Joint Announcement from The Sweet Oblivion and The Order of the Paradox

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

I never understood why the victorious party would have to say "ok here are some terms if you want out of the war" I would think that the losing alliance would have to make their desire to surrender known and then the victors would formulate terms.

Just seems to make more sense my way.

I was told Echelon have been asking for terms for the past couple of weeks. I might be wrong here though, but I'm sure that the involved parties can confirm this or not.

[King Srqt]

I was told Echelon have been asking for terms for the past couple of weeks. I might be wrong here though, but I'm sure that the involved parties can confirm this or not.

Well i was gov in an alliance at war with them a couple of weeks ago and I never heard about it.

[Nizzle]

I was told Echelon have been asking for terms for the past couple of weeks. I might be wrong here though, but I'm sure that the involved parties can confirm this or not.

If I'm to understand the various posts across the boards, they have been asking for their treaty partners to get peace before they exit themselves. Not sure, kinda like you.

Well i was gov in an alliance at war with them a couple of weeks ago and I never heard about it.

That may not be a surprise if you take a look at the dreaded NPO Reps Count thread.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Nizzle

[Roadie]

That's why I said "If". You would be making something up if you were referring to their DoW. Now that you have clarified, we're not in disagreement on this matter.

Go back and reread the post you replied to. There is nothing in it that could possibly be made up at all. Unless you think the impression I stated was indeed not my impression?

[tamerlane]

Its always nice to plan ahead.

[Matthew Conrad]

Go back and reread the post you replied to. There is nothing in it that could possibly be made up at all. Unless you think the impression I stated was indeed not my impression?

If you really want to drag this out, be my guest.

You said, I quote:

Wouldn't change much from TPFs side. I doubt it would for many other hegemonites either, to be honest. And my impression (which could be wrong) is that the Karma side generally thinks reasonably well of Torns actions, so I doub't having more info would change much.

TORN committed 2 actions during the early stages of this war. First, they attacked OV. Second, they apologized for attacking OV and left the war. Your post refers to Karma thinking reasonably well of TORN's actions. As I stated above, there were two such actions and you didn't specify to which you were referring to. As I stated earlier, I used the word if for a good reason. I put forth two scenarios, effectively responding to both possible actions. I said I hope you meant the apology because then we wouldn't be in disagreement. Then I said if you were referring to their attack on OV, you would be making things up because I don't see how anyone could logically conclude Karma's appreciation of that action based on that evidence.

If you still don't understand why you would be "making things up" if you had been referring to TORN's DoW in relation to how Karma thought about it, I don't think I can go anymore in depth.

[Dr. Dan]

I was told Echelon have been asking for terms for the past couple of weeks. I might be wrong here though, but I'm sure that the involved parties can confirm this or not.

I can confirm that Echelon made it clear they wanted out once AB was given peace so far as TOP goes. The rest, I am not certain.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

Hopefully this war has been educational for you guys.

Congrats to Echelon, TOP, and TSO (can't believe I had to say that). Hope Echelon can reach some peace with the rest of their opponents shortly (no, I don't care if it isn't "white peace").

an odd move, but a fair enough one. TOP is now in a position where the way they operate is going to be scrutinised greatly- I hope they are up to the task, history certainly suggests that they are.

PYT.

Thank you both for your kind words.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

If their internal process prevents them from making decisions in a time frame that might actually have an effect on something then I think it is time to look at revising that.

Actually, I think I agree with this to a certain degree. Our long-winded internal debates and the resultant TOP speed of decision-making has not always worked out very well for us at times in the past

Believe me though, we're working on trying to improve things.

[HeinousOne]

Wouldn't change much from TPFs side. I doubt it would for many other hegemonites either, to be honest. And my impression (which could be wrong) is that the Karma side generally thinks reasonably well of Torns actions, so I doub't having more info would change much.

Yes, it is highly commendable that they were able to work out such a deal under the strain of the massive war that was brought upon them and not of their own making. It is commendable that while all this happened to them they were still able to somehow come away with such good terms so that they would still be able to defend their other treaty partners. They showed us all that Torn knows how to play the game. So of course everyone on this side thinks highly of them and cant wait till this war is over so we can compete for their friendship.

[Delta1212]

Just for clarity's sake, the number of alliances involved thanks to Echelon's very broad declaration of war meant it took something like a week to figure out what terms everyone wanted to offer once the process was started, and we didn't get going on that until after AB had peaced out.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Delta1212

[Xiphosis]

I can confirm that Echelon made it clear they wanted out once AB was given peace so far as TOP goes. The rest, I am not certain.

From GOD's side we were told they were willing to surrender, but preferred AB get out first. /shrug

[bzelger]

I have to say, you'd think that those most maligning TOP and TSO in this thread had won the war all by themselves. This war was over, I mean OVER, the second that TOP left tC. Talk about a Gladwellian Tipping Point. Don't believe me? Run the numbers through again, but with TOP still in tC and see who else they keep out/bring in. And don't act like it was a fait accompli before that, cause it wasn't.

That doesn't mean that TOP didn't put less than their full weight in this conflict, I'll leave others more accomplished to decide that, but it would be a very different world if your nukes were aimed at them, and not your knives at their throats.

Reps lead to hard feelings and knives out. Just ask Polar.

Sorry to drag this back several pages, but it seems to me that Polar is the best example you can find of someone swallowing fully-justified bitterness and moving forward as best as one can hope under the circumstances.

More on topic, this seems like a mess of misunderstandings (both unintentional and intentional), manufactured outrage mingled with the real variety, and the ugly product of much more than the actual subject of the thread. Nobody's coming out looking great, but I wish you all the best of luck resolving it anyway.

[x Tela x]

From GOD's side we were told they were willing to surrender, but preferred AB get out first. /shrug

I'd like to see a quote from a leader saying that. If it exists, they misspoke, because I know without a doubt that they wouldn't have left without AB.

[Xiphosis]

I'd like to see a quote from a leader saying that. If it exists, they misspoke, because I know without a doubt that they wouldn't have left without AB.

BarkEaters. Believe he was MoFA att, if not still.

(OOC)Will find the logs if I can, not sure which channel/query I had it relayed to me in.(/OOC)

[x Tela x]

BarkEaters. Believe he was MoFA att, if not still.

(OOC)Will find the logs if I can, not sure which channel/query I had it relayed to me in.(/OOC)

Would require a council vote or Directorate authorization, I assume. (New constitution. I don't know it well.)

Either way, it's a minor point, as the reality is that Echelon wouldn't have left AB out to dry, since they entered on Echelon's behalf. I just wanted to address that before someone ran off with your quote and called someone a naughty name because of it. Or something.

If you say he said it, then he said it. Would not have been the end of the discussion, if it had continued past that point.

[Xiphosis]

[ooc][18:44] <Barkeaters[Echelon]> Well it is our opinion that we asked them to come in and leaving them hanging is not honorable. I am sure that if you were given the same situation you would make the same choice. We are not perfect but at least feel this is the right thing to do. I still think an offer could be made though.[/ooc]

Just since I said I would if I found it.

I will say on another note, since it's come up, that probably the biggest delay in drafting either set of terms (for AB or Echelon both) was that we didn't expect the war to be short, at all, and hadn't even discussed internally what we'd want to see. When it became apparent that we weren't going to die, we had to consult the members (getting nuked for a few weeks straight earns you a say, even in a dictatorship) along with the rest of the front.

That, and we just plain enjoy this.

[Harold the Saxon]

Quite a divided world seems to be lingering in the wake of this past month's revelations. Politically uncertain, that is for sure.

[Gen Lee]

I love this OP - but not for the reasons most do. It's a masterful example of modern propaganda.

First, our dear Gen Lee Crymson portrays Ragnarok TOP under attack. Here, he casts Bama, TOP and IRON GOD as shadowy agent provocateurs, smearing the just and honorable morals of TOPrelation of Ragnarok. For you see, in public relations, sympathy is almost always cast with the defender, and with the increasing role of public relations within the politics of Planet Bob, one must always make sure to convincingly play the victim in order to get broader support.

So bravo, good sir, I would recommend this to anybody new to playing the PR game on Planet Bob. You risk nothing (except perhaps people like me calling you out on it) and gain a broader support base.

Or would you perhaps like to prove that this is not just some big bit of bravado?

What a joke, your immature display of "honor" was hilarious. You stormed out with a planned script and with the attention grabbing drama a 14 year old girl couldn't recreate. Loaded propaganda thread expected.

I for one hail our new moral overlords.

[LOLtex]

nevermind.

Edited June 1, 2009 by LOLtex

[Crymson]

Since such was not sufficiently clarified: much of our objection to the terms presented to Echelon came from the presence of some terms that we felt were humiliating. While some of these were pruned from the original version of the terms, the following were not:

10. Should Caffine1 ever rejoin Echelon, he must put and keep "I valued my infra so much I hid in peace mode for the entirety of the Karma War" in his nation bio indefinitely. This term will not apply to any rerolls of Caffine1

11. Echelon must maintain a cute demeanor for the duration of these terms. Any change in demeanor from cute is grounds for the immediate resumption of hostilities.

We did indeed feel that the reparations numbers included were too high, as they constituted more than half of Echelon's total amount of technology. While we would have been willing to reach some sort of compromise on this, we would not have in any circumstance agreed to any specific terms that we felt were humiliating.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Crymson

[Nizzle]

What a joke, your immature display of "honor" was hilarious. You stormed out with a planned script and with the attention grabbing drama a 14 year old girl couldn't recreate. Loaded propaganda thread expected.

I for one hail our new moral overlords.

Yeah man, your edit definitely reflects what happened here. Spot on.

[Big Z]

Since such was not sufficiently clarified: much of our objection to the terms presented to Echelon came from the presence of some terms that we felt were humiliating. While some of these were pruned from the original version of the terms, the following were not:

11 is a joke term, in reference to the following irc quote:

<Caffine[Echelon]> KaitlinK[MA] your demeanor is not cute, if you value your alliance and your infra I'd knock it the $%&@ off

With regards to 10, since Caffine1, according to Echelon, is no longer a member and has quit the game, I fail to see how it would humiliate Echelon as a whole, unless of course Caffine was planning to "rejoin" Echelon immediately after the war ended?

Of course, your post is also the very first time I've heard of these objections in particular. Perhaps if you had conveyed them earlier, we might have been able to compromise, rather than have this entire thread?

[Neuromancer7]

11 is a joke term, in reference to the following irc quote:

With regards to 10, since Caffine1, according to Echelon, is no longer a member and has quit the game, I fail to see how it would humiliate Echelon as a whole, unless of course Caffine was planning to "rejoin" Echelon immediately after the war ended?

Of course, your post is also the very first time I've heard of these objections in particular. Perhaps if you had conveyed them earlier, we might have been able to compromise, rather than have this entire thread?

Perhaps it could have been had TOP and TSO had an opportunity to discuss the terms with the Victorious alliances Prior to meeting with Echelon to present the terms.

Which is kind of what the OP was about.

Edit: Furthermore, that's evidently what Members of TSO/TOP gov THOUGHT they were walking into when it was actually Victor's presenting terms to Echelon.

And it was mentioned earlier, You'll have to forgive me I forced myself to delve through the whole thread so I lost track of where, that We (TSO and TOP) could have easily signed on the same treaty that will eventually be negotiated and simply declined reparations. But there were a number of terms that ALL alliances accepting the surrender would have been obligated to enforce. Number 11 and 10 referenced above being a selection of them. I personally, and every other member of TSO I've heard of, and most of the TOP members I know well, would think VERY carefully before signing on ANY treaty stipulation that had an indefinite duration. Others were in poor taste even if they were a "Joke".

Finally. Members of TSO were hit by nuclear rogues from Echelon in this conflict. So it's not as though nobody at all on TSO/TOP's side suffered nuclear anarchy.

Edited to add the line of text that is immediately after the word "Edit".

Edited June 1, 2009 by Neuromancer7

[Vol Navy]

More good stuff here.

Sides shaping up, fun times on Bob.

Ironic thing is all this accusing TOP of being Hegemony and sticking up for their "Hegemony friends" when GOD and RoK are also part of the same Hegemony.

They sure were on the side of Q/Cit during the Polar rolling and RoK was tied closely to NPO up until a few weeks before the war.

So in this thread we have a couple of former Hegemony alliances who are acting just about like old Hegemony alliances with high reps/non-standard terms that had so many outraged but they are being backed by the people who were outraged by the old ways.

You have another former Hegemony alliance who is actually following through with the "change" on Bob theme Karma rolled out with and a change from their previous stances which is what Karma was supposed to bring about and they are getting called out on it.