Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[ShinRa]

They can't get any worse. I mean, reps that can't be payed, won't be payed. Whether we're not paying 7 billion, 8 billion, or 800 billion is of no real consequence.

Nothing's impossible, it might take you several years to build up the money required but Pacifica will be able to do it in the end. And the only two alternatives you seem to have is either becomming the next FAN, or disbanding the alliance all together.

[Kindom of Goon]

OV needs more than 8 billion and 300K technology in reps?

I guess they were bigger than I thought before the war

And I guess you missed the "and those who fought alongside them" comment.

[Haflinger]

And I guess you missed the "and those who fought alongside them" comment.

Heh, no I didn't. I was making a point about greed

[magicninja]

So, how many monitors do you go through in a week?

Me? I laugh mostly. I never get angry. I do the angering. Just not as much as I used to I guess.

[NoFish]

Heh, no I didn't. I was making a point about greed

We're greedy. Yeah. That's why we turned down the counter-proposal that started this whole thread.

[Kindom of Goon]

Heh, no I didn't. I was making a point about greed

Oh ok

Though how is it greed? If NPO didn't start the war by aggressively attacking OV, they would not have had to come in a help and suffer billions in damage. Damage which the reps still won't cover.

Or am I still missing the point?

Edited June 15, 2009 by Kindom of Goon

[Haflinger]

We're greedy. Yeah. That's why we turned down the counter-proposal that started this whole thread.

Yeah, because it wasn't high enough.

This is what you said: "1 billion is an insult."

[NEWBert]

Nothing's impossible, it might take you several years to build up the money required but Pacifica will be able to do it in the end. And the only two alternatives you seem to have is either becomming the next FAN, or disbanding the alliance all together.

I rather become the next FAN than be enslaved to Karma. It's one thing to pay reparations, it's another to take reps to a higher level in which it's borderline unethical.

We all play a game here and I'm probably not the only one who feels that destroying the game for others is wrong. I don't care about past actions or how things have played out involving my alliance, because quite frankly that shouldn't be a reason to break basic ethical code. Why make the same mistake as thy enemy?

Am I asking for sympathy? Damn right I am, but I'm in no way asking for white peace or lenient terms. What I'm asking for are reasonable, ethical terms.

I personally do not feel that Karma as a group can do that. It's all too apparent that there's a Karma vowing change and a Karma vowing retribution.

[Henkie]

Nothing's impossible, it might take you several years to build up the money required but Pacifica will be able to do it in the end. And the only two alternatives you seem to have is either becomming the next FAN, or disbanding the alliance all together.

Taking several years would be against the peace terms, as they set minimum amounts to be payed each month, especially the tech bit, where 180 nations got exactly one year to pay off the 300k tech (25k per month). Breaking those terms will undoubtably lead to yet another way, except that we'd have let our nations be ZI-ed and we'd have been funding our opponents. Don't make the mistake of considering these peace-terms: they're an offer to speed up our destruction. Untill there are actual peaceterms, we have no choice but to continue the current path.

[NoFish]

Yeah, because it wasn't high enough.

This is what you said: "1 billion is an insult."

Well, yes. If they had offered an amount significantly higher then the damage inflicted by the extra payments (in both money, aid slots, and time under terms) would have been enough to offset the lack of the other two terms. 1b doesn't even come close to this amount, to offer it would imply that we are so motivated by greed that we're willing to inflict less damage for a slight (~10% once you factor in the tech?) monetary gain.

I would point out that that isn't a direct quote. Not that I disagree with the paraphrase but you shouldn't use quotation marks unless those are my specific words.

[ShinRa]

I rather become the next FAN than be enslaved to Karma. It's one thing to pay reparations, it's another to take reps to a higher level in which it's borderline unethical.

We all play a game here and I'm probably not the only one who feels that destroying the game for others is wrong. I don't care about past actions or how things have played out involving my alliance, because quite frankly that shouldn't be a reason to break basic ethical code. Why make the same mistake as thy enemy?

Mate, you're in the wrong alliance. The NPO has been 'destroying the game for others' since it arrived, turning Cybernations into it's personal empire and kicking the living hell out of anyone who differed in opinion or had a chance of opposing them. Look at FAN- actually no, look at the NpO if you want a few examples of this.

Go back through this thread and you'll see lots of mentions of just how many alliances have suffered under worse rep demands and I think you're actually getting off easy here considering everything which the NPO has brought into this game. The Midnight Blitz, Viceroyship, One Vision to name a few examples.

If Karma simply let's you go, then the NPO will go right back to what it was doing before the war and trying to turn CN into it's own dominion or empire. The people who lead you won't learn, they won't change and they can only be trusted to backstab and 'gang up' against other alliances.

If you really want that to chane, if you really want for the past not to be held against you, then I suggest you start by having your government disposed of.

Am I asking for sympathy? Damn right I am, but I'm in no way asking for white peace or lenient terms. What I'm asking for are reasonable, ethical terms.

I personally do not feel that Karma as a group can do that. It's all too apparent that there's a Karma vowing change and a Karma vowing retribution.

I'm personally in the latter, half demanding blood for everything the NPO has done. But to be fair, you're just in the way at this point. It's mostly those who've been in the NPO for the last few years, have curb stomped GATO, GPA, IAA and the rest of them people want to take revenge against, Or rather, namely those who lead them into those wars. If you want to avoid being crushed then I suggest you either surrender or leave NPO.

And as for the reps, that's just poetic justice in it's own way.

Breaking those terms will undoubtably lead to yet another way, except that we'd have let our nations be ZI-ed and we'd have been funding our opponents.

And that's meant to make us change our minds?

In every big war, the loser comes up being worse and having the fund their opponents via reps. I fail to see how this is any different, especially in comparison with some of your own wars such as GATO, which you ZI'd and then turned into your personal tech farm for several months under the guise of rebuilding the alliance.

At least we're being honest about wanting reps in this war rather than trying to dress it up as some noble act of charity.

Edited June 15, 2009 by ShinRa

[magicninja]

I don;t think the reps are too high. They are around what I figured they'd be +around 120K tech but I'll give Karma that I guess. The peace mode thing and the limit on who can send the reps is pretty bad though. Karma should give NPO a choice at least. Pay another 50K tech and 2 billion or deal or come out of peace mode. Whatever their price may be. Karma is supposed to be dictating the terms.

[kingzog]

Then add 168 pages of

NPO: Then you're just as bad as us!

Karma: Not really

NPO: Ya really

Karma: Not really

NPO: Ya really

Don't forget my damn letter! (Which I got, btw.)

I can't speak for how FAN feels about you guys using them as an excuse. You'll have to ask them I guess.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, given the object of said excuse, FAN is currently killing themselves laughing.

Then again I loves me some FAN. So much so that I've ceded Lisbon to them, apparently.

(They made this graphic, not I.)

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated. I guess it needs to be repeated, once again:

Punishing a criminal by doing the same thing to the criminal that the criminal did to the innocent is justice. It does not make the one who administers that justice into a criminal.

Brace yourself for a million weak arguments about 'proportionality', 'mercy' and so on....

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> the other nations in peace must feel the pain the rest of the alliance suffered

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> I did not shape these terms but I believe in that strongly

[Azhrarn]

This discussion has shown conclusively that it was too early to offer terms – much too early. It began with an OP filled with lies and propaganda, and the flood of both has continued uninterrupted for 170 pages now. I feel like I should receive reparations just for reading all of this crap.

This discussion isn’t about who led the NPO in the past, or which alliances stood beside the NPO in the past. Those individuals who saw the error of the NPO’s ways and chose to leave the alliance are not on trial here. Neither are those alliances who may have gone along with the NPO in the past (whether out of fear or ambition) on trial here. This is all about the NPO, an alliance which even now refuses to accept responsibility for its past actions.

The first thing that needs to be kept in mind is that these are terms that are being imposed upon a defeated aggressor alliance – that alone makes them qualitatively different from the reparations (read “extortion”) which the NPO has imposed in the past upon defeated alliances which had been attacked on the basis of fabricated CBs.

Second, regardless of whether you accept the description of “atrocities” or not, the fact remains that the NPO has practiced PZI and EZI. The NPO has disbanded alliances. The NPO has imposed viceroys. The NPO has expelled government members. The NPO has taken control of forums and IRC channels. The NPO has violated peace terms. The NPO has changed the conditions of peace terms after said peace terms had already been signed. The NPO has decommissioned wonders and improvements. The NPO has attacked nations which had already surrendered and demilitarized. The NPO has extorted cash and tech. The NPO has done all these things and many, many more.

And claiming, for example, that no one can force an alliance to disband is no excuse, it’s semantics. The NPO did its utmost to force other alliances to disband. That was the intent, and it is undeniable. And when those alliances did in fact disband it was the NPO that was culpable.

When a bully gets his face punched in by someone’s older brother because he’s been going around for years stealing the lunch money of little kids and then beating them up afterwards, that’s not hypocrisy, it’s karma.

Hypocrisy is doing unto others as you would not have them do unto you, and then complaining when your victims finally strike back. That’s hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is an alliance that until now has always chanted the mantras of “Stop whining,” “Private channels, ftw,” and “Do something about it,” whenever some nation or alliance attempted to make Digiterra aware of yet another atrocity being committed by its membership. But now that Karma *is* doing something about it, all that NPO members can do is cry like little girls. NPO, the alliance that can dish it out but can’t take it. Now, that’s hypocrisy.

As Daedalus27 pointed out, these terms are meant to cripple the NPO’s war fighting capability. They’re not meant to fatten the coffers of Karma alliances, or to destroy the NPO as an alliance. So stop the propaganda, because you’re not fooling anyone.

[ChairmanHal]

Oh ok

Though how is it greed? If NPO didn't start the war by aggressively attacking OV, they would not have had to come in a help and suffer billions in damage. Damage which the reps still won't cover.

Or am I still missing the point?

Maybe the part where Karma had been planning on war for months (long before the coalition was called 'Karma') and OV was merely a pawn?

I agree that ultimately the reps probably won't cover all the damages. To me, that makes it even more imperative to end the war sooner rather than later (taking additional reps in lieu of this "extra war time period") if the goal of the war isn't the destruction of NPO.

[Paint Your Target]

End of an era.

[NoFish]

Maybe the part where Karma had been planning on war for months (long before the coalition was called 'Karma') and OV was merely a pawn?

I agree that ultimately the reps probably won't cover all the damages. To me, that makes it even more imperative to end the war sooner rather than later (taking additional reps in lieu of this "extra war time period") if the goal of the war isn't the destruction of NPO.

We were preparing for a war, not planning it. I'm sure you understand the difference, but in case anyone else misses it...

We had seen NPO's MO over the years and expected that they would attack us, or someone close to us to lure us into a war. We did not want to get rolled, so we made preparations out of self-defense. Acting as though NPO was somehow lured into a trap is just plain false - when this all started we weren't even sure we'd win.

Unless of course, GOD is just a pawn too, I suppose, in this grand scheme orchestrated by... I don't know. Hoo?

[NEWBert]

I still fail to see how in all these past coalitions and allied groups, the NPO becomes the only one involved. I'm not saying we're innocent here, but it's wrong to ignore others if you are going to persecute for past actions.

I think it's right on par with punishing NSO for NPO 'mistakes' while Ivan was emperor. It just doesn't make sense.

Edited June 15, 2009 by NEWBert

[bkphysics]

Maybe the part where Karma had been planning on war for months (long before the coalition was called 'Karma') and OV was merely a pawn?

You are misconstruing your own personal hunch as fact. I don't believe there has been any proof of Karma plotting this for months. Of course I am sure you will attest to something or hint at how it is just too convenient not to think that.

Now if the Karma forces had a IRC log admitting to having to plot or kill a long time ally that would be pretty damning. I think the NPO beat them to that punch though already if I recall correctly.

[kingzog]

I still fail to see how in all these past coalitions and allied groups, the NPO becomes the only one involved. I'm not saying we're innocent here, but it's wrong to ignore others if you are going to persecute for past actions.

I think it's right on par with punishing NSO for NPO 'mistakes' while Ivan was emperor. It just doesn't make sense.

Well, first I'd suggest dropping words like "persecute." "Prosecute" is a more apt word.

Yes, other alliances have taken part in the actions described. In some cases, said alliances appeared to be acting on their own, with the NPO apparently uninvolved. The fact remains, however, that in all of the cases brought up the NPO was the prime mover behind said events.

<insert obligatory mention of my letter here>

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> the other nations in peace must feel the pain the rest of the alliance suffered

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> I did not shape these terms but I believe in that strongly

Edited June 15, 2009 by kingzog

[NoFish]

I still fail to see how in all these past coalitions and allied groups, the NPO becomes the only one involved. I'm not saying we're innocent here, but it's wrong to ignore others if you are going to persecute for past actions.

I think it's right on par with punishing NSO for NPO 'mistakes' while Ivan was emperor. It just doesn't make sense.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. GATO/FAN is not a justification for our actions, it is, however a valid example for calling NPO out when they criticize these terms as overly harsh. GATO's terms, GPA's terms and FAN's lack thereof are all harsher than what is being offered. Numerous times I have suggested that if NPO wanted to take GATO's term's viceroy or GPA's term's indefinite 13 nuke limit I'm reasonably sure we would accept those terms and would be happy to negotiate with other coalition members to make that happen.

Yes. These are reps for OV and those who fought alongside them against unjustified aggression. They are not reps for GATO or FAN or GPA, they are reps for OV and VE and GOD and Vanguard and everyone else who fought alongside us against Pacifican belligerence.

I know this thread is huge and you don't want to read the whole thing before you post but c'mon, man, it was just a page ago.

[GADefence]

You aren't *letting* 700 of us pay the terms. According to the rules Karma set up, which are designed to make sure that we can't meet the terms, only a fraction of that 700 nations are allowed to pay reps. (And many of the nations on the "over 1,000 tech [EDIT: I wrote Infra, before], so they can pay the reps" list are already at ZI with no war chests.)

I love how people seem to forget the fact these terms were offered a while back when 180+ nations were applicable, rather then now when NPO is just a broken shell of lesser nations with PM upper nations/AA switched hiders.

I rather become the next FAN than be enslaved to Karma. It's one thing to pay reparations, it's another to take reps to a higher level in which it's borderline unethical.

We all play a game here and I'm probably not the only one who feels that destroying the game for others is wrong. I don't care about past actions or how things have played out involving my alliance, because quite frankly that shouldn't be a reason to break basic ethical code. Why make the same mistake as thy enemy?

This seriously reminds me of the states telling russia it's wrong to invade georga when it was in the middle of freeing iraq. . . (PS: If real life events aren't allowed to be posted, someone send me a PM, I found nothing in the R&G about it)

I've been fighting NPO since day one, and considering everything I've heard, and the fact I find hundred of people near my NS capable or rebuilding massive swathes of land in 1/4 seconds. . . I strongly believe NPO gets anything coming to them and should take it with a wide smile. Erase the past in the blood of the present.

Edited June 15, 2009 by GADefence

[SirDog]

I rather become the next FAN than be enslaved to Karma. It's one thing to pay reparations, it's another to take reps to a higher level in which it's borderline unethical.

We all play a game here and I'm probably not the only one who feels that destroying the game for others is wrong. I don't care about past actions or how things have played out involving my alliance, because quite frankly that shouldn't be a reason to break basic ethical code. Why make the same mistake as thy enemy?

Am I asking for sympathy? Damn right I am, but I'm in no way asking for white peace or lenient terms. What I'm asking for are reasonable, ethical terms.

As an NPO member NEWBert, I am fascinated by the phrases you use where you sparingly refer to notion of "ethics". To me this is simply rhetoric and subjective. Could you or any NPO member explain what they view as ethical reps? What formula do you apply? And also explain what this "basic ethical code" that NPO abides by when it comes to reparations, and how NPO applied ethical reparations in the last few wars?

[Innerspeaker]

I still fail to see how in all these past coalitions and allied groups, the NPO becomes the only one involved. I'm not saying we're innocent here, but it's wrong to ignore others if you are going to persecute for past actions.

I think it's right on par with punishing NSO for NPO 'mistakes' while Ivan was emperor. It just doesn't make sense.

I fail to see why you can't just accept the fact that despite the actions of other alliances, it has been the NPO at the center of nearly every conflict in which such attrocities mentioned above were committed. And likewise, Karma is winning this war. They can do whatever the hell they want to do, and with any justification, regardless of "ethics" or "morals". Ethics and morals don't exist in CN when it all comes down to which alliance will come out on top, and this is especially true of the NPO. I mean, seriously, just look at the hypocrisy of the OP. Every single post in this thread should say "Private channels ftw" or "This certainly won't help your reps" just in spite of all the times the NPO has done the same thing.

[mykep]

Forever indeed

Am I asking for sympathy? Damn right I am

No.