That'll make recovery a little bit more difficult.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

Fair enough. My main disagreement was where you stated that NPO is succeeding in ruining RoK, since that is simply false.

RoK has certainly lost a lot of members, but keep in mind we still have 342, which is the 10th most in all of CN. That is a smaller number than we had before yes, but it still gives us tremendous rebuilding power.

[SiCkO]

i wonder if NPO is waiting for another alliance to step forward and help negotiate for them

since they seem to not be able to negotiate with Karma directly

[OverlordOeboema]

i wonder if NPO is waiting for another alliance to step forward and help negotiate for them

since they seem to not be able to negotiate with Karma directly

why cant they negotiate with Karma directly?

[muffasamini]

why cant they negotiate with Karma directly?

Karma alliances have stated repeatedly "karma is not a block" " we cant tell each other what to do" I trust I dont need to pull up the quotes, theres like 500 examples. Instead, we have to talk to each one individually, but each one doesnt have the power to speak for the group, so its pointless. If we actually manage to talk to them all, we are met with more hatred than I thought possible and they just continue to kick their ridiculous terms we've stated we cant accept down our throat.

[von Metternich]

Here's a reason why RoK has taken so much damage.

Ragnarok is no longer sanctioned, and has about 330 members. We have 139 wars active today against NPO. Sparta is a sanctioned alliance, and they're no. 2 at the moment. I don't expect them to have double the wars as Ragnarok, but I expect them to have more initiative.

And I'm sure there are more alliances out there who are doing the same.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

Exactly. Ragnarok has the most wars against NPO by far, which explains the damage we've taken.

[Glen MoP]

Here's a reason why RoK has taken so much damage.

Ragnarok is no longer sanctioned, and has about 330 members. We have 139 wars active today against NPO. Sparta is a sanctioned alliance, and they're no. 2 at the moment. I don't expect them to have double the wars as Ragnarok, but I expect them to have more initiative.

And I'm sure there are more alliances out there who are doing the same.

I actually had trouble getting my defensive slots filled. I was in anarchy (I spend most of the first 60 days in nuclear/regular anarchy) so I couldn't declare on anyone. I actually went from embassy to embassy (OOC: IRC channel to IRC channel) hunting for gov members to order someone to attack me. RoK flat out refused to attack. So did VE. Sparta was dead to the world and didn't reply. I hit six or seven embassies (OOC: IRC Channels) before giving up. Some alliance members (but not Gov members who were generally polite) were quite rude in expressing their refusal to attack. I finally resorted to mass direct messaging nations who were in my NS range.

I should give a shout out to FOK, who had several members politely offer to attack. They became my backup plan if everyone else wussed out. You guys fight well and are very aggressive. Around half my 30+ wars were with FOK nations, and I sometimes wonder if Karma would still be winning without FoK doing so much of the heavy lifting.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

FoK doing much of the heavy lifting? With all do respect to FoK, RoK has been doing the heavy lifting in this war. We have the most attacking wars against NPO and have, by a significantly large amount, the most defensive wars against them as well.

[von Metternich]

RoK flat out refused to attack.

We have similar stories from other alliances...

...just so you know...

[Sylar]

seems to me RoK & VE are doing most of the work RoK should stop and let te 600 Spartans take over lol.

[Gn0xious Jr]

It would take alot for NPO to trust the "karma" side and to sign any term thats offered, when all you see on these forums is a majority wanting NPO to either disband or be completly destroyed.

I think there are a few very VOCAL people repeating the same message over and over.

I don't think there is a majority of the MANY alliances within Karma that actually wish disbandment/destruction upon the NPO. It's unfortunate, on the forums, and in life, that the most squeaky wheels get the grease... or in this case seem to represent the WHOLE of an alliance/group of alliances...