My own rebuttal, and an MHAnnouncement

[Wa Mu]

No offense, but you escalated this situation by posting the anti-BTA topic. If you had just resolved this on IRC diplomatically, maybe you two wouldn't be at the pit of war.

OK, so we escalated it. MD is still the aggressor.

[Groucho Marx]

For someone to be an aggressor they have to be, you know, aggressive. Making an alliance you were previoulsy the leader of is hardly aggressive. Even if some people didn't want the alliance to be made.

Asking others to deliberately hinder this new alliance, now that, that is aggressive.

Aggressively undertaking the heritage of an already existing alliance is pretty aggressive. Who would have thunk.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Emperor Marx

[Ryan Greenberg]

OK, so we escalated it. MD is still the aggressor.

No. TAB is. This situation was honestly nothing before TAB posted the topic. All of this just because of a simple name? Really.

[astronaut jones]

Aggressively undertaking the heritage of an already existing alliance is pretty aggressive. Who would have thunk.

everyone is posturing in this situation, it's just dumb.

[Groucho Marx]

No. TAB is. This situation was honestly nothing before TAB posted the topic. All of this just because of a simple name? Really.

No, it was private until BTA decided to reform anyway. It always was something, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue today.

Edit: Meh.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Emperor Marx

[Wa Mu]

For someone to be an aggressor they have to be, you know, aggressive. Making an alliance you were previoulsy the leader of is hardly aggressive. Even if some people didn't want the alliance to be made.

Asking others to deliberately hinder this new alliance, now that, that is aggressive.

In this particular case, yes, it was aggressive of MD to create this alliance. In talks between gov and MD, it was asked if he could change the name somehow so it wasn't Blue Turtle Alliance. I forget the exact example, but even Alliance of the Blue Turtles would have been fine. MD ignored this, knowing full well what could happen.

Then stop dancing around and make your opinion known. Are you in line with your government?

To put it simply, no.

[Captain Flinders]

Aggressively undertaking the heritage of an already existing alliance is pretty aggressive. Who would have thunk.

So because you added the word "aggressively" to the beginning of that sentence that makes it an aggressive action? That's his history too. He has as much a claim to it as they do. Or do you believe they have more claim to it for some reason?

[Sileath]

The posturing comes from the making of this topic. All it's saying is "watch out, we're big and bad and can shove people around"

It's just like the fire topic, except mha has been around long enough, and are supposedly well respected enough, that they should have known another topic like this would just stroke the fires even further.

But yeah, whatever you say.

Who are we pushing around? Did you read the OP?

MHA have long been close allies of TAB, and stand strong in support of them. We hope that a peaceful resolution can be reached

That pretty much sums up our whole position on the matter.

[Groucho Marx]

So because you added the word "aggressively" to the beginning of that sentence that makes it an aggressive action? That's his history too. He has as much a claim to it as they do. Or do you believe they have more claim to it for some reason?

I'd say reforming regardless of the feelings of the successive heir to the original BTA is aggressive.

[Captain Flinders]

In this particular case, yes, it was aggressive of MD to create this alliance. In talks between gov and MD, it was asked if he could change the name somehow so it wasn't Blue Turtle Alliance. I forget the exact example, but even Alliance of the Blue Turtles would have been fine. MD ignored this, knowing full well what could happen.

Him not indulging TAB government wants does not equate to aggression. If you tell me to do something and I don't do it, it is not automatically an aggressive action on my part.

To put it simply, no.

Well at least you are on the right track. Now get your government to see face facts and we can let people name alliances what they want.

I'd say reforming regardless of the feelings of the successive heir to the original BTA is aggressive.

See above.

*edit

Oh, and I should add that in two separate threads now, no one has been able to tell me why or how the government of TAB has more claim to the name than MD. Does no one want to field that seemingly very important aspect?

Edited June 29, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[Ellis]

I would think you can do it without being rude, however.

You lost me here. You obviously don't know my opinion here, or can't differentiate mine from my alliance's.

I know the first part is directed at Capitain Flinders, but I'd say he's being blunt, not rude, and you really were question-dodgeing.

As for your opinion, I can't see one different from your alliance's in this thread, and unless you state differently, I think it is generally assumed that your opinion is the same as your alliance position.

Edit: I see you have now, fair enough.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Ellis

[SunnyInc]

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Shall I reproduce the logs in which you tried to get me to goto MK with you? Or perhaps the ones where you admitted that you will argue with someone until you're blue in the face even when you know you're wrong? Hey, I can even get a few of my mates together and we can pool our "best of" Francesca logs if you want? Heck, I'll have a field day substantiating my claim, proving that I do, in fact, know what I am talking about and destroying the few morsels of credibility you have left while I am at it if you want to stand by that statement.

[Wa Mu]

Him not indulging TAB government wants does not equate to aggression. If you tell me to do something and I don't do it, it is not automatically an aggressive action on my part.

I'll let TAB government continue this as they were the ones in the conversation with MD and would know more about it then me.

*edit

Oh, and I should add that in two separate threads now, no one has been able to tell me why or how the government of TAB has more claim to the name than MD. Does no one want to field that seemingly very important aspect?

TAB considers BTA history to be intertwined with its own as the latter became the former. That is the most logical explanation *edit: that I can think of* in a nutshell.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Wa Mu

[astronaut jones]

Who are we pushing around? Did you read the OP?

That pretty much sums up our whole position on the matter.

the posturing WAS the making of this topic. It wasn't needed, just like how fire's announcement wasn't needed. All this does is add more fuel onto the fire (no pun intended), and mha should have known better. They've been around longer, they have the more experienced leaders, they should have known that this was a dumb idea to post this up.

so again, whatever you say.

[Ellis]

I'll let TAB government continue this as they were the ones in the conversation with MD and would know more about it then me.

But I thought you liked spying?

[Sileath]

Shall I reproduce the logs in which you tried to get me to goto MK with you? Or perhaps the ones where you admitted that you will argue with someone until you're blue in the face even when you know you're wrong? Hey, I can even get a few of my mates together and we can pool our "best of" Francesca logs if you want? Heck, I'll have a field day substantiating my claim, proving that I do, in fact, know what I am talking about and destroying the few morsels of credibility you have left while I am at it if you want to stand by that statement.

That is really incredibly unnecessary. Please show some respect. Thanks

[Sorum]

Oh, and I should add that in two separate threads now, no one has been able to tell me why or how the government of TAB has more claim to the name than MD. Does no one want to field that seemingly very important aspect?

As I said in my OP, it's my opinion that when MD walked out on BTA during negotiations in GWIII, he forfeited all his rights to the alliance.

TAB has more ex-BTA than BTA does, btw.

[Wa Mu]

But I thought you liked spying?

I a man of logic, not of miracles.

[Sileath]

the posturing WAS the making of this topic. It wasn't needed, just like how fire's announcement wasn't needed. All this does is add more fuel onto the fire (no pun intended), and mha should have known better. They've been around longer, they have the more experienced leaders, they should have known that this was a dumb idea to post this up.

so again, whatever you say.

This thread provides context into the reasoning behind TAB's issue with BTA, as well as clarifies MHA's position and serves as a deterrent (not an incitement) of armed conflict.

[Captain Flinders]

As I said in my OP, it's my opinion that when MD walked out on BTA during negotiations in GWIII, he forfeited all his rights to the alliance.

What about when the government members of the former BTA (presumably in TAB now) forfeiting the name of BTA. Would that not even the playing field?

TAB has more ex-BTA than BTA does, btw.

That there is completely irrelevant.

[SunnyInc]

That is really incredibly unnecessary. Please show some respect. Thanks

Towards who? I'm not going to let Francesca play to the "scheming mastermind" sterotype and gloss over the fact that she has the political eptitude of a refrigerator and craves war and personal conflict as a vampire does blood. I was simply pointing out that when she says she wants to attack someone on IRC, there is a strong chance she means it.

Edited June 29, 2009 by SunnyInc

[Sorum]

What about when the government members of the former BTA (presumably in TAB now) forfeiting the name of BTA. Would that not even the playing field?

You don't even know that the person you're arguing with lead BTA/TAB out of GWIII. I find that amusing.

MD willingly gave it all up. We rebranded BTA as TAB to keep the community alive.

[WorkingClassRuler]

What about when the government members of the former BTA (presumably in TAB now) forfeiting the name of BTA. Would that not even the playing field?

I think that's being discussed elsewhere in other threads, but it's MHA's position to support TAB's claim to the name of BTA and all it's history - hence this announcement.

[Francesca]

Shall I reproduce the logs in which you tried to get me to goto MK with you? Or perhaps the ones where you admitted that you will argue with someone until you're blue in the face even when you know you're wrong? Hey, I can even get a few of my mates together and we can pool our "best of" Francesca logs if you want? Heck, I'll have a field day substantiating my claim, proving that I do, in fact, know what I am talking about and destroying the few morsels of credibility you have left while I am at it if you want to stand by that statement.

I've really got nothing to be ashamed of, so log dump me to your hearts content. When you have done so previously, they have been logs ripped out of context, intended to somehow humiliate me. I find it a little ironic that every time we have an argument, you threaten to bring up these *awful* logs, when I never trusted you enough to tell you anything important anyway.

In all honesty, I couldn't care less what you have to say about me. Everyone knows that we don't exactly get along. I also think that the majority of the members of this community would not approve of log dumping on the CNF, nor would they find conversations between us two the least bit relevant or interesting.

[Captain Flinders]

MD willingly gave it all up. We rebranded BTA as TAB to keep the community alive.

But in doing so, still forfeited the name. You may have the best of intentions but you still have the same claim as he does.

I think that's being discussed elsewhere in other threads, but it's MHA's position to support TAB's claim to the name of BTA and all it's history - hence this announcement.

I understand MHA's stance. It's pretty lame, but I understand it.