Will NPO's membership revolt?

[Cortath]

I haven't bothered to read this entire thread, but are you saying that NPO *has* reformed/ will reform? If so, in what way?

Time will tell. I think it is fair to say that NPO has changed its perspective in regards to foreign policy, but as we are in war, these changes cannot be made manifest.

Through all of my time in Polar I heard stories about how Dilber's "genius" enabled the NPO to take revenge on its enemies in GWII, and GWIII. I was told of how the blacklisting of alliances like MK, GR, and ODN, and the subjugation of alliances like Legion and GATO were entirely justified due to the fact that they were "eternal enemies," or at the very least descendants of eternal enemies.

Now when I take those memories and experiences, and compare them to what your saying now, it leads me to think that either NPO lied to me for 29 months straight, or you are lying to me now. Either way it doesn't matter I suppose. My wariness will inevitably remain regardless of your response, and I will continue to expect NPO to come a-knocking on Polar's door in search of retribution for her "betrayal" in the most recent war.

Your attitude exemplifies the problems I stated here here.

You state, quite explicitly, you will not change your opinion of us. I will not further waste my words, for your sake and mine.

[Fallen Fool]

You think a lot of us, and not much of anyone else.

Possibly.

I do know for a fact, however, that you're purposely underselling yourself.

But even were it possible it would be a colossal waste of time to satisfy an emotional desire, when we could actually be working to advance our alliance.

Revenge can be logical as well as emotional.

You know you can't trust Karma. You know they've come for you once. You know they could come for you again. So what, logically, should you do? Try and get them to destroy themselves and, where possible, expedite said destruction by any means possible.

I'm not sure the relevance of the Maroon War, and Ivan's apology was his own not the Order's, so it was his right to retract back whenever he desired. Was it provocative? Perhaps; I'm not arguing that we are angels. However, it was hardly an earth shattering move that manipulated dozens of alliances and hundreds of nations into global war months later -- and remember, that was a global war where the outcome was far from certain (obviously LUE thought they would win it).

You know as well as I do that Polaris and GOONS intervention on the side of the Maroon Allied Forces was a provocation of the CoaLUEtion just as you know that said provocation resulted in LUE and NAAC pounding on the war drum in the backrooms. You also know that, had Martens not gotten cold feet and pulled NoR out, it was quite likely that Great War II would have come far earlier.

Also Ivans retraction was a deliberate provocation designed to inflame tensions which, given his position at the time, could very well be labeled as the Orders side pushing for war.

You state, quite explicitly, you will not change your opinion of us. I will not further waste my words, for your sake and mine.

I never said my opinion would not change. I said that the discrepancy between your words in this thread and my personal experiences over my 29 month career in Polar did little to alleviate my wariness.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

The driving force of all foreign policy, as it should be, as we are Francoists, is peace, strength and prosperity.

And by that yardstick your current policies appear quite ill-advised. 

That many of our former enemies ended up being arrayed against us again, was, as Vladimir rightly pointed out, far more their decision than ours.

And the fact that just about everyone else remembers this differently, including Polar members, including people who were Pacificans then but since moved on, does that suggest anything to you at all? 

Nothing of course. There is no gesture, no action we could take, short of collective suicide, that could prove that we would not do such a thing. And that of course, is the crux of a problem here on the OWF. Many people want us to apologize, or say something, or do some grand gesture in the middle of this war to indicate how we have changed or to be an action that prophecies our future. Any statement, action or gesture would be suspect, because people would think we were making insincerely, no matter how sincere it might be.

Polar managed it, why cannot Pacifica? 

And the more we apologize for our past wrongs, the more difficult we make it for our enemies to achieve peace, since not every action we have ever taken did they 100% disagree with.

Sorry, I dont get what you are saying here, could you rephrase? 

[Haflinger]

Polar managed it, why cannot Pacifica?

Polar managed it after the war was over.

They've been saying that whatever changes in foreign policy they are envisioning after the war will have to wait until the war is over, and also until the end of any terms canceling their ability to sign treaties have expired, before people can see what actions they wish to take.

The war with the Polars ended once the Citadel alliances who led the war decided that the Polars were no longer a threat to them. Unfortunately for Pacifica, Citadel isn't fighting them.

[Cortath]

I never said my opinion would not change. I said that the discrepancy between your words in this thread and my personal experiences over my 29 month career in Polar did little to alleviate my wariness.

Well, time shall tell.

And by that yardstick your current policies appear quite ill-advised.

Ah, your one-line quip has made me rethink our entire foreign policy!

[shilo]

Well, I guess it comes down to this: no one except Pacificans trust Pacifica not to go and repeat what they did 3 years ago

Pacificans logically demand that war has to end first before they can show that they have changed, everyone else doesn't trust that they will show change, thus they don't want the war to end

If this war will end, we can all see and hope Pacifica has changed, opposed to 3 years ago though, no matter how divided this post-war world might be, everyone will be watching Pacifica closely

[HeinousOne]

Well, I guess it comes down to this: no one except Pacificans trust Pacifica not to go and repeat what they did 3 years ago

Pacificans logically demand that war has to end first before they can show that they have changed, everyone else doesn't trust that they will show change, thus they don't want the war to end

If this war will end, we can all see and hope Pacifica has changed, opposed to 3 years ago though, no matter how divided this post-war world might be, everyone will be watching Pacifica closely

That is what certain powers wish to press forward. Such fears should be responded to with facts. Look at all that the NPO has lost. Do you really think all that will be easily regained? I do not have a masters in CN History but I would say if you were to match up all that they had and all that they have lost it might be the most costly war ever for an alliance.

They literally ran the world for awhile. Now they dont even run their sphere. They dont even have a bloc of their own and they will have to be extremely courteous to the few allies they will have left after the war if they wish to keep them. They have to change their entire methodology or they will indeed be all on their own and no one will care whom takes shots at them.

If all the talk is confusing, then just look at the facts.

[shilo]

That is what certain powers wish to press forward. Such fears should be responded to with facts. Look at all that the NPO has lost. Do you really think all that will be easily regained? I do not have a masters in CN History but I would say if you were to match up all that they had and all that they have lost it might be the most costly war ever for an alliance.

They literally ran the world for awhile. Now they dont even run their sphere. They dont even have a bloc of their own and they will have to be extremely courteous to the few allies they will have left after the war if they wish to keep them. They have to change their entire methodology or they will indeed be all on their own and no one will care whom takes shots at them.

If all the talk is confusing, then just look at the facts.

I never said I disagree with this, I just pointed out that the entire problem is that no one is looking at this rationally, it's rather an atmosphere of utter distrust, doubts, and no one willing to take the one step further that at least could lead to a different world.

It's the fear that peace would end badly, while ultimately, when no one tries, how the heck are we supposed to know that things have changed?

From my perspective, I really cannot see how Pacifica just like that rolls over half the world, after we haven't even seen how they and all the various alliances that betrayed them work things out. As of now, Pacifica is in utter shambles, and has very few loyal friends left, but as I pointed out, it isn't beyond them to try to do exactly that, and it isn't beyond everyone else to remember exactly what happened in 2006/2007.

In such a situation, only one party taking a first step can this standstill be broken, unless eternal war is the only goal.

Edited July 11, 2009 by shilo

[HeinousOne]

I never said I disagree with this, I just pointed out that the entire problem is that no one is looking at this rationally, it's rather an atmosphere of utter distrust, doubts, and no one willing to take the one step further that at least could lead to a different world.

It's the fear that peace would end badly, while ultimately, when no one tries, how the heck are we supposed to know that things have changed?

From my perspective, I really cannot see how Pacifica just like that rolls over half the world, after we haven't even seen how they and all the various alliances that betrayed them work things out. As of now, Pacifica is in utter shambles, and has very few loyal friends left, but as I pointed out, it isn't beyond them to try to do exactly that, and it isn't beyond everyone else to not remember exactly what happened.

In such a situation, only one party taking a first step can this standstill be broken, unless eternal war is the only goal.

You have a very good perspective on this. Yes, it is always possible that NPO is gonna try to rise up again and do their usual but they are in a position like they have never been in before. So for people to say they will react like they always have is indeed a bit presumptuous. It is indeed possible but it would be very hard for them to do such and not have it blow up in their face.

[Vladimir]

As I outlined here, there are some rather significant differences between the aftermath of the Great Patriotic War and now.

[shilo]

As I outlined here, there are some rather significant differences between the aftermath of the Great Patriotic War and now.

Again, it's not a matter of logic here, but one of trust. You guys portayed yourself so efficiently as a ruthless machine of destruction, that even now, as you are in ruins, without friends and 3/4 of the cyberverse joined in to fight you, still everyone thinks that 3 months down the road, you'll be at their throats.

As it is, you personally helped to get yourself into this by being quite good at what you do, and it's gonna take a rather large leap of faith to convince everyone else that even by facts alone, you won't, cannot, repeat history.

[Vladimir]

I hear what you're saying, and to an extent agree. However, if I tell you that I cannot fly it doesn't take faith or trust to believe me, it just takes a rudimentary understanding of our world's physical laws. The same is true here.

[bart416]

I see your rebuttal and raise you...well I can't use Francoism here because Vlad could magically alter it.

He'll magically alter it to put himself in charge.

But for real, NPO coup = extremely unlikely. The only person who could have pulled it off was ivan, but since he formed NSO that isn't likely to happen.

[shilo]

I hear what you're saying, and to an extent agree. However, if I tell you that I cannot fly it doesn't take faith or trust to believe me, it just takes a rudimentary understanding of our world's physical laws. The same is true here.

Emotions do amazing things. Like seing a pink sky. It's not physics, rather psychology

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Ah, your one-line quip has made me rethink our entire foreign policy!

Laugh if you like, but as long as I have been here we've been told that Pacificas score proved her philosophy. 

It would seem the change in score needs to be accounted for now. Did Francoism suffer from a hidden flaw, or did she fail to follow it sincerely? 

Edited July 12, 2009 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Cortath]

Laugh if you like, but as long as I have been here we've been told that Pacificas score proved her philosophy. 

It would seem the change in score needs to be accounted for now. Did Francoism suffer from a hidden flaw, or did she fail to follow it sincerely? 

Francoism has no flaw, and we followed it sincerely.

Francoism allows for humanity, however.

[Prime minister Johns]

Well, I guess it comes down to this: no one except Pacificans trust Pacifica not to go and repeat what they did 3 years ago

Pacificans logically demand that war has to end first before they can show that they have changed, everyone else doesn't trust that they will show change, thus they don't want the war to end

If this war will end, we can all see and hope Pacifica has changed, opposed to 3 years ago though, no matter how divided this post-war world might be, everyone will be watching Pacifica closely

Since when has facts entered into discussions of whether the NPO should be allowed to survive?

Fear seems to be the primary motivator here, not facts, people are afraid that the NPO will somehow come back for revenge despite the many things that would make this an impossibility.

The NPO is now on the verge of losing sanctioned alliance status and now is the smallest and most diplomatically isolated of all the sanctioned alliances.

The circumstances that allowed the NPO to rule over planet Bob have been removed, They are not the largest alliance and they do not have a massive bloc of allies to help them to enforce anything.

Even if the NPO wanted revenge it would be impossible for them to get it now or at any time in the immediate future, they simply do not have the resources or political capital to make such a thing possible.

[GoldenAura]

No you will only accept terms that you can pay off easily and quickly. Then you can begin to plan your revenge on us.

Someones scared of revenge.

[Francesca]

Someones scared of revenge.

Well, yes. I think everyone is afraid of Pacifica's retribution. Whether we will allow that to influence whether we will show mercy or not is yet to be seen.

[Essenia]

The problem with Francoism is that it's nothing more than a longwinded way of saying that Pacifica can do anything at all and still be in the right. When that is your driving ideology, people have all the reason in the reason in the world to distrust you.

[muffasamini]

Since when has facts entered into discussions of whether the NPO should be allowed to survive?

Fear seems to be the primary motivator here, not facts, people are afraid that the NPO will somehow come back for revenge despite the many things that would make this an impossibility.

The NPO is now on the verge of losing sanctioned alliance status and now is the smallest and most diplomatically isolated of all the sanctioned alliances.

The circumstances that allowed the NPO to rule over planet Bob have been removed, They are not the largest alliance and they do not have a massive bloc of allies to help them to enforce anything.

Even if the NPO wanted revenge it would be impossible for them to get it now or at any time in the immediate future, they simply do not have the resources or political capital to make such a thing possible.

Actually I whole heartedly agree with you. Currently, I dont think we really can loose much more in order to slip off sanction, if anyone is waiting for that to happen, please dont. Thats not a matter of arrogance, I actually would love nothing more than to slip off sanction to make yall happy, its just not going to happen any time soon. We've lost all we can, we cant really lose much more.

[muffasamini]

Well, yes. I think everyone is afraid of Pacifica's retribution. Whether we will allow that to influence whether we will show mercy or not is yet to be seen.

Please dont show mercy. Dont even think of it, show negotiation skills, the humility to realize that you may need to tweak your terms, and the graciousness to actually listen to us instead of kicking peace down our throats and shooting us in the head after we sign it. You shouldnt be afraid, actually evaluate our position, were screwed.

Also, as a small point, (just struck my fancy) can I steal your sig? I dont know why personally you have it, but you can definitely guess why I would want it.

[Francesca]

The problem with Francoism is that it's nothing more than a longwinded way of saying that Pacifica can do anything at all and still be in the right. When that is your driving ideology, people have all the reason in the reason in the world to distrust you.

Might I ask if you've read a single one of Vladimir's articles on Francoism? Or are you just repeating what everyone else tells you in order to appear intelligent? If, as I suspect, the latter is the case.... at least with me, it really wasn't effective.

[Essenia]

Might I ask if you've read a single one of Vladimir's articles on Francoism? Or are you just repeating what everyone else tells you in order to appear intelligent? If, as I suspect, the latter is the case.... at least with me, it really wasn't effective.

"There are no classes in CyberNations as there were in !@#$%*, so Francoists have analysed the state of nature here as a state of chaos, with the primary goal of alliances and organisations being to bring this chaos to order and thus allow their members to develop to their full potential freely. It is claimed by Francoists that while alliances have achieved this to varying degrees, it is only the historical roots of the New Pacific Order (namely the August Revolution and the class unity that it brought) that can completely remove conflict and truly free the individual."

The NPO is the only alliance that can completely remove conflict and free the individual... now that doesn't sound at all like a slightly more pretentious version of what I just said.

[Vladimir]

No.

What that is discussing is the degree to which conflict can be removed from the internal workings of an alliance (see: The Meaning of Freedom), noting that autocratic democracy (the principle on which the Order functions, see: The Sage and the Student) has a very specific historical development. It has nothing to do with what you said.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Vladimir