SpiderJerusalem Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." One of my favourite quotes of all time. And very fitting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I can´t help myself but it seems magicninja takes the thread title to literally. My advise to you would be, take a step back and read again what you posted, you may recognize some inconsistence in your thoughts. There were several replies needed to explaining the obvious to you and you are still trying deliberated to misunderstand them. However, this whole issue reminds me of Animal Farm, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Nope I've been steadfast in what I've been saying. Except I relented and I'll say taking info knowingly isn't quite as bad as sending out people to get it but it's just a notch lower not so drastically different that no one needs to worry about it. I'm trying to explain the obvious to them. They are the ones being deliberate to try to find a way to make Pacifica wrong iun this affair. So much so that they say they wouldn't care if screenies of their gov forums are circulated around CN as long as no one is asking for them. Give me a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Again, having someone give you intel gained through spying is not the same as actually spying. It's like saying all those who read TWiP are spies and on par with those who publish TWiP. TWiP is public, nobody in TWiP say "Hey I have SS from NPO forums, do you wanna see it? But you can't show it to nobody because if so, they will get us." If a friend of yours kill someone and tell it to you and you keep it in secret you will be arrested too even if you aren't a murderer. In my opinion spy or get spied info/material and keep it in secret is the same thing. Why he didn't approached NPO and said: "Hey this guys are spying on you and send me this SS"? One thing is question if he deserves ZI other is try say he didn't nothing wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindom of Goon Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 In my opinion spy or get spied info/material and keep it in secret is the same thing. Why he didn't approached NPO and said: "Hey this guys are spying on you and send me this SS"? Because its not their responsibility? They've not actively done anything aggressive, and to put it bluntly, its not their problem that someone else has. Spying on the other hand is you actively commiting acts of aggression against another party, I'm not sure how you can call them the same thing. Granted accepting intel is not exactly a nice thing to do, but as others have mentioned several times in this thread it happens all the time, so why are OV the only ones who are to be punished for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzptm Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Nobody deserves any sort of ZI over this. Not regular ZI, not PZI, not EZI. If Nueva Vida moves to defend Vanguard or VE as a result of this incident, I will gladly send my nation on to the noble cause of taking a stand against the despicable bullying of NPO and its cohorts. This is a sham, a show trial, and I refuse to countenance it with any sort of tolerance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasin Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Nope I've been steadfast in what I've been saying. Except I relented and I'll say taking info knowingly isn't quite as bad as sending out people to get it but it's just a notch lower not so drastically different that no one needs to worry about it.I'm trying to explain the obvious to them. They are the ones being deliberate to try to find a way to make Pacifica wrong iun this affair. So much so that they say they wouldn't care if screenies of their gov forums are circulated around CN as long as no one is asking for them. Give me a break. It's just you realize that a number of people in your alliance and your protectors alliance would have to be expelled and ZI'd if everyone else did the same to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Nobody deserves any sort of ZI over this. Not regular ZI, not PZI, not EZI.If Nueva Vida moves to defend Vanguard or VE as a result of this incident, I will gladly send my nation on to the noble cause of taking a stand against the despicable bullying of NPO and its cohorts. This is a sham, a show trial, and I refuse to countenance it with any sort of tolerance. You won't stand alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Because its not their responsibility? They've not actively done anything aggressive, and to put it bluntly, its not their problem that someone else has. Spying on the other hand is you actively commiting acts of aggression against another party, I'm not sure how you can call them the same thing. Granted accepting intel is not exactly a nice thing to do, but as others have mentioned several times in this thread it happens all the time, so why are OV the only ones who are to be punished for it? OV isn't being punished for it. Only one person would be. It's not as bad as active spying but not by much. Enough to not have to roll an alliance over it but bad enough to punish the person who took the info knowingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 It's just you realize that a number of people in your alliance and your protectors alliance would have to be expelled and ZI'd if everyone else did the same to you? If there's proof then so be it. I don't think anyone is exempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasin Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 If there's proof then so be it. I don't think anyone is exempt. You're missing the point, no one should be ZI'd for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 You're missing the point, no one should be ZI'd for this. Why not? Is spying the new trend? Did everyone up and decide that spying was ok within certain boundaries all of a sudden? Maybe they just up and decided to fit this bill? That's what it looks like to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col John S Mosby Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) Really?So as long as the guy doesn't give up his informant he can keep having info dropped in his lap as long as he doesn't ask for it? You're asking to be spied on if you ask me. Anyone who wanted to aggressively spy on you could just use that as his defense if you were none the wiser. Weren't you in GATO during GW3? Wars can start over having gotten unsolicited info from external spies, right? It depends on who is who, right? Like I said, spying isn't the problem, might makes right is. From what I'm seeing here and hearing elsewhere, the supposedly impending war isn't about that, so there is gonna be a lot of bloodletting for nothing unless there is a purpose besides whacking the giant. On a related note - It's all a moot point because while NPO is certainly willing to do something about it when other people do it to them, no one is willing to do something about it when NPO does it. We can sit here and complain about it until we're blue in the face but until someone steps up and does something to stop all this nonsense nothing is going to change. From what I understand, your group did the spontaneous uprising thing, and it made a statement that there are a lot of people out there who are unhappy about how things are. That was a good thing, but it ended predictably enough. For such an entrenched toxic environment to change for the better, there has to be a good understanding about what the problem is and a well thought-out plan to fix it. Those who believe that all change is for the better, think that destroying the established order is always going to be good thing because it makes way for inevitable progress. The way it usually turns out is a more organized hegemon is toppled and replaced by more ruthless types as the idealists of the revolution are swept away. Edited April 21, 2009 by Col John S Mosby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 You're missing the point, no one should be ZI'd for this. And why is that? sethb didn't just accept info unrequested. He promised to actively take steps to keep the spy's identity hidden from NPO. How does that not make him complicit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freelancer Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 It's just you realize that a number of people in your alliance and your protectors alliance would have to be expelled and ZI'd if everyone else did the same to you? I think it would be totally awesome, they can all make a new alliance, those 50 or 60 people that have been running buck shot for the last few years, I know I would enjoy the squirming. If there's proof then so be it. I don't think anyone is exempt. I do respect your stance here, however you will never see any evidence hit the public forum of what the current power structure has or will do to keep that power, it's held at the highest levels of secrecy like a shadow government. If you believe otherwise, sir you have allot to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasin Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Why not? Is spying the new trend? Did everyone up and decide that spying was ok within certain boundaries all of a sudden? Maybe they just up and decided to fit this bill? That's what it looks like to me. Please stop calling this spying. Spying is actively stealing another alliance secrets by gaining access to their boards. So no, spying is not the new trend, and accepting info has not been taboo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted April 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 And why is that?sethb didn't just accept info unrequested. He promised to actively take steps to keep the spy's identity hidden from NPO. How does that not make him complicit? He had no responsibility to help NPO find a spy. Thats why things like PIATs exist they are what would make someone obligated to inform NPO that they had a spy. Sethb just didn't inform NPO and since he did not have an obligation to why should he be ZId? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindom of Goon Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 And why is that?sethb didn't just accept info unrequested. He promised to actively take steps to keep the spy's identity hidden from NPO. How does that not make him complicit? Actively taking steps? :lol: He promised not to spread the screenshots, and he has no obligation to do otherwise. Its not his job to find NPO's leaks for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Orpheus Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 He had no responsibility to help NPO find a spy. Thats why things like PIATs exist they are what would make someone obligated to inform NPO that they had a spy. Sethb just didn't inform NPO and since he did not have an obligation to why should he be ZId? I believe he did have an obligation, since spying is one of the few taboos of our world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) I believe he did have an obligation, since spying is one of the few taboos of our world. Laughing - I see you really do believe this alternate reality that "your side" doesnt partake in such taboo things as "spying". And only do so when they need to send in a plant to see if the target is spying on them, but we dont call that spying in fairy land. Also - if we follow your reality then I expect there must be a mad rush of apologies being written as we speak, coming clean and all...right? Edited April 21, 2009 by Paradigm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 I'm going to have to side with the NPO, TPF etc. here. Accepting spied information is a horrendous crime. And they are all scum. Here here Moo-cows. ZI the lot of 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Orpheus Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Laughing - I see you really do believe this alternate reality that "your side" doesnt partake in such taboo things as "spying". And only do so when they need to send in a plant to see if the target is spying on them, but we dont call that spying in fairy land.Also - if we follow your reality then I expect there must be a mad rush of apologies being written as we speak, coming clean and all...right? So you would say that there is no difference between espionage and counter-espionage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coursca Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Laughing - I see you really do believe this alternate reality that "your side" doesnt partake in such taboo things as "spying". And only do so when they need to send in a plant to see if the target is spying on them, but we dont call that spying in fairy land.Also - if we follow your reality then I expect there must be a mad rush of apologies being written as we speak, coming clean and all...right? IRON doesn't engage in espionage. Fixed your post for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasin Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 So you would say that there is no difference between espionage and counter-espionage? Depends on what you mean by counter-espionage. Kicking a spy off of your boards? Spying on others in order to gain information on what spies they may have on you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Orpheus Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Depends on what you mean by counter-espionage. Kicking a spy off of your boards? Spying on others in order to gain information on what spies they may have on you? I think taking necessary actions to protect oneself from the threat of spying is entirely acceptable. Spying, however, and any sort of aid or assistance provided to spies, is unacceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 And the stench of hypocrisy is thick in here... Looking at a screenshot someone sends you isnt spying. It just isnt. If I either myself or through a partner *infiltrate* your alliance to get information under false pretences, that is spying. If I then go query moo and send him a link to some stuff I found doing that, I'm still spying - but Moo is not. And dont tell me he wouldnt look. If there's a chance the info could be important to his alliance (and how could he be sure there is no such chance without looking?) then he would have to look. *I* would still be the spy, not him. And if the alliance I was spying on had a PIAT or better with NPO, then Moo would need to turn me in to them - but if not he has no obligation to say anything to anyone. He would have every right to keep quiet and protect my identity simply on the gamble that, even if the screenshot today didnt turn out to be important to his alliance, the one I bring tomorrow might be. I have no doubt that's how it would all be parsed if it were Moo, not Seth, on the block here. I dont think anyone that's been around and paying attention very long here could have any doubt on that score. And a lot of people think that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? Now all that said, there are a lot of unknowns. Seth *acts* guilty. Maybe that's just because mhawk uses an interrogation style designed to get people to act guilty, maybe he's in something like the situation of the confused kid that the police intimidate a false confession from... or maybe his involvement here is a bit deeper than has been proven. It does sound like he was suspiciously chummy with the BC types. So even while saying clearly that 'accepting information' is nonsense as a charge, I'm not at all sure Seth is completely innocent here. All that taken into account, some sort of compromise must surely be possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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