Justice For Traitors

[D34th]

So what if NPO is attacked in 6 months?

1. "Karma" the group will have satisfied its collective moral imperative not to go against karma the concept. The onus for attacking NPO will be on whatever individual alliance attacks it, not on Karma as a whole.

2. Presumably NPO will be large enough to put up such a fight than nobody would want to attack them 1 on 1.

3. Even then, the terms could be coupled with a protectorate status.

No problem if NPO got attacked in 6 months for an alliance or a group of them and haven't allies for defend them because surrender terms imposed by KARMA forbid NPO of have allies. Do you know it was exactly what NPO did with LoSS right? And Karma are fighting against NPO because thisk kind of things that they did in past. If KARMA do the same thing what will differentiate you of them?

And people still ask me why I have no much faith in KARMA.

[Akama]

Karma War is a horrible name for this war, it should be changed to The Slap on the Wrist War.

[Doug Falkner]

Since someone actually agreed with me for once, I thought I'd expand on what I said earlier. It seems to me that the only danger from the Hegemony alliances in the future, is if the current Karma alliances make the mistake of alienating them. If we find ourselves shunned by other alliances of course we will continue to band together to regain a dominant position. But, if on the other hand, we're reintegrated into the community of Planet Bob, then there might be a real possibility of achieving some sort of peace and some sort of equality between alliances (though I actually doubt that will happen, I don't think we're the biggest threat for tyranny anymore, as I've noted several times).

[Adrian LaCroix]

I suppose it depends on what you hope to accomplish with this war. If you intend to build a new world out of it, you first must burn the old one to the ground. There is no doing things half-way.

Of course, if you simply want to be fair, just, etc., the pattern that has held so far is perfectly fine for that purpose.

[RandomInterrupt]

No problem if NPO got attacked in 6 months for an alliance or a group of them and haven't allies for defend them because surrender terms imposed by KARMA forbid NPO of have allies. Do you know it was exactly what NPO did with LoSS right? And Karma are fighting against NPO because thisk kind of things that they did in past. If KARMA do the same thing what will differentiate you of them?

The difference is, LoSS didn't do anything to require them to be isolated. The NPO has. It's the same reason murders are given life in prison, sometimes in isolation, whereas a car thief would get a far shorter sentence. As I, and others have said many times now, the punishment needs to fit the crime. The NPO has a big ol' crime, hence they should get a bigger sentence than anyone else in the war. I don't understand why this is a hard concept unless you are just trying to make points to somehow discredit Karma...

And people still ask me why I have no much faith in KARMA.

Makes more sense now! Are you saying you have no faith because of a theoretical discussion involving mostly members who aren't in Karma? I get that you are trying hard to put down Karma, but you have failed to make a solid point on anything yet.

[Cirrus]

No problem if NPO got attacked in 6 months for an alliance or a group of them and haven't allies for defend them because surrender terms imposed by KARMA forbid NPO of have allies. Do you know it was exactly what NPO did with LoSS right? And Karma are fighting against NPO because thisk kind of things that they did in past. If KARMA do the same thing what will differentiate you of them?

And people still ask me why I have no much faith in KARMA.

2. Presumably NPO will be large enough to put up such a fight than nobody would want to attack them 1 on 1.

3. Even then, the terms could be coupled with a protectorate status.

[SpoiL]

Should at least get the tech equal to the NS lost.

[Cirrus]

Also, just to be on record as having said this (I really hope it has already occurred to everyone): The "Karma are hypocrites if they give NPO tough terms" argument is nonsense. It would be true if Karma gave everyone harsh terms, but singling out the one singular party that is primarily responsible for the current state of the game in order to ensure they can't break it again is NOT the same.

[pasquali]

This entire premise is utter foolishness. Karma is supposed to be consequences for actions. You sound like you're a member of NPO the way you're spouting off about punishment for "traitors". If they're traitors, of what consequence is it to you? Were you betrayed by them? Are you one of their current allies? If not, you have no stake whatsoever in their supposed betrayal.

Consequences for actions. Ok, what actions did OG take? How many tech raid curbstomps for the lulz did they commit? Lemme think... none. They attacked Vox because Vox was created for the sole purpose of taking down one of their allies. I'd say that makes them a pretty decent ally.

Alright, so if OG isn't a griefer alliance, exactly what actions do they need to pay consequences for? They honored the Q treaty and went to NPO's defense against GR. They came in on the losing side of the war, and they fought and bled to honor their committments. Now they've been removed from that war, and it's over.

It sounds to me like you want an alliance to pay for actions that others have taken. Or perhaps you want to be able to dictate other alliance's foreign affairs, and destroy them simply because they signed a treaty with someone you don't like. Hmm, that sounds kind of like pure excrement to me.

Their supposed betrayal is absolutely nothing that concerns you, unless you're one of their current allies or the ones that got "betrayed". I am one of their current allies, and I am still proud to be allied to them. I have no hesitation about having them at my back, and I would step in to defend them in a heartbeat.

I suggest getting back to the business of bringing consequences for actual actions to alliances that have actually done objectionable things.

[Il Duce]

Why should we give easy terms to the NPO? They perma-ZI nations that might've wronged them so that they will never rejoin Cybernations. Indeed, their presence has driven many good players from this game. They are the root cause of nearly all Planet Bob mischief and to let them off easy would be a grave error on the part of Karma.

This is not real life. Lives are not at risk. There are no Winston Churchills in CN.

[Cirrus]

Karma is supposed to be consequences for actions.

Indeed. And the consequence for NPO's actions ought to be that the rest of us don't allow them the opportunity to do those same actions again.

The rest of the Hegemony alliances should get soft terms, but NPO's actions specifically require a different set of consequences.

[D34th]

The difference is, LoSS didn't do anything to require them to be isolated. The NPO has. It's the same reason murders are given life in prison, sometimes in isolation, whereas a car thief would get a far shorter sentence. As I, and others have said many times now, the punishment needs to fit the crime. The NPO has a big ol' crime, hence they should get a bigger sentence than anyone else in the war. I don't understand why this is a hard concept unless you are just trying to make points to somehow discredit Karma...

I never said that NPO need get white peace or need lenitent terms, the problem with you is that if someone has a point of view different of yours do you think he is against you. I agree that punishment needs to fit the crime, but I don't believe that justice is the real reason behind KARMA ideals or that the cyberverse will be a wonderful place just because NPO isn't #1 anymore.

Makes more sense now! Are you saying you have no faith because of a theoretical discussion involving mostly members who aren't in Karma? I get that you are trying hard to put down Karma, but you have failed to make a solid point on anything yet.

I saw many members who belong to KARMA alliances who are asking for NPO disbandment not just in this threads, I have saw the behaviors of members who belong to KARMA alliances treating their enemys in OWF. I believe the some KARMA leaders are honorable people but there aren't just angels in KARMA.

But one more time you think that someone has a different point of view of yours are aginst you, I'm not trying hard to put down Karma. I just have a different view, can I? If you say no I'll have another reason to haven't so much faith in KARMA.

[Vilien]

Why should we give easy terms to the NPO? They perma-ZI nations that might've wronged them so that they will never rejoin Cybernations. Indeed, their presence has driven many good players from this game. They are the root cause of nearly all Planet Bob mischief and to let them off easy would be a grave error on the part of Karma.

This is not real life. Lives are not at risk. There are no Winston Churchills in CN.

Conflicting areas of your argument have been bolded for emphasis. I did not think it was possible for one to admonish the NPO for doing something, and then turn around and suggest that the exact same be done to them. Apparently, it is not so much of a stretch as I had thought.

[pasquali]

Indeed. And the consequence for NPO's actions ought to be that the rest of us don't allow them the opportunity to do those same actions again.

The rest of the Hegemony alliances should get soft terms, but NPO's actions specifically require a different set of consequences.

I have no objection to that. "For with the measure you are measuring out, you will be measured out in return." My point is, "KILL THEM ALL" is assinine and goes well beyond the cry of karma. When deciding terms, make them fit the crimes that have been committed by the alliance in question.

That is all.

[ModusOperandi]

I will not stand and watch myself become the monster i am fighting. True virtues are consistent.

Heh, a wise man named Winston Churchill had a thing or two to say about appeasement.

[Vilien]

Heh, a wise man named Winston Churchill had a thing or two to say about appeasement.

And this is appeasement how?

[Chief Savage Man]

Heh, a wise man named Winston Churchill had a thing or two to say about appeasement.

If you're gonna godwin a thread, at the very least have your godwin make some kind of sense.

[RandomInterrupt]

I never said that NPO need get white peace or need lenitent terms, the problem with you is that if someone has a point of view different of yours do you think he is against you. I agree that punishment needs to fit the crime, but I don't believe that justice is the real reason behind KARMA ideals or that the cyberverse will be a wonderful place just because NPO isn't #1 anymore.

And now you're already reverting to attacks on my character while ignoring my argument entire followed by attacks on the character of all of Karma... Does goodthink still exist? If so I suggest checking it out.

I saw many members who belong to KARMA alliances who are asking for NPO disbandment not just in this threads, I have saw the behaviors of members who belong to KARMA alliances treating their enemys in OWF. I believe the some KARMA leaders are honorable people but there aren't just angels in KARMA.

If you think Karma is being hostile towards the NPO on the forum, where were you last year? The way the NPO treated Polar alone was worse. It's also pretty established that the leadership of Karma will decide the surrender terms, not the members who post on the forums. Again, a simple concept.

But one more time you think that someone has a different point of view of yours are aginst you, I'm not trying hard to put down Karma. I just have a different view, can I? If you say no I'll have another reason to haven't so much faith in KARMA.

Seriously, this is just pathetic. 1. I am not a part of Karma. 2. Learn to deal with arguments and not simply attack people. 3. You are the reason your leaders issue gag orders. I am surprised there isn't one now, actually. and 4. Please look at my history within the alliance you claim to be your home and then state that I refuse to tolerate anyone with an opposing view. Your statement is ignorant and offensive and I hope it is not shared by many of your alliance-mates.

But please, go ahead and continue to base your entire opinion on Karma based on the posting of people who aren't in Karma alliances and members who are not in decision making positions of Karma alliances. This is clearly the best way to form an opinion on how they will act.

[RandomInterrupt]

Heh, a wise man named Winston Churchill had a thing or two to say about appeasement.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Doug Falkner]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I think he just called everyone Neville Chamberlain. I'm not sure how that really makes sense but....

[heggo]

What is this isolate them nonsense? Make their alliance into naught but a distant memory. The people will persist and surely will form new alliances, but without the banners of the old scoundrels and spineless fools to march under. And with that, we would have once more decent conflicts.

[AlmightyGrub]

This is sad to see. Alliances like Polar are different from alliances like the NPO. There is a difference because some of us cultivated said differences. In the same time where you found out that we aren't all that different I was discovering how different some of us are. It was eye opening for sure.

In regards to the rest of your post, you state that you will "come for" those who would dispatch harsh terms. Why? You are not a part of Karma nor a part of the opposition to it. You have no say. If Polar were to have been a part of Karma I am sure it would be better off and your views would be important in shaping it, but from the outside you are the same as the rest of us spectators.

You also state that you will not tolerate harsh terms against those who saddled you with harsh terms. I can understand that I guess. What I don't understand is why so many seem to think that all there needs to be is brutal hardcore terms and white peace. There is a balance and that balance is to match the punishment to the crime. If the punishment is too light, then the crimes will be repeated. So it is my hope that when the NPO surrenders that Polar will not interfere further in the war that they are not a part of and allow Karma to deliver terms that are appropriate and will lead to putting the NPO in a place where the rest of us can actually go about our business again.

You know Random, I agree with your first assertion but you are allowing your bitterness to filter what what I am saying. I know Polaris is different in many respects to many other alliances. I am proud of it, it was a lot of hard work by lots of people to get it to that point. The people within Polaris are a strange mix of personalities, political views, ages, sexes (male, female and unknown at the very least) and aggression levels BUT, apart from few individuals, the people in my alliance are much the same as you, much the same as Pacifica and much the same as everyone else. It is the few individuals you have issue with Random, you know who they are, you rode with them for a long time, you know. It is not Pacifica that is at fault here, if your view is to be accepted, but rather the select few who control every aspect of that alliance. The rank and file are no different to the rank and file of any other alliance (there are exceptions to the rule, I will accept that there are alliances full of strange people)

Polaris has no intention of interference, but I will stand here and hold you to your own standards, standards that I am prepared to hold myself to. I have not supported this war because I do not like the boil-over, out of control nature of the war, I do not like a lot of the people driving the war being recent refugees from Pacifica's mantle of power, and honestly I think you are all mad if you think that kicking the crap out of Pacifica is going to change anything. There are plenty of people waiting in your team to seize control and I can forsee easily that their rule will be no less pleasant for significant portions of the community.

Let it all out Random, let the hate consume you, become the DarkSide's Sith Lord you are destined to be... but spare me the crap because I know you are a nice guy

And I am saying you are wrong. It would not be hypocritical at all. Hypocritical would be to demand excessively harsh terms, such a viceroyship for years, to the NPO and all the allies that went to her defense. THAT would by hypocrisy. However something like forcing the NPO to drop their military treaties and blocs, pay some reasonable reps, and commit to a change in leadership and FA attitude would be a rough (and quickly thought up) example of reps that would be effective and removing the threat that is the NPO and not at all be hypocrisy.

If those are the terms, they seem not unlike the unfair terms that you were subjected to..... by a party that wasn't involved in the war? I know what needs to happen to the NPO, so do you, so why saddle the whole alliance with servitude to get the job done when this could be a simple exercise.... it can and you know it.

And now you're already reverting to attacks on my character while ignoring my argument entire followed by attacks on the character of all of Karma... Does goodthink still exist? If so I suggest checking it out.

If you think Karma is being hostile towards the NPO on the forum, where were you last year? The way the NPO treated Polar alone was worse. It's also pretty established that the leadership of Karma will decide the surrender terms, not the members who post on the forums. Again, a simple concept.

Seriously, this is just pathetic. 1. I am not a part of Karma. 2. Learn to deal with arguments and not simply attack people. 3. You are the reason your leaders issue gag orders. I am surprised there isn't one now, actually. and 4. Please look at my history within the alliance you claim to be your home and then state that I refuse to tolerate anyone with an opposing view. Your statement is ignorant and offensive and I hope it is not shared by many of your alliance-mates.

But please, go ahead and continue to base your entire opinion on Karma based on the posting of people who aren't in Karma alliances and members who are not in decision making positions of Karma alliances. This is clearly the best way to form an opinion on how they will act.

Angry Random much. You and I are not part of Karma, why? I am sure you have a reason as much as I do. Your opinion means a lot to a lot of people, use it wisely please. Also Hello.

[D34th]

And now you're already reverting to attacks on my character while ignoring my argument entire followed by attacks on the character of all of Karma... Does goodthink still exist? If so I suggest checking it out.

Sorry if you see it as an attack on your character but I though it was an OCC forum and the problem really exist, I disagree with something about KARMA and what you say? That I'm against them or that I'm a NPO defensor.

If you think Karma is being hostile towards the NPO on the forum, where were you last year? The way the NPO treated Polar alone was worse. It's also pretty established that the leadership of Karma will decide the surrender terms, not the members who post on the forums. Again, a simple concept.

I keep seeing this argument "NPO did bad things so I can do bad thing too while I'm not as bad as they were"

Two wrongs not make a right.

Seriously, this is just pathetic. 1. I am not a part of Karma. 2. Learn to deal with arguments and not simply attack people. 3. You are the reason your leaders issue gag orders. I am surprised there isn't one now, actually. and 4. Please look at my history within the alliance you claim to be your home and then state that I refuse to tolerate anyone with an opposing view. Your statement is ignorant and offensive and I hope it is not shared by many of your alliance-mates.

1.Yeah you aren't part of KARMA but is a big deffensor of them and I think you share their ideals. May be I'm wrong may be not.

2.I'm not attacking you, I read your arguments and was dealing with it until you start this "OMG you attacked my character"

3.Elaborate, I'm really interested in see why I'm the reason of gag orders exist.

4.I'm not talking as an NpO member here, this is an OCC forum, and what I'm seeing is that you refuse to tolerate an opposing view doesn't matter what your past history was.

But please, go ahead and continue to base your entire opinion on Karma based on the posting of people who aren't in Karma alliances and members who are not in decision making positions of Karma alliances. This is clearly the best way to form an opinion on how they will act.

As I said before I really think that are good leaders in Karma, and I hope they prove that I'm wrong.

[Margrave]

I think he just called everyone Neville Chamberlain. I'm not sure how that really makes sense but....

Perhaps he's saying we'll have peace in our time. Unfortunately, from the weak way terms have been givenout so far, that time will be twelve O'clock tomorrow.

[Vhalen]

Sorry if you see it as an attack on your character but I though it was an OCC forum and the problem really exist, I disagree with something about KARMA and what you say? That I'm against them or that I'm a NPO defensor.

He didn't mean character as in "a part being played," he meant it as in "reputation, traits, etc. that define a person." Unless I misunderstand your argument, OOC isn't relevant to that.