My own rebuttal, and an MHAnnouncement

[kulomascovia]

Well, excuse me. Having a bad night, are you? As for who is the aggressor, I have a slight inclination that MD is the aggressor here. He was told several times by TAB leadership that they did not like this, and he still went through with it. And who's right and who's wrong? Who can say. It will be debated back and forth and we may never know.

I think that's the problem; people assume that one side is right or wrong. No side is, technically, "wrong". MD can technically recreate BTA since the AA is not taken. If TAB changed its name, then their previous name is up for grabs, regardless of TAB's history. However, if TAB feels insulted or angered by this, then it can ask other nations to stop aiding the growth of BTA. There is no law or rule that prevents them from doing so. If alliances feel the same way as TAB then they can cooperate. This doesn't need to be a controversial issue. What BTA and TAB have done are legal and within their rights. If MHA feels like supporting TAB good for them. They can stop trading with BTA. I don't see why this has to come onto the forums. In fact, I don't see why there are 4 threads about this stupid issue.

DISCLAIMER: I'm still a noob at cybernations so if I made any errors, please let me know.

[hawk11]

DISCLAIMER: I'm still a noob at cybernations so if I made any errors, please let me know.

No, you're right. In fact, I think more people should listen to you.

[CptGodzilla]

Except this is a non-issue, and all that he's managed to do is posture in an attempt to look all big and frightening. TAB shouldn't have made their topic, FIRE most definitely shouldn't have made theirs, and MHA made an even bigger mistake in making this topic than FIRE did, which is seriously saying something about MHA at this time.

Or atleast about sorum.

Sorum sees what is going on, and decides to make a post. In said post he states that MD abandoned BTA, which is why they changed to TAB (that and surrender terms). He also said that he wishes a peaceful resolve is found. He is the one who ushered it away from MD's BTA into TAB. His opinion is that BTA should not be attacked and left alone. That is a pretty damn strong comment from someone who has some strong history in both alliances.

[ChairmanHal]

DISCLAIMER: I'm still a noob at cybernations so if I made any errors, please let me know.

Well for one, you are being completely logical in your presentation.

Don't ever stop.

[astronaut jones]

Sorum sees what is going on, and decides to make a post. In said post he states that MD abandoned BTA, which is why they changed to TAB (that and surrender terms). He also said that he wishes a peaceful resolve is found. He is the one who ushered it away from MD's BTA into TAB. His opinion is that BTA should not be attacked and left alone. That is a pretty damn strong comment from someone who has some strong history in both alliances.

except this post wasn't needed, and no matter what he said, all he ended up doing was posture and fan the flames when he really should have been trying to work behind the scenes to put out the fire.

so, maybe it just says something about him, and not so much about mha.

[AirMe]

Well, for BTA to even make it to surrender negotiations, they had to agree to kick out MD as he was "on NPO's zi list"

aka, I kinda threw him under the bus so BTA wasn't forced to disband

Sorum sees what is going on, and decides to make a post. In said post he states that MD abandoned BTA, which is why they changed to TAB (that and surrender terms). He also said that he wishes a peaceful resolve is found. He is the one who ushered it away from MD's BTA into TAB. His opinion is that BTA should not be attacked and left alone. That is a pretty damn strong comment from someone who has some strong history in both alliances.

You just contradicted what you said in your first post with your second.

[Nick1a]

You cannot have peace without war. It is as simple as that.

And Duncan, MHA has decided to get involved because they say TAB is their ally. That's the official reason at least. The real reason though is because MHA feels a need to flex its muscle against a seven man alliance. You see, without the NPO on top, MHA needs to make sure that people take them seriously. And what better way to do that than by standing strong in the face of the BTA? Two thumbs up MHA!

I just wish you could realize how wrong that last part is.

[CptGodzilla]

You just contradicted what you said in your first post with your second.

probably requires a little explanation, but MD didn't leave BTA, he was kicked out by some accord. Sorum feels MD abandoned BTA by not participating in surrender terms or ditching out on surrender terms, ect.

It's been 2 years of booze since this whole thing happened so i can't really remember who was where and when, but I think this all could have been avoided easily and a peaceful solution isn't that hard to obtain.

edit: and yes, that this shouldn't have blown up as it did.

Edited June 29, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[Duncan King]

Except this is a non-issue, and all that he's managed to do is posture in an attempt to look all big and frightening. TAB shouldn't have made their topic, FIRE most definitely shouldn't have made theirs, and MHA made an even bigger mistake in making this topic than FIRE did, which is seriously saying something about MHA at this time.

Or atleast about sorum.

I must need to get my head examined as I completely agree with you. This should not have been made an issue at all and definitely not made the subject of repeated announcements. Everyone involved here blew it.

• TAB should not have come on as strong in the first place, especially since they backtracked (or "clarified") a few comments later. If you're going to say something, it's better the come on easy and then accelerate your claims than come on strong and then weaken them. The latter makes you look like cowards.
  
• While FIRE has a right to make BTA a protectorate and I was happy to see that BTA wasn't alone, they should really have entered the situation better, because right now, it looks like Carter saw a chance to score some PR points and jumped before making sure that the rest of his government was onboard. He definitely should not have made a statement that basically stated "Come and get it."
  
• MHA made this an even more amusing situation by making this announcement. While MHA is peripherally connected to this via TAB, I believe that Sorum made the announcement way too personal. A better statement would have been one similar to what Crushtania said in the other conversation where he simply stated that MHA would try to usher in a peaceful solution. This clarified MHA's position and raised the level of discourse in this situation from schoolboy rivalry to adult conversation. IMO, it should have been left at that.
  

I also enjoy the revisionist history going on here. I was under the impression that MD was expelled from BTA and forced to pay massive reparations to someone in the Initiative (NPO?) by himself to get off of a ZI list. I remember him going to GDA and getting help from them with those reps. And there really was a PIAT between BTA and GATO before the war. I know because I was the one that wrote it. It was passed but never announced, for a reason that I never really knew.

And in case you're wondering, Zenith's official position is we don't really care at all, but we're enjoying the show.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Duncan King

[Caesar833]

Good god why is this even an issue? MD is obviously aware that TAB and friends do not like his choice of alliance name. He knew that before he did it. So obviously he does not care. Asking him nicely again and trying to explain "your side" is probably not going to change his mind this far into it. This topics are all pointless. Either make one with some actually force behind it or just stop. You all keep asking for a peaceful resolution. Well here is one. Let him call his alliance whatever he wants to call it and stop complaining about his "right" to do so.

/rant

[kobiashiy]

BTA just wants to live a peaceful life on Bob. That is all.

[Gen Lee]

seems quite petty and childish to hold the rights to who can and cannot use an AA that is not being used.

[Il Principe]

Ofcourse MD has the sovereign right to name his alliance, but TAB als has the sovereign right to object to this name and to act accordingly

We in MHA have the sovereign right to support TAB both because we consider them close friends and because we think TAB to have some very strong reasons to object to this name.

In perceived identity's there are no wrong or right, just perspectives. But very often it are these perspectives that are fertile grounds for international conflicts

I think that's the problem; people assume that one side is right or wrong. No side is, technically, "wrong". MD can technically recreate BTA since the AA is not taken. If TAB changed its name, then their previous name is up for grabs, regardless of TAB's history. However, if TAB feels insulted or angered by this, then it can ask other nations to stop aiding the growth of BTA. There is no law or rule that prevents them from doing so. If alliances feel the same way as TAB then they can cooperate. This doesn't need to be a controversial issue. What BTA and TAB have done are legal and within their rights. If MHA feels like supporting TAB good for them. They can stop trading with BTA. I don't see why this has to come onto the forums. In fact, I don't see why there are 4 threads about this stupid issue.

DISCLAIMER: I'm still a noob at cybernations so if I made any errors, please let me know.

No errors, I would wish every new player to be like you. In the MHA we always have room for newbie's like you.

You cannot have peace without war. It is as simple as that.

And Duncan, MHA has decided to get involved because they say TAB is their ally. That's the official reason at least. The real reason though is because MHA feels a need to flex its muscle against a seven man alliance. You see, without the NPO on top, MHA needs to make sure that people take them seriously. And what better way to do that than by standing strong in the face of the BTA? Two thumbs up MHA!

Maybe we just got involved because we were asked or because we care. But I'm sure your reason did not come up to our mind.

[Nintenderek]

Here's my take on the ENTIRE situation now that I've read everything. For one, I'm not sure about the rest of FIRE, but I defiantly don't want this to evolve into an armed conflict involving anyone, especially considered how pathetic of an issue it was that started this. Although I can see why TAB is angry, there are no copy rights in games like this on names. I know I've joked about it before, but there aren't actually any. So, TAB has no right to make someone switch their name. However, my alliance, FIRE, still had no right to get involved in a situation that didn't involve us. Right now, there are some things going on behind closed doors, and I think everyone knows I'm not a big fan of our current Fire Lord. If MHA has any concerns about FIRE in all of this (which from your OP, it looks like you might) then feel free to contact me, I'd love to work it out.

[Master-Debater]

Wow I never would have guessed that MHA was pushing TABs buttons for something to happen.

Wait yes I would.

Care to address the fact that last night TAB and BTA government met and agreed to have zero contact with each other and would let this issue drop? Or does that not fit into this picture of “MD is evil and BTA must die” that you have going for you.

Sorum I expected better of you than to air old laundry in public but since you want to go that way fine lets play.

At the end of GW3 it was more than apparent that the Blue Turtle Alliance would never have peace so long as I was in it. Due to that fact I issued my final order in the BTA. I issued an order to stage a fake coup to make it appear to the world that I had been ejected so that the first BTA could gain peace. There are many people who still play this game who can support this. Sorum was one of the people that the order was given to.

I damasked myself and had another admin ban my IP and user name from the BTA forums. BTA then went and posted that I was “Ejected” from the BTA so that peace talks could occur.

Congratulations Sorum. You’ve forced me to bring out some of the oldest and dirtiest laundry that you and I have.

As far as the ODP it was a PIAT that even former enemies acknowledge existed because we had daily chats about what side of the war BTA would be joining. Don’t believe me? Go read some history since you obviously are so deluded that you don’t know what’s going on. Though even seeing the truth I doubt you’ll realize what’s actually happened because you’re so caught up in this “I’m so awesome and you’re not” mindset. To bad to. At one point you were actually a good CN player and someone who could be trusted to see the correct responses out of a pile of @#%!.

And since we seem to be airing so much laundry care to address this IRC log where I tell you about BTA being reformed?

01[00:32] <Master-Debater[WE]{!@#$}> im reforming BTA in a month or so

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> SO MUCH WIN

[00:32] <SorumBeeblebrox[MHA]> I told Crush I wanted to do that xD

To anyone who wants the full log I’m more than willing to PM you a copy of these logs.

Why don’t you admit this isn’t about TAB/BTA. TAB/BTA are over and done with each other. All that’s left is the MHA who seems to be the one making the most noise and calling for more actions than the peaceful resolution reached last night.

Grow up Sorum.

You used to be a cool member of CN now you’re just a power hungry loon who’s moving down the same path as an alliance currently being rolled.

[ddog241]

cant we all just get along...

[sdasda10]

TORN stands by her allies in MHA. Hopefully this situation reaches a speedy resolution.

[Rebel Virginia]

I just wish you could realize how wrong that last part is.

Getting defensive are we?

TORN stands by her allies in MHA. Hopefully this situation reaches a speedy resolution.

Okay. When you decide you want to surrender before this war even starts though, do know that all channels are open.

[Goldie]

first off id like to say this isnt an announcement representing ve or its government, but that it represents many of my colleagues in ve and my wishes for how this is to be resolved.

ve does not want to see this "conflict" between BTA and TAB get hostile, as we are certain that a dispute like this can be settled diplomatically. it is my hope, and the hope of many in ve, that cooler heads will prevail, and that something as rash as war can be avoided. we would like to support any negotiation between the two alliances, and their protectors, and we would like to see BTA and TAB meet to hash things out, and hopefully FIRE and MHA can assist in doing this. If any mediating help is needed, im sure VE gov will gladly help out in this, or im sure GPA could assist in the negotiations as a truly neutral party.

ve supports peace in this matter, and hopefully this can put to rest any speculation about what our intentions in this conflict are.

[sdasda10]

Different government RV. I assure you that when the time comes, you will see just how different we are.

[Master-Debater]

first off id like to say this isnt an announcement representing ve or its government, but that it represents many of my colleagues in ve and my wishes for how this is to be resolved.

ve does not want to see this "conflict" between BTA and TAB get hostile, as we are certain that a dispute like this can be settled diplomatically. it is my hope, and the hope of many in ve, that cooler heads will prevail, and that something as rash as war can be avoided. we would like to support any negotiation between the two alliances, and their protectors, and we would like to see BTA and TAB meet to hash things out, and hopefully FIRE and MHA can assist in doing this. If any mediating help is needed, im sure VE gov will gladly help out in this, or im sure GPA could assist in the negotiations as a truly neutral party.

ve supports peace in this matter, and hopefully this can put to rest any speculation about what our intentions in this conflict are.

“Peace” was reached between TAB and BTA. MHA is the only one left causing any sort of an issue.

TAB and BTA made clear to each other that neither of us were willing to go to war over this and had no intentions of hostile actions in any way. Both alliances know where the other stands and are done with each other.

MHA is the only one left causing a ruckus. So the VE can rest assured that TAB and BTA will not be fighting each other. If MHA does something is a different story all together.

[Rebel Virginia]

first off id like to say this isnt an announcement representing ve or its government, but that it represents many of my colleagues in ve and my wishes for how this is to be resolved.

ve does not want to see this "conflict" between BTA and TAB get hostile, as we are certain that a dispute like this can be settled diplomatically. it is my hope, and the hope of many in ve, that cooler heads will prevail, and that something as rash as war can be avoided. we would like to support any negotiation between the two alliances, and their protectors, and we would like to see BTA and TAB meet to hash things out, and hopefully FIRE and MHA can assist in doing this. If any mediating help is needed, im sure VE gov will gladly help out in this, or im sure GPA could assist in the negotiations as a truly neutral party.

ve supports peace in this matter, and hopefully this can put to rest any speculation about what our intentions in this conflict are.

Well, isn't that nice. But I'm pretty sure that if MHA was interested in being fair or level headed they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of name. They want to flex their muscles, and they want a beat down. Plain and simple. For all you bystanders out there, now you get to see the true character of some of these Karma fellows. Yes, world, now you get to see your white knights in action.

Different government RV. I assure you that when the time comes, you will see just how different we are.

Of course we will. Its not hard to be brave in the face of a seven man alliance. Really, TORN is the same alliance its always been. Bold when the numbers are in your favor.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[SonOfHoward]

This can be done without a FIREfight.

- Sorum

I agree.

[kobiashiy]

Well everything seems well now

[Kowalski]

Well, isn't that nice. But I'm pretty sure that if MHA was interested in being fair or level headed they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of name. They want to flex their muscles, and they want a beat down. Plain and simple. For all you bystanders out there, now you get to see the true character of some of these Karma fellows. Yes, world, now you get to see your white knights in action.

MHA wanting a beatdown is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. And Karma white knights? lol

For someone who has nothing to do with MHA you seem to know an awful lot.