Why I am a Pacifican

[Kylliah]

I thought it was transparent too but judging by the amount of people leaping to this guy's defence and saying how honest and genuine he is I guess it isn't.

When I see those attacking NPO coming to his defense, I will be more likely to believe it isn't a PR stunt (OOC: I love your avatar, Aimee. I've been staring at it for the past 10 minutes.)

To the OP: I am glad you have found somewhere you feel comfortable and at-home. And you spoke eloquently about it, especially for your first venture into the OWF. I do have to agree that these sentiments may be better served on NPO's forums, to help bolster the morale of your comrades, than out here where even the mention of Pacifica's name seems to make people bristle. See? At least five people reading that last sentence just shuddered in disgust. In all fairness, I applaud your bravery to come here and post something like this, and I do sincerely hope you don't take the thread-jackers and trolls to heart TOO much. They are just expressing their opinions, same as you did.

We DO understand how you feel about NPO, because so many of us feel the same way about OUR alliance. NPO doesn't have a corner on the camaraderie market, nor do they hold all the secrets to an honest, caring community. I hope you can see that there are many of us who have the same feeling of belonging, the same feeling of honest, OOC friendships, that you have found there. And like you, we will defend our friends to the death.

[hizzy]

This is an attempt at sarcasm? Right? I know you have been reading the forums. Lets go count the posts together that ppl are giving the rally cry for harsher terms or to disband NPO.

In a way, this only shows you how lenient your opponent's leadership is... if the rest of the world wants to see you guys disband, and they're here giving you terms that you choose to spit on... you can see where this is going.

[Angrator]

This is an attempt at sarcasm? Right? I know you have been reading the forums. Lets go count the posts together that ppl are giving the rally cry for harsher terms or to disband NPO.

Harsher terms and disbanding the NPO are mutually exclusive. You can either have harsher terms or disbandment, but not both.

Anyway, go ahead and show me threads trying to get the NPO disbanded. I doubt you'd find any. Despite everything that has happened, I would say that most people would not want the NPO to be disbanded. Even talking about P/EZI for the NPO leadership, something routinually practiced by the NPO, has been dismissed. This was of course before the radio silence. But now that radio silence has been lifted, perhaps we can actually have a forum on the issue.

Actually I'm curious to see your views on the issue. What do you think? Why shouldn't the NPO be disbanded? Can you give me some specific reasons?

[ChairmanHal]

ahahaha, oh god this is a killer.

Except he's right.

[enderland]

Except he's right.

Planning to survive is not exactly "bait" lol.

Though I guess when you are actively working to destroy people it is bait to try and survive, eh.

[Bjornoya]

The current Karma forces in charge of the surrender terms facing NPO do not want disbandment.

I am fully aware of this, but there are many individual voices coming from Karma that speak in favor of disbandment.

[Teriethien]

I am fully aware of this, but there are many individual voices coming from Karma that speak in favor of disbandment.

Like who?

[Tromp]

Like who?

Mostly just members who voice their opinion with no real power over the outcome of the terms.

So it's a non-argument.

[Oppe]

It's nice that you have found a good place to be. But don't deafen yourself to the rest of the community either. There are many good people outside of the NPO as well. One thing often criticized about the NPO is that their members rarely bother to immerse themselves in the community and learn the history. I think that failing to do that you miss a lot of what this community has to offer. Enjoying the company of your alliance is great and so is befriending people from other alliances and learning of the tensions that exist. But the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I hope you will keep that in mind.

Generally I would agree with you except to say this. When I first started coming to the forums and IRC I noticed something. I looked at wiki and I looked at the posts on the forums. Why would I want to be a member or immerse myself in a "community" that spouts vile and hatred? Sure there is history and oddly enough as I go back and look at the wiki it changes from time to time. So what is the history I should pay attention to? Why should I come and associate with people who hate me just because of my alliance? Just look at some of the vile in this thread.

When I joined the game I was here for a week and was raided. I am on red so a Kind NPO nation informed me that the attackers had been messaged and to accept peace when offered (I am on red because it was my fav color). I did not join this game for Alliances I did not join it for community. I joined it as a nation simulator. This is how it was advertised and this is what I thought it was. A couple of weeks later guess what attacked again. Never once was I inactive for more than a day or two. Once more the NPO came and told me that I should go and post on the red protection court on their site. I did so and my attackers were messaged and this time they let the wars expire as opposed to peaceing them out. Oddly enough of all the raids I have experienced before joining NPO they were all members of what is now "karma".

From my point of view there are several very nice alliances. I have no idea as to what it is like in those alliances. I can only conclude from the statements made in this thread that they may be very nice places to be.

I can only hope that you find what you need.

NPO stood by me and now I stand with her.

[Denial]

Like who?

The same awful monsters that EZI'd Alterego and forced BAPS into perpetual war!

[Tromp]

The same awful monsters that EZI'd Alterego and forced BAPS into perpetual war!

Ohh, I c wut u did thar.

[Teriethien]

Mostly just members who voice their opinion with no real power over the outcome of the terms.

So it's a non-argument.

And even then I don't recall seeing anyone calling for NPO's disbandment beyond one or two nutjobs. NPO talks about being disbanded/community destroyed more often than Karma I reckon.

The same awful monsters that EZI'd Alterego and forced BAPS into perpetual war!

I call for immediate censure and EZI!

[Bjornoya]

Like who?

Dear God don't make me go through that 200+ page monster to find them, they are a minority but they are on the winning side.

And no I don't think that Karma would even consider this, but having these voices within their ranks considerably weakens the belief any substantial change will occur with this changing of the guard.

[Teriethien]

Dear God don't make me go through that 200+ page monster to find them, they are a minority but they are on the winning side.

And no I don't think that Karma would even consider this, but having these voices within their ranks considerably weakens the belief any substantial change will occur with this changing of the guard.

So you are going to judge an entire coalition just because there's a couple of fanatical haters in some of the associated AAs? I mean... come on. It doesn't matter if their alliance is part of Karma, you admitted yourself that Karma wouldn't even consider trying to disband the NPO. If you think that Karma won't change anything at least base it on real action, or at the very least majority opinion.

[hizzy]

I am fully aware of this, but there are many individual voices coming from Karma that speak in favor of disbandment.

Way to shoot yourself in the foot, Plato.

[Yossarian]

Well said Bartley.

I cannot and do not agree at all with what the NPO has done, but I can also say with certainty that I don't like what I've heard being proposed. Karma should be trying to set an example, not be NPO version 2.

No amount of reparations will ever reform the communities that NPO destroyed, nor will it prevent such communities from being rebroken in future. Only a good example set by Karma will be able to prevent this from happening again.

What such reparations will do, however, is show Planet Bob in general that: provided you are the either strongest alliance in the game, or that you have the support of most prominent alliances in the game, you will always be able to ask for almost unpayable amounts of reparations, with very little outcry.

[Teriethien]

What such reparations will do, however, is show Planet Bob in general that: provided you are the either strongest alliance in the game, or that you have the support of most prominent alliances in the game, you will always be able to ask for almost unpayable amounts of reparations, with very little outcry.

Yeah all the other white peaces Karma gave out never happened.

[muffasamini]

Yeah all the other white peaces Karma gave out never happened.

Welcome to the revisionary history your subject to when on top. I hope you enjoy it.

[Qazzian]

To the people claiming "PR Stunt", I have to disagree. I considered making a similar post in response to the large number of "Just give up, there's nothing in the NPO for you now" messages received in my nation's inbox during the course of the war.

I don't doubt that there is A sense of camaraderie in other alliances, and that there would be, in general, a very large overlap between different alliances. You'll find the people in charge, the people who are active, the people who just sort of float along with the tides of the alliances, the people who rock the boat until people start falling out. That's not something that's unique. What's unique is the specific experiences and people that are in those alliances. Some of you who've joined and left had poor experiences (or not good enough to get you to stay, I'm sure not 100% of people who've left hate the NPO), but there's clearly been other who've joined and found a group of people in the alliance that make us feel at home. Sure, other alliances have lots to offer and have a social group, but no other alliance has SilentJeune, sumguy, Wedge, BuddaKing, and Iceknave. There isn't another oppe in another alliance. It's the specifics that make people want to stay in an alliance.

Regardless of what the NPO has done, and regardless of the fact that he said he's been in the order for almost a year, but had just joined when the Karma war broke out, this was uncalled for King Death. Friends are friends not because of what they've done to others, but because what they've done for you. You stick with friends through the best of times and the worse of times, no matter what happens or has happened. Because it's just what friends do.

I don't often agree with NPO. I think that's something most people who know me would know about me. I'm one of the people who's been calling them out the last couple of days and agree with these terms. However everything in this OP makes sense to me, or at least the aspects of friendship. Congratulations Bartley, it's not often that I applaud an NPOer.

I'd like to see more posts like this (from people on both sides), not just the "You guys are #$$%&@!#". You may not agree with the group someone stands with, but you can (And should) go beyond the seething hate once in a while.

[Bjornoya]

So you are going to judge an entire coalition just because there's a couple of fanatical haters in some of the associated AAs? I mean... come on. It doesn't matter if their alliance is part of Karma, you admitted yourself that Karma wouldn't even consider trying to disband the NPO. If you think that Karma won't change anything at least base it on real action, or at the very least majority opinion.

I will judge it by its attitude, the entire 'they deserve it or worse' and 'they should be thankful that these aren't worse' is reminiscent of the attitude many NPOer's had at the end of their various wars. The fact that there are individuals who feel NPO should disband in KARMA is an indication of something, it can't just be ignored, the same way an extreme third party's existence within a country says something about that country.

And as far as change is concerned, KARMA lost a very unique opportunity to change the culture of the game. In my mind NPO's major crime was ambition, they took the game so seriously that others found it not worth playing anymore. KARMA had the chance to reaffirm that all members here are part of a community. Instead they went for same petty alliance politicking, which is to be expected of ambitious people and alliances. The form of reparations shows a lack of imagination to say the least. They may have beat NPO but the unhealthy culture NPO created has a good chance of living on through them.

I think this has gone a bit off topic, should probly head to reparations debate thread.

[Yossarian]

Yeah all the other white peaces Karma gave out never happened.

Well arguably those other alliances which got peace were never quite as abusive of power as the NPO was. Plus, the NPO is probably prominent alliance out of all those.

Actually in the 10 or so minutes I haven't been writing this, I just read Trashcat's corner. My opinion is now basically as follows:

NPO, you suck.

Karma, please don't lower yourself to NPO's levels. You just don't want to go there.

[bkphysics]

I will judge it by its attitude, the entire 'they deserve it or worse' and 'they should be thankful that these aren't worse' is reminiscent of the attitude many NPOer's had at the end of their various wars. The fact that there are individuals who feel NPO should disband in KARMA is an indication of something, it can't just be ignored, the same way an extreme third party's existence within a country says something about that country.

And as far as change is concerned, KARMA lost a very unique opportunity to change the culture of the game. In my mind NPO's major crime was ambition, they took the game so seriously that others found it not worth playing anymore. KARMA had the chance to reaffirm that all members here are part of a community. Instead they went for same petty alliance politicking, which is to be expected of ambitious people and alliances. The form of reparations shows a lack of imagination to say the least. They may have beat NPO but the unhealthy culture NPO created has a good chance of living on through them.

I think this has gone a bit off topic, should probly head to reparations debate thread.

It can be ignored as it is not indicative of Karma. You are talking about probably less than 1% of the people behind Karma and extrapolating this into an 'issue'. The problem with that is the people that do matter in Karma, that do make the decision on your peace terms etc, have NOT stated a desire to disband the NPO. Hence, the minute voices who are crying for such can be ignored as they have no ability to inflict their desire.

I am curious as to what you consider Karma should do with the NPO now? White Peace? Smaller reps? Remove the conditions? As well, with any of these actions, how is Karma enacting a fundamental change in the game? Will the NPO consider the Karma war a loss and seek no Karma of their own for what has transpired?

Finally. I sincerely hope the culture of the NPO does endure. Much like the culture of FAN, the NPO is to be admired for the dedication the loyal membership shows and any alliance who has members who stand defiant among terrible odds should be applauded as such. Karma does not seek to remove you, but your own pride is getting in the way of the NPO finding a path to peace and a chance to show the rest of Bob how changed you really are.

[Teriethien]

I will judge it by its attitude, the entire 'they deserve it or worse' and 'they should be thankful that these aren't worse' is reminiscent of the attitude many NPOer's had at the end of their various wars. The fact that there are individuals who feel NPO should disband in KARMA is an indication of something, it can't just be ignored, the same way an extreme third party's existence within a country says something about that country.

It's an indication that Karma is a real community with real people who have a diverse range of views between them. Nothing more or less. Much in the same way that extremists exist in every country and doesn't mean a thing. Do you go to sleep everyday fearing the rise of Nazi Norway? I know I don't. Now, if such extremists are a majority than you have a point, but it looks like they aren't.

And as far as change is concerned, KARMA lost a very unique opportunity to change the culture of the game. In my mind NPO's major crime was ambition, they took the game so seriously that others found it not worth playing anymore. KARMA had the chance to reaffirm that all members here are part of a community. Instead they went for same petty alliance politicking, which is to be expected of ambitious people and alliances. The form of reparations shows a lack of imagination to say the least. They may have beat NPO but the unhealthy culture NPO created has a good chance of living on through them.

I think this has gone a bit off topic, should probly head to reparations debate thread.

These terms aren't going to destroy the Pacifican community. 14 days of warfare is not going to fundamentally hurt the NPO's ability to pay off reps. Besides, the culture have already changed - when the TSI received (light) reps most passerbys were outraged. Because the idea of proportionality have taken hold, and I highly doubt that this is going to go away any time soon.

[bkphysics]

I would also like to reiterate that Karma has already stated numerous times that should the 14 days of bottom spanking deem to do more damage than originally foreseen, the rep demands can be adjusted accordingly.

Wish I had the quote but I am sure someone in Karma can be asked to verify such.

[muffasamini]

I am curious as to what you consider Karma should do with the NPO now? White Peace? Smaller reps? Remove the conditions? As well, with any of these actions, how is Karma enacting a fundamental change in the game? Will the NPO consider the Karma war a loss and seek no Karma of their own for what has transpired?

Finally. I sincerely hope the culture of the NPO does endure. Much like the culture of FAN, the NPO is to be admired for the dedication the loyal membership shows and any alliance who has members who stand defiant among terrible odds should be applauded as such. Karma does not seek to remove you, but your own pride is getting in the way of the NPO finding a path to peace and a chance to show the rest of Bob how changed you really are.

White peace would be tactically silly, as would smaller reps (even though I can dream cant I ). Removing the conditions, would yes be a great idea. NPO isnt recovering from 8 billion in reps any time soon. And, I think these harsh terms are a signal for fundamental change, albeit one that I think has already occured, even before the KARMA war (no viceroys, no forced disbandment, etc.). Ultimately, if you think about it long term, the end difference between paying reps with the conditions and without is the same, but the short term difference is the chance that the NPO will end up unable to complete its obligations. Remove the conditions, and we wont be afraid of going back on our word and facing the consequences, and you'll get what you want.

I do not believe this is be our "pride getting in the way," this a communications failure.

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I love you Bartley!

Edited June 16, 2009 by muffasamini