New Pacific Order Reps Race

[The Poet]

You can stop the predictions anytime you want.

Given the flip flops and pre-terms...I think its natural for him to assume Reps on the harsher side as per your own words and actions.

Just fyi, your alliance is trying to move away from the Hegemony and towards TOP. You might want to think about a new party line to start towing.

[Lord Brendan]

So you're saying they wouldn't have tried to destroy the ring if Sauron hadn't attack at Minas Tirith? I'm trying to clatify because I'm not sure I get the anology.

No, I'm saying that nobody had any attention of using the Ring against Sauron. Sauron simply didn't understand how anyone could wish to destroy the Ring instead of using it for themselves, so he assumed he was going to be attacked with it.

[boscher]

Unconditional surrender is the only option.

[Haflinger]

Will the NPO be able to recover like it did last time, or is this truly the death knell for their domination of the game? It's really not that clear at this point - a case could be made for things going either way. Especially if the NPO manages to salvage a few of its previous friendships and keep a few of their older allies (and they almost certain will - not EVERYONE turned on them this time around... something they're sure to remember).

I'd like to point out at this time the fundamental dissimilarity between this war and GW1 in terms of NPO allies.

Before GW1, NPO did not have many allies; they were relying on Polaris and Legion. The effect of the war was to produce a fundamental shift in their approach, towards recruiting a much larger number of smaller allies, to avoid becoming dependent on alliances like Legion.

Before this war, NPO had a ton of allies. They've shown in the past that losing wars produces shifts in their foreign policy; I think that's going to repeat.

[Denial]

You can stop the predictions anytime you want.

Given the flip flops and pre-terms...I think its natural for him to assume Reps on the harsher side as per your own words and actions.

What flip-flops? What pre-terms? There have been no flip-flops. There were never any "pre-terms" given; an ultimatum was given. The only prerequisite to the New Pacific Order receiving surrender terms was the realisation of certain goals by those Karma alliances on the Pacific front. Those goals revolved around actually winning the war (shocking, I know) and appropriately reprimanding the New Pacific Order for initiating a global conflict by attacking a small alliance, for no justifiable reason, during peace negotiations. I realise that conveniently ignoring common sense and erasing from your mind the recent history of even your own alliance is the only way you can actually string together your nonsensical arguments, but please, stop believing your own side's propaganda.

[Haflinger]

Those goals revolved around actually winning the war (shocking, I know)

Is it your contention then that Karma has not yet won the war?

Jeez, and people complained about Vladimir.

[Denial]

Is it your contention then that Karma has not yet won the war?

Is the war over? Have the New Pacific Order, The Phoenix Federation and Echelon been provided with, and accepted, surrender terms? Have those Karma alliances remaining on the battlefield declared victory? No? Then it has yet to be won. I'm sure you could have worked this one out on your own.

[bkphysics]

Is it your contention then that Karma has not yet won the war?

Jeez, and people complained about Vladimir.

What is your factor which determines winning the war?

I think only the Karma front can state an answer to that TBH.

The NPO and friends are beaten down, sure, but just because you took a really bad spanking doesn't mean the war is over. War's have objectives and simply because the NS has dwindled down significantly has no bearing on the whether or not a war's objective is complete.

Which begs the question:

What is the objective of this war? When will it be met?

I encourage all to wait for an official Karma response rather than the various peanut galleries.

[Denial]

I'd like to point out at this time the fundamental dissimilarity between this war and GW1 in terms of NPO allies.

Before GW1, NPO did not have many allies; they were relying on Polaris and Legion. The effect of the war was to produce a fundamental shift in their approach, towards recruiting a much larger number of smaller allies, to avoid becoming dependent on alliances like Legion.

Before this war, NPO had a ton of allies. They've shown in the past that losing wars produces shifts in their foreign policy; I think that's going to repeat.

In the period before the First Great War, the New Pacific Order was also allied to GATO and IGC. The former re-evaluated its foreign policy and instead aligned with the LUEnited Nations, while the latter assisted Pacifican aggression in the First Great War. Nonetheless, your very own comparison is not entirely valid. Yes, prior to the Karma War, the New Pacific Order did maintain a vast array of allies, which consisted of a large portion of the relevant alliances in the Cyberverse. However, while the New Pacific Order possessed only a handful of in the pre-GWI era, those allies it did maintain were large and influential enough to comprise a sizeable portion of the relevant alliances in the Cyberverse also. Those that Pacifica weren't allied to were either playing the role of opposition (LUEnited Nations) or had previously been at war with them (NAAC, ODN). Had the Cyberverse contained more players and alliances in the pre-GWI era, it's more than likely that the number of Pacifica's allies would have also increased. This really leads into this ridiculous notion that people parade around the forums that Dilber somehow "revolutionised" Pacifican foreign policy and Cyberverse foreign policy in general. Yes, Dilber's Pacifica generally approached the game different Ivan's, but that's as far as it goes; the MDP web already existed (Pacifica spent a month after GWI complaining about it, only to mirror it shortly after), the idea of an MDOAP had already been implemented (UFO), a bloc existed well before The Initiative and The League (Independence Council, as well as the discussions of the Spectrum Defence Accords), and so on.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Revanche

[Nizzle]

Is the war over? Have the New Pacific Order, The Phoenix Federation and Echelon been provided with, and accepted, surrender terms? Have those Karma alliances remaining on the battlefield declared victory? No? Then it has yet to be won. I'm sure you could have worked this one out on your own.

I'm fairly sure if presented with reasonable terms, minus these absurd "pre-terms", all parties would surrender.

I'm also fairly sure that, regardless of what definition you try to use aside from "ZI everyone", they are soundly beaten. The war is effectively won, it just hasn't been declared at an end. I'm quite surprised you missed that.

Well, then again, there is a good chance you would fully enjoy seeing every nation ZI'd. At least, that's the statement being made by multiple members of your front here. Who knows, though, none of you can even agree on these pre-terms and what they mean.

EDIT: Can we stop with the history lessons, everyone? The world has changed a lot since the "glory" days where it took 15 million to make a nation a killing machine.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Nizzle

[Haflinger]

What is your factor which determines winning the war?

At update on May the 7th, after which time the wiki people stopped bothering to track the numbers, Karma had 203 million NS, and Hegemony had 38 million.

If 38 beats 203, well this is pretty much silly.

[TECUMSEH]

Interesting. Well, I for one remain on pins and needles to see who wins this war.

Is the war over? Have the New Pacific Order, The Phoenix Federation and Echelon been provided with, and accepted, surrender terms? Have those Karma alliances remaining on the battlefield declared victory? No? Then it has yet to be won.

I admit that I thought that Karma had decisively won the war and now it was just a matter of exacting a price, be it cash, tech, or war damage, on NPO. Apparently, however, if Karma never offers surrender terms and/or NPO never accepts, the war isn't over and Karma won't "win" the war which, ergo, means NPO won't lose the war.

NPO's "undefeated" stretch -- heh -- may be preserved if they can just stick it out in peace mode ad infinitum.

[Teriethien]

Arguing over whether the war's been won/over is silly at this stage.

[bkphysics]

At update on May the 7th, after which time the wiki people stopped bothering to track the numbers, Karma had 203 million NS, and Hegemony had 38 million.

If 38 beats 203, well this is pretty much silly.

To you then, NS differences determine the victor in the war.

Not exactly terrible logic, but it begs the question. When all the curb stomps prior to this point were happening, it would seem the wars were over before they even began as the victimized parties were never a considerable threat to the attacking parties? As well, look at the NPO's war with FAN. Clearly FAN ceased being a considerable threat to the NPO a long time ago and the war was essentially over. It still continued though until recently??

[Alterego]

Is this another one of those glorious predictions of yours, like when you said BAPS wouldn't be allowed to surrender and you would be EZI'd?

More like another glorious exaggeration of something I said. Prove me wrong and name the reps or have whoever is in charge name the reps.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Alterego

[Mussolandia]

Weren't you a long-time member of the NPO?

Your farce with FAN went two years man; enjoy the show.

Yes, I was, so what?

The NPO was wrong in waging the war for so long. Karma will suffer if they continue punishing the NPO beyond what some of its members consider appropriate. That is all.

[shahenshah]

Just fyi, your alliance is trying to move away from the Hegemony and towards TOP. You might want to think about a new party line to start towing.

Assuming from conditioning you must have gotten, I understand you find this to be paradoxical, I don't think not supporting NPO and calling spade a spade is in anyway a paradox.

[Mussolandia]

I'd be willing to bet that's precisely what the NPO is counting on. After all, that's basically what happened during the first Great War - the CoaLUEtion started to fall apart as those who thought the Orders had suffered enough and would never recover slowly started declaring peace, forcing the alliances who wanted to keep the war going until the Orders were completely destroyed to either declare peace as well or be left in a fight with fewer and fewer allies.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen in this case... as time passes, and the NPO manages to get more and more nations into Peace Mode (of possibly even sending them off into exile under other AAs), the various alliances attacking them will either start to grow bored, or decide the NPO has suffered enough, or otherwise begin to back off the pressure. The dissolution of Karma as a unified front means that, once the big guns start to pull out, the smaller fish are either going to have to stand down as well, or risk their own destruction once the NPO is able to drag itself back to its feet.

Of course, boredom is a relative thing... and whether that sort of loss of interest kicks in after a few more weeks, a few more months, or a few more years is going to decide whether the strategy of trying to ride out the storm is something the NPO can afford. If they outlast the enemy, but the war ends with the NPO reduced to 4m NS and ~200 members, how viable are they going to be?

First of all, I am honored that you took time to respond to my post.

I believe it is all a matter of numbers and time. The NPO was, at the time of the end of Great War I, still relatively powerful compared to its opponents. It then gathered allies out of alliance who were neutral/not really committed to the war effort in Great War I and, most importantly, from new communities that came to prominence after the war (GOONS, FAN). There simply won't be new invasions into the game - virtually every online community has been tapped. The NPO now has "history" with scores of alliances. It has always been good in turning enemies into allies - but has it truly ever managed to regain a significant, lost ally? In terms of sheer strength, the NPO is now massively outmatched. There is simply no way they can outgrow the opposition. The NpO, the last alliance to significantly recover from a war, did not face the kind of political problems the NPO is facing and will continue to face. This time, it is different. The NPO is weak and alone. For good.

On the other hand, I believe the NPO has lost enough by now to make the 2-3 million strength they have left to lose something worth sacrificing. The membership count is a real issue, though, and one the NPO will have to consider. I doubt many newcomers will enjoy sitting in peace mode for months/years.

The NPO is certainly banking on divide and conquer. Vladimir himself admitted on his writings what you state, regarding Great War I peace. And on this point, I believe they are following the right course of action. Karma is already dissolving. There are obvious contradictions between the members that have opposed the Hegemony from the beginning and the rats that left the ship when it started sinking. Also, the post I quoted above is a perfect example of the type of philosophy not all Karma members share. I'm sure some people are outraged by now by the type of vindictiveness. These terms (as well as other proposals I have heard about) are the worst I have ever seen an alliance receive. I am confident they won't stand long.

[renegade4box]

Yes, I was, so what?

The NPO was wrong in waging the war for so long. Karma will suffer if they continue punishing the NPO beyond what some of its members consider appropriate. That is all.

Quitting before they've won a decision victory is just asking to be destroyed 6 months down the line. NPO right now can still rebuild to be a very top power.

[shahenshah]

Quitting before they've won a decision victory is just asking to be destroyed 6 months down the line. NPO right now can still rebuild to be a very top power.

:/ whatever happened to the 'strong resolve', j/k ;p, Musso makes a good point about NPO being in totally different situation than it was in GW1. Revanche, I'll get back to your points later on, RL :/

[Mussolandia]

A decisive victory has been achieved. People need to accept the world has changed and the situation the NPO faces right now is very different than they did in 2006. It is not so much their own strength they have relied on for the past three years, but their political capital. That is gone and buried six feet under. 6 million, 5, 4... it doesn't really matter.

[Alterego]

Quitting before they've won a decision victory is just asking to be destroyed 6 months down the line. NPO right now can still rebuild to be a very top power.

Thats where we are now. NPO has lost most of their treaties, lost the vast majority of their NS and lost hundreds of members. The next step seems to be to beat them to a position so they can never properly rebuild, why else would no real terms for surrender be available unless they take a further beat down. Thats not breaking up Hegemony or punishing NPO its an attempt to permanently cripple them as an alliance.

[Haflinger]

To you then, NS differences determine the victor in the war.

Not exactly terrible logic, but it begs the question. When all the curb stomps prior to this point were happening, it would seem the wars were over before they even began as the victimized parties were never a considerable threat to the attacking parties? As well, look at the NPO's war with FAN. Clearly FAN ceased being a considerable threat to the NPO a long time ago and the war was essentially over. It still continued though until recently??

Your logic is impeccable.

[Nizzle]

Quitting before they've won a decision victory is just asking to be destroyed 6 months down the line. NPO right now can still rebuild to be a very top power.

Wait what?

I think a decisive victory could possibly be turning a 20 mil NS alliance into a 5 mil NS alliance.

[Roadie]

Wait what?

I think a decisive victory could possibly be turning a 20 mil NS alliance into a 5 mil NS alliance.

It's safe to say that at this point, being at war with NPO is about more than just there NS or actual ability and/or desire to take over the world again. I suspect there's still as use for a common boogeyman.