My own rebuttal, and an MHAnnouncement

[Cairna]

I'm pretty sure that there are no given rights to an alliance's name unless they're currently claimed. If he's one of the founders, he certainly has a degree of right to reform it, and furthermore it shouldn't matter even if it were someone else.

TAB has a new name, with it, it should relinquish it's ties to the past.

And yes, let's not ignore the purpose of this thread. Posturing, intimidation, etc. Otherwise there's little point for it; you're getting ahead on PR, or trying to. Your support would be better used behind private channels, given the way CN works nowadays.

I very much like the responses in this thread though, it shows a certain degree of change in the air already. I think you have BTA's answer, though. So what you do next, be sure that I'll enjoy it either way.

[deth2munkies]

“Peace” was reached between TAB and BTA. MHA is the only one left causing any sort of an issue.

TAB and BTA made clear to each other that neither of us were willing to go to war over this and had no intentions of hostile actions in any way. Both alliances know where the other stands and are done with each other.

MHA is the only one left causing a ruckus. So the VE can rest assured that TAB and BTA will not be fighting each other. If MHA does something is a different story all together.

MHA wanting a beatdown is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. And Karma white knights? lol

For someone who has nothing to do with MHA you seem to know an awful lot.

He's a member of the alliance you are "negotiating" with. The above quote is from the leader of that alliance.

I would assume (because negotiations took place) that he is well aware of MHA's stance, probably even moreso than a rank and file MHA member. Your leaders are largely former BTA, so they, not TAB, are the ones who are really upset over this. If TAB attacks or acts aggressively at all past this point, it's at MHA's prodding. It appears the issue between them and the BTA has been settled.

And just to reiterate my personal stance:

Sorum, normally I like you, but you're blowing this ridiculously out of proportion, don't have a legal or moral leg to stand on, and are making you and your allies in TAB out to be fools. Just drop it. If you're so adamant that MD is going to run the alliance into the ground, then let it happen. That would reflect badly on him instead of on you, which this whole debacle is.

Edited June 29, 2009 by deth2munkies

[sdasda10]

Of course we will. Its not hard to be brave in the face of a seven man alliance. Really, TORN is the same alliance its always been. Bold when the numbers are in your favor.

That's cute. Really. You know as well as I do that any war now involves more than one alliance. I am not aware of any odds or any figures associated with this situation. However, as MHA's ally, we support them regardless of the odds. To ask anything else would be ridiculous. I have fought against severe odds before. If the time ever comes, you will see that I have no qualms in doing so again. The same can be said for many members within TORN.

[CelenAzrael]

TAB has a new name, with it, it should relinquish it's ties to the past.

I love this thought. It has been near relentless in these threads. My point still stands, though:

Just as a thought. If TAB was officially a different alliance than BTA from the surrender thread onwards, why did TAB have to pay reps for the BTA, being a separate alliance?

[King Srqt]

Well, for BTA to even make it to surrender negotiations, they had to agree to kick out MD as he was "on NPO's zi list"

aka, I kinda threw him under the bus so BTA wasn't forced to disband

Ok you threw him under the bus so they could get peace that is fine but it also means that when it came time for terms that his expulsion was not something on the table (since he was already gone) And seeing as though MD is no longer on anyone's ZI list and there are no binding terms to keep him out of BTA it seems that there is nothing preventing him from reforming BTA.

TAB's claim against BTA are based off of two lies 1st being that BTA did not disband which I have already proven to be false and second that MD is barred from joining bTA which I have also shown to be false. TAB does not have a led to stand on.

[CptGodzilla]

Ok you threw him under the bus so they could get peace that is fine but it also means that when it came time for terms that his expulsion was not something on the table (since he was already gone) And seeing as though MD is no longer on anyone's ZI list and there are no binding terms to keep him out of BTA it seems that there is nothing preventing him from reforming BTA.

TAB's claim against BTA are based off of two lies 1st being that BTA did not disband which I have already proven to be false and second that MD is barred from joining bTA which I have also shown to be false. TAB does not have a led to stand on.

Oh I was just correcting you is all I like starfox and all so I hope his venture in BTA is a healthy one.

[CelenAzrael]

TAB's claim against BTA are based off of two lies 1st being that BTA did not disband which I have already proven to be false and second that MD is barred from joining bTA which I have also shown to be false. TAB does not have a led to stand on.

Strawman ftw? I will now make the attempt to disprove at least the first point.

1. Something that doesn't exist (i.e. has disbanded) has no members

2. Reps cannot be paid by 0 members.

3. Reps were asked for and paid, so there was something doing that paying for the BTA.

4. These were not individual members paying on behalf of themselves, but rather individual members paying for the group.

5. Since BTA didn't exist, whatever did exist was taking the place of BTA.

6. Since TAB was forced to pay BTA's reps, yet were uninvolved in the war in any way whatsoever, having not, up until that point, existed, they must be something else.

7. TAB could either be the successor alliance, the parent forced to pay for its petulent offspring's mistakes, or could be the product of some sort of merge.

8. No merge was involved.

9. TAB was not the parent of BTA.

----------------------------------------

10. Therefore, TAB must be the successor to BTA, capable of holding BTA's name (thus a suitable proxy for the reps they were forced to pay in BTA's name).

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

[Kryievla]

Did not MD help pay those reps as well? I read that in one of these threads, so I guess you might be missing that.

[kobiashiy]

Did not MD help pay those reps as well? I read that in one of these threads, so I guess you might be missing that.

I read it as well..

[CelenAzrael]

From my understanding, MD was paying reps to NPO separate from TAB's reps to get out of PZI. I don't want to look up the thread again, so if anyone knows better... Even if I am wrong, that doesn't invalidate TAB's claim as the successor.

[Master-Debater]

I had to pay reps to CIS to get off of a PZI list. It was 30 mill.

Nothing was paid to NPO at any point.

[CelenAzrael]

My apologies. I read NPO somewhere and thought it was kind of strange. Those were not mentioned in the surrender terms for BTA, though so I would assume those are separate.

[Sorum]

At the end of GW3 it was more than apparent that the Blue Turtle Alliance would never have peace so long as I was in it. Due to that fact I issued my final order in the BTA. I issued an order to stage a fake coup to make it appear to the world that I had been ejected so that the first BTA could gain peace. There are many people who still play this game who can support this. Sorum was one of the people that the order was given to.

I damasked myself and had another admin ban my IP and user name from the BTA forums. BTA then went and posted that I was “Ejected” from the BTA so that peace talks could occur.

That is utter lies. Count Rupert, +Zeke+, and Zilla are all still around, and they know that's crap.

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im reforming BTA in a month or so

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> SO MUCH WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> I told Crush I wanted to do that xD

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> However, the BTA is dead, and isn't coming back, and I wouldn't be surprised if TAB and ex-TAB were pissed about it.

Nice of you to include the last line.

[kobiashiy]

That is utter lies. Count Rupert, +Zeke+, and Zilla are all still around, and they know that's crap.

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im reforming BTA in a month or so

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> SO MUCH WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> I told Crush I wanted to do that xD

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> However, the BTA is dead, and isn't coming back, and I wouldn't be surprised if TAB and ex-TAB were pissed about it.

Nice of you to include the last line.

Those quotes still say the exact opposite of your position now..

[Sorum]

Those quotes still say the exact opposite of your position now..

That's right. That was two months ago. And for two months, MD has made no attempt to smooth it diplomatically with TAB. I have full access to TAB forums - I'd know if he had given them a heads up. He came into this knowing that it would spark a conflict. That's not really the smartest way to run into this, and it changed my opinion on this alliance severely. When Carter started flexing invisible muscle, I'd had enough.

[King Srqt]

Strawman ftw? I will now make the attempt to disprove at least the first point.

1. Something that doesn't exist (i.e. has disbanded) has no members

2. Reps cannot be paid by 0 members.

3. Reps were asked for and paid, so there was something doing that paying for the BTA.

4. These were not individual members paying on behalf of themselves, but rather individual members paying for the group.

5. Since BTA didn't exist, whatever did exist was taking the place of BTA.

6. Since TAB was forced to pay BTA's reps, yet were uninvolved in the war in any way whatsoever, having not, up until that point, existed, they must be something else.

7. TAB could either be the successor alliance, the parent forced to pay for its petulent offspring's mistakes, or could be the product of some sort of merge.

8. No merge was involved.

9. TAB was not the parent of BTA.

----------------------------------------

10. Therefore, TAB must be the successor to BTA, capable of holding BTA's name (thus a suitable proxy for the reps they were forced to pay in BTA's name).

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

I have already quoted and linked to the announcement where Sorum himself said that BTA disbanded. If you are to lazy to read the thread I will be happy to do it again. And since you cleverly pointed out that something that disbanded no longer exists then it is fair to say that BTA did not exist until MD reformed it and that TAB can have no claim over something that did not exist.

[Master-Debater]

That is utter lies. Count Rupert, +Zeke+, and Zilla are all still around, and they know that's crap.

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im reforming BTA in a month or so

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> SO MUCH WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> I told Crush I wanted to do that xD

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> However, the BTA is dead, and isn't coming back, and I wouldn't be surprised if TAB and ex-TAB were pissed about it.

Nice of you to include the last line.

Then care to explain to me how the only head admin on a forum magically got demasked. Your story is so full of lies its amazing. You should watch your lies before they catch up to you.

And since you want to edit logs so amazingly here is the full conversation from mIRC logs themself.

Session Start: Mon May 25 00:32:10 2009

Session Ident: SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]

[00:32] Session Ident: SorumBeeblebrox[MHA] (IP info here)

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> what is it?

-

01[00:32] SorumBeeblebrox[MHA] is IP info here

01[00:32] SorumBeeblebrox[MHA] is a registered nick

01[00:32] SorumBeeblebrox[MHA] on +#RoK +#NV #umbrella tabprivate %#farkgames #NSO #Argent %#fok %#cnsparta #MCXA +#paradox mhagovt +#tpf Horizon #IRON #nsa mobffs #gremlins +#athens +#farkistan #polaris maddogs #tool +#cn-aeon MHA @#tab

01[00:32] SorumBeeblebrox[MHA] using subzero.coldfront.net Welcome to Coldfront!

01[00:32] SorumBeeblebrox[MHA] End of /WHOIS list.

-

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im reforming BTA in a month or so

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> SO MUCH WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> I told Crush I wanted to do that xD

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> yea

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> ive got every intention to start it up again lol

01[00:33] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> and run it slightly different this time

01[00:33] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> ive started 2 alliances now so i know what works and doesnt

[00:33] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> Did you know Voronov is back?

01[00:33] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> o_)

01[00:33] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> orly nao?

[00:33] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> yeah

01[00:33] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> did not know that

[00:36] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54882

[00:36] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> look at the sig of the OP

01[00:37] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> oh holy @#$%

01[00:38] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> thats pretty awesome

01[00:38] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> i did not know that dude was back

[00:38] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> yeah, too bad he ran straight into the ground with a DoW on NPO xD

01[00:39] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> lol

01[00:39] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> well as long as he plays it smart it wont matter

01[00:39] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> cause NPO wont be able to do anything to him haha

[00:39] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> >.<

[00:39] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> MHA will still get him

01[00:39] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> damn you

[00:39] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]>

[00:39] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> i never liked him anyway

01[00:40] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> now to get MHA to clear its ZI lists >.>

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> he was a @#$$ after we voted not to join GUARD

01[00:40] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> he wasnt a bad guy

01[00:40] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> odd ideas

01[00:40] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> yea it went downhill at that point

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> our ZI lists are clear

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> who're you referring to?

01[00:40] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> voronov

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> he's on our lists?

06[00:40] * Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$} is still used to the world where people attack and get ZId for it

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> ahhhh

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> nah

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> if he hits NPO

[00:40] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> we hit him

[00:41] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> simple

01[00:41] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> gotcha

01[00:41] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> meh no skin off my back

[00:41] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> ;]

01[00:41] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> the charter im working on for BTA is pretty win actually

[00:41] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> o rly?

01[00:41] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> yea

[00:41] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> back in 15, foods lol

01[00:41] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im still debating a few things

01[00:41] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> haha alright

[01:01] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> back

[01:01] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> debating what?

01[01:02] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> just how to orginize the alliance

[01:02] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> ahhh k

01[01:02] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> yea ive got some radical ideas thats for sure

01[01:02] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> high risk but very high reward

[01:02] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> ahhh k

[01:02] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> like?

01[01:03] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> got an idea where a number of people have near absolute power

01[01:03] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> they can order other members to do pretty much anything

01[01:03] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> diplomacy, aiding, defending nations,

01[01:03] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> then 1 main leader, and multiple other leaders who control everything including the numbers

01[01:04] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> ive got other ideas to but i wanted to try something CN hasnt really done so far

[01:04] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> ahhh k

01[01:05] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> every alliance i make has a new system for CN

01[01:05] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> TAE had an awesome system, =WE= has a decent one, BTA had one

01[01:05] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> now for BTA 2.0

01[01:05] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> lol

[01:05] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> call it ATB

[01:05] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> Aquatic Turtle Brotherhood

[01:05] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]>

01[01:05] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> haha

01[01:05] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> thatd be a odd combo lol

[01:06] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> yeah lol

01[01:06] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im curious what CJ is gonna say

[01:08] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> what'll be more interesting is how Crush and CR feel about it, as well as Jm, CJ and Tibs

01[01:08] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> true

01[01:08] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> well guess theres only one way to find out lol

[01:11] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> yeah

[01:11] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> lol

01[01:11] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> who alls on right now lol

[01:12] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> huh?

01[01:12] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> on IRC

01[01:12] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> CJ isnt

01[01:12] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> i didnt see CR

[01:12] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> noone but me

01[01:12] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> yea

01[01:12] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> guess theres always tommorow lol

[01:12] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> i'm thje only other BTAer online lol

01[01:12] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> theres others but they are in =WE= and on AIM lol

[01:13] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> ahhh k

[01:13] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> like who?

[01:13] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> CIS reformed today lmfao

01[01:14] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> yea i saw

01[01:14] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> should make life interesting

01[01:14] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> lol

Session Close: Mon May 25 01:38:32 2009

Wheres that line from Sorum? Sure as hell wasnt in our conversation.

Watch our Sorum. Lies lead to Lies which lead to more Lies.

How many are you willing to continue to spew before you come clean and admit what happened those years ago?

[King Srqt]

That's right. That was two months ago. And for two months, MD has made no attempt to smooth it diplomatically with TAB. I have full access to TAB forums - I'd know if he had given them a heads up. He came into this knowing that it would spark a conflict. That's not really the smartest way to run into this, and it changed my opinion on this alliance severely. When Carter started flexing invisible muscle, I'd had enough.

And you responded by lying about what the terms were and whether or not BTA disbanded. Good show.

[Moridin]

That is utter lies. Count Rupert, +Zeke+, and Zilla are all still around, and they know that's crap.

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im reforming BTA in a month or so

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> SO MUCH WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> I told Crush I wanted to do that xD

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> However, the BTA is dead, and isn't coming back, and I wouldn't be surprised if TAB and ex-TAB were pissed about it.

Nice of you to include the last line.

That line seems totally out of place given what else you said, and now that MD is saying it was not a part of the actual conversation logs, I would question its veracity. Going from "WIN SO MUCH WIN" to "However, the BTA is dead..." seems like quite an astonishing change of heart to occur in a matter of seconds.

[CelenAzrael]

I have already quoted and linked to the announcement where Sorum himself said that BTA disbanded. If you are to lazy to read the thread I will be happy to do it again. And since you cleverly pointed out that something that disbanded no longer exists then it is fair to say that BTA did not exist until MD reformed it and that TAB can have no claim over something that did not exist.

I'm glad this is going to be such fun. I've already read both threads and there does appear to be a startling hole in your argument.

1) BTA surrenders and admits defeat, and agrees not to offensively attack any alliance under any circumstances for 100 days.

Did those terms which lasted longer than BTA did magically disappear with BTA's "disbanding"? If so, that puts a major hole in your argument. If an alliance no longer exists, anything still under any terms invoked upon that alliance must, logically, be that alliance. I would be very surprised if TAB was not subject to those. In that case, my argument still stands.

[King Srqt]

I'm glad this is going to be such fun. I've already read both threads and there does appear to be a startling hole in your argument.

Did those terms which lasted longer than BTA did magically disappear with BTA's "disbanding"? If so, that puts a major hole in your argument. If an alliance no longer exists, anything still under any terms invoked upon that alliance must, logically, be that alliance. I would be very surprised if TAB was not subject to those. In that case, my argument still stands.

Section 1: In the spirit of our newfound commitment to create a bright new future and a positive honorable identity, separate from the failings of the past, we hereby declare from this day forward that our alliance will be known The Aquatic Brotherhood (TAB). This serves as official notice that the Blue Turtle Alliance (BTA) is now disbanded.

I am not sure what part of that you do not understand it seems pretty crystal clear to me.My guess is that CIS only allowed the alliance to disband if TAB would carry over its surrender terms. It does not change the fact that BTA made an announcement that said it no longer exists.

if TAb agreed to carry over BTA's terms that is their business and does not change that they themselves announced their disbandment.

Edited June 29, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Rebel Virginia]

MHA wanting a beatdown is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. And Karma white knights? lol

For someone who has nothing to do with MHA you seem to know an awful lot.

So now Karma isn't fighting for principles? So you never had a problem with the NPO and thought they were just dandy? Boy am I glad you're singing this tune. You've proven me right. I said all along that once you got power you'd change. Thank you.

That's cute. Really. You know as well as I do that any war now involves more than one alliance. I am not aware of any odds or any figures associated with this situation. However, as MHA's ally, we support them regardless of the odds. To ask anything else would be ridiculous. I have fought against severe odds before. If the time ever comes, you will see that I have no qualms in doing so again. The same can be said for many members within TORN.

You and MHA against BTA. Those are the odds and you know it. So quite trying to act tough. Nobody's buying it hotshot.

[CelenAzrael]

And yet, as I put earlier:

Strawman ftw? I will now make the attempt to disprove at least the first point.

1. Something that doesn't exist (i.e. has disbanded) has no members

2. Reps cannot be paid by 0 members.

3. Reps were asked for and paid, so there was something doing that paying for the BTA.

4. These were not individual members paying on behalf of themselves, but rather individual members paying for the group.

5. Since BTA didn't exist, whatever did exist was taking the place of BTA.

6. Since TAB was forced to pay BTA's reps, yet were uninvolved in the war in any way whatsoever, having not, up until that point, existed, they must be something else.

7. TAB could either be the successor alliance, the parent forced to pay for its petulent offspring's mistakes, or could be the product of some sort of merge.

8. No merge was involved.

9. TAB was not the parent of BTA.

----------------------------------------

10. Therefore, TAB must be the successor to BTA, capable of holding BTA's name (thus a suitable proxy for the reps they were forced to pay in BTA's name).

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

Merely by carrying out the terms in the surrender document, TAB is the successor to BTA. And TAB most definitely did. At the point that TAB claimed BTA was disbanded, there was no BTA, having been supplanted by TAB around 2 weeks earlier. Similar how to immediately after CATO became GATO CATO ceased to exist as anything more than the alliance GATO had been, at the moment BTA "disbanded", it was only the alliance TAB had been, but it still had no subtance and likely no members. TAB is, for all intents and purposes, even by the surrender document itself, BTA.

[deth2munkies]

I'm glad this is going to be such fun. I've already read both threads and there does appear to be a startling hole in your argument.

Did those terms which lasted longer than BTA did magically disappear with BTA's "disbanding"? If so, that puts a major hole in your argument. If an alliance no longer exists, anything still under any terms invoked upon that alliance must, logically, be that alliance. I would be very surprised if TAB was not subject to those. In that case, my argument still stands.

And your entire argument you keep touting is a red herring. The dispute is between MHA and BTA, NOT BTA and TAB. TAB and BTA have reached an agreement (if you read any other post in the thread), and Sorum and Cru&#33;@#&#036;ania are the only two that are causing problems for BTA.

[King Srqt]

And yet, as I put earlier:

Merely by carrying out the terms in the surrender document, TAB is the successor to BTA. And TAB most definitely did. At the point that TAB claimed BTA was disbanded, there was no BTA, having been supplanted by TAB around 2 weeks earlier. Similar how to immediately after CATO became GATO CATO ceased to exist as anything more than the alliance GATO had been, at the moment BTA "disbanded", it was only the alliance TAB had been, but it still had no subtance and likely no members. TAB is, for all intents and purposes, even by the surrender document itself, BTA.

so your argument is that an alliance can say t hey disbanded without actually disbanding? TAB had a new government a ner charter and a completely different way of operating the alliance. It shared none of the diplomatic ties of BTA and the only thing it did retain is the majority of its membership and the responsibility of paying the reps of BTA. that does not mean they were the same alliance (your CATO/GATO anology fails because GATO never announced its disbandment or fundamentally changed teh way the alliance was run)