Protected Nation

[Rayvon]

Actually no. it is the job of a Trium, MoFA, or any other form of leader with control over FA to seek out treaties and to discuss this with other alliances. you may disagree with the direction he wanted to head, but that is his right as a trium, and frankly its the alliances fault for putting him there in the first place if he wasn't qualified. More GGA fail in that case.

If the majority of the alliance disagrees with this action, the most that should have been done was the removal from office, which is the right of any people (I would argue even in authoritarian governments), but not threats and removal from the alliance and to be treated like a criminal.

Well spoken.

As MoFO of Ordo Verde, I've reviewed our paths and treaties from all different views. And we constantly discuss this. Some paths lead us further from some allies and closer to others, some away from all them altogether, and some just completely off the wall. This is what leadership does. They discuss all possibilities to determine what may be the best for the alliance as a whole - not for their PR, their own personal gain or anyone else's agenda.

[Bob Janova]

BnT: Degenerate was also in that chat (as shown by Ironchef's logs way back near the start of the thread). So anything that applies to Shane should also apply to him. But to give you a counterexample to your idea that someone in this position would always end up kicked: during the final signing of the UJA, I gave a strong indication that Grämlins would sign as soon as we could; if you remember the announcement, there's even a nice quote from me in there. As it turned out that wasn't a sentiment that the alliance shared. But they didn't kick me from the alliance, or from government.

I do give Valhalla considerable credit for trying to defend GGA here, though. It really is a hiding to nothing and to put yourself in the line of (verbal) fire is the act of a good ally ... even if you have a poor choice in who to be an ally to .

[Earogema]

Going on information from this thread GGA has been somewhat unstable for some time, so in an effort to stabilize the situation a GGA Triumvir namely Shaneprice took it upon himself to discuss leaving 1V not with 1V alliance leadership, nor his fellow triumvirs but Greenland Republic.

If this had happened to any other alliance this would be written off as an incredibly inept member of government making a cluster $%&@ but as it is GGA and they do have so many fans on Planet Bob everyone jumps on the GGA bandwagon. If a member of any other government did this I suspect said government member would be thrown out of government, maybe even the alliance and possibly even ZIed for being so ridiculous they make GPA's peace negotiation party look like political hawks.

But since it is GGA lets dig the knife in. I can see why VE made this thread as surely a simple IRC chat with the other GGA triumvirate members informing them that Shaneprice is now a VE member would not have sufficed, instead this circus was needed and VE appears the hero on the world stage for "saving" someone that has proven himself to be a fool. For the next logical step in VE / GGA foreign relations may I suggest Shaneprice be allowed to run for Green Senate and thirdly can we rename Shaneprice "Free Quebec"? Im sure my suggestions would fit in nicely with VE's longstanding desire and actions to create a united Green Sphere.

First- Degenerate was in the room.

Second- In those logs, there were no talks of leaving 1V. There was mention that if GGA wanted to move closer to GR and friends, they would have to relinquish old allies, or change their ways. Signing ZIPP was a suggestion. 1V was never even mentioned.

Third- That's what happens when you already have terrible PR. I have no idea how long this camel has been in pain, but his back just snapped into bone shards.

Forth- You seem to ignore the fact that Moo and DM had a hand in this. This is what we're mocking. Bilrow owns their forums. I mean, it doesn't get more obvious.

Fifth- Nice slight against VE, but VE is also treatied to GGA, and you should also note that shane has done nothing worth being attacked for.

Sixth- No, no other government would have done this. It's like Moo being removed because he wants to treaty FAN (just an example). He is the Sovereign. He has ALL rights to do with the alliance what he wants. Don't like what he's doing as a leader? Leave.

Seventh- They had to go so far as to recall ironchef to vote against him. Once again, GGA isn't allowed to make its own decisions.

[Ejayrazz]

Actually no. it is the job of a Trium, MoFA, or any other form of leader with control over FA to seek out treaties and to discuss this with other alliances. you may disagree with the direction he wanted to head, but that is his right as a trium, and frankly its the alliances fault for putting him there in the first place if he wasn't qualified. More GGA fail in that case.

If the majority of the alliance disagrees with this action, the most that should have been done was the removal from office, which is the right of any people (I would argue even in authoritarian governments), but not threats and removal from the alliance and to be treated like a criminal.

I am proud you are in the same alliance as I am. I love you. Though, this was fall on empty ears unfortunately. I responded with the same logic and never received a response. This is understandable given the situation.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[hizzy]

That doesn't make my point ridiculous, so no I'm not enlightened. Try again

If you think that we are opportunists, then it really won't matter how I present the flaws in comment, will it? You will however, at the very least, understand the basic structure of what I said, how I said it, and why I said it.

No my comment to Shaneprice was not a cheap attempt at anything. It had no hidden meanings. I meant exactly what I said; this affair with Shaneprice is just a way for you guys to take swipes at the GGA.

Also, you said you're not out to hurt GGA on these boards. What then are you doing?

Your comment to Shaneprince was that all the people who he was referring to as friends (for supporting him) are just opportunists who want to take swipes at GGA. I'll say it again; you are doing nothing but projecting your own characteristic flaws onto others. We are not supporting him in order to take shots at GGA; we are supporting him because he was cast from his home for a !@#$%* reason. Don't assume you know or comprehend why others behave the way they do. Shaneprince was wronged. Who he was wronged by does not matter to us. In this part of the world, might does not make right.

HOWEVER, he happened to be wronged by GGA, who have a history of drawing negative attention to themselves. No, I'm not out to hurt GGA... but I'll be damned if I'm not going to laugh my $@! off when one of their highest ranked members (Dephire, Chancellor at the time) publicly admits that GGA is in essence run by the NPO.

Lol. So I was saying that the GGA should fear you? I'm seriously wondering if you even read my post.

Bob Sanders said, directly, that GGA should fear us. Go back to one of his earlier posts where he claims that GGA trying to leave NPO's nest would be alliance suicide because he assumed we would all jump at the opportunity to blow GGA out of the water. This is false. We don't care.

You, indirectly, supported Bob Sanders and his statements through your comment to Shaneprince. Just as Bob Sanders tried to conjure up fear in the GGA general membership by having them believe a fairy tale story that we're all here waiting for them to fall away from the herd, you tried to undermine Shaneprince's views of who he considers as friends. Like I said, you and Bob Sanders are, through 2 different paths, pushing GGA in the same direction; fear.

[Kryievla]

Actually no. it is the job of a Trium, MoFA, or any other form of leader with control over FA to seek out treaties and to discuss this with other alliances.

Actually, no. It is the job of the trium or mofa to talk over major direction changes before approaching other alliances. I am trying to imagine *any* of these alliances that have posted here, have a government member approach someone, seeking treaties and expressing dissatisfaction with their current ones, when the rest of the gov is content with how things are.

[DJPenguin]

I agree with SoxNation personally. He hits the nail on the head. But I'm glad to see IC back, hopefully she can right the ship.

As a footnote, Vanguard comes off looking *great* here, leaders especially.

[Earogema]

Actually, no. It is the job of the trium or mofa to talk over major direction changes before approaching other alliances. I am trying to imagine *any* of these alliances that have posted here, have a government member approach someone, seeking treaties and expressing dissatisfaction with their current ones, when the rest of the gov is content with how things are.

Which, shane did with Degenerate.

[bill n ted]

Edit; really BnT? You are going to question VE's intentions for the green sphere while defending the alliance that single handedly did more damage to the sphere than anyone else.

Yes I do question it.

GGA reluctantly rescinded the Dilrow Doctrine and along came the Jungle Accords? (or whatever its called), since then GGA has been playing pretty nice on Green compared to what they had done to control the Green senate in the past, in so much as GGA dropped a long standing doctrine which was put in place to protect GGA's sovereignty - ironically enough the cause of the Dilrow doctrine was a rogue VE senator called Free Quebec.

Given the colourful history between GGA and VE and with both sides seeking to "build relations" its hard to see this thread as anything other than a bait to GGA. A simple IRC conversation with GGA leadership regarding shaneprice would have done the trick without the need for this circus; either VE government are as inept as the former GGA member they have taken into their ranks or this was a deliberate act to stir up some GGA hate.

Lets be fair, we all know any thread regarding GGA descends into a flamewar, who here honestly thinks VE didnt know that this would stoke a flame thread for GGA? I know I dont.

[TruHartBrakN]

I didn't see a gag order so forgive me for posting. That said, I'm not ghosting. I don't even really know what that term means.

[Delta1212]

You're projecting again, BnT.

Incidentally, this thread would have died 30 pages ago if Dephire hadn't made the statement on behalf of GGA. It's not like VE made him write that.

[Epiphanus]

Yes I do question it.

GGA reluctantly rescinded the Dilrow Doctrine and along came the Jungle Accords? (or whatever its called), since then GGA has been playing pretty nice on Green compared to what they had done to control the Green senate in the past, in so much as GGA dropped a long standing doctrine which was put in place to protect GGA's sovereignty - ironically enough the cause of the Dilrow doctrine was a rogue VE senator called Free Quebec.

Given the colourful history between GGA and VE and with both sides seeking to "build relations" its hard to see this thread as anything other than a bait to GGA. A simple IRC conversation with GGA leadership regarding shaneprice would have done the trick without the need for this circus; either VE government are as inept as the former GGA member they have taken into their ranks or this was a deliberate act to stir up some GGA hate.

Lets be fair, we all know any thread regarding GGA descends into a flamewar, who here honestly thinks VE didnt know that this would stoke a flame thread for GGA? I know I dont.

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.

See what I did there?

VE posted a protection notice like any other alliance would do. The VE and GGA have had nothing but amicable relations since the Dilrow Doctrine was abolished. What would VE's angle be to put a few jabs in at GGA? I'm sure VE loves sphere instability just like the rest of us...

In response to the bolded bit, Read ME BNT try all the pages and posts that occurred before a certain ex-chancellors post on page six of this thread occurred.

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Epiphanus

[Bob Janova]

Remember that Viridia (inexplicably ) have an MDP with the GGA. It is unlikely that they deliberately set up a flame thread. No Viridians have posted anything anti-GGA in here, I don't think (though I might have missed it). To be honest the GGA's hilariously bad posts to the thread are what turned it into stand-up comedy with them as the butt of the joke.

[King Srqt]

BnT I am very aware of the actions that FQ took two years ago (for those of you who aren't here is a link http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...70509&st=0) And I really fail to see how they are relevant to this issue. A two year old rogue can hardly be representative of the current incarnation of VE and any attempt to imply otherwise is an obvious and sad attempt at a smear campaign.

[Kryievla]

As MoFO of Ordo Verde, I've reviewed our paths and treaties from all different views. And we constantly discuss this. Some paths lead us further from some allies and closer to others, some away from all them altogether, and some just completely off the wall. This is what leadership does. They discuss all possibilities to determine what may be the best for the alliance as a whole - not for their PR, their own personal gain or anyone else's agenda.

I can totally get behind that. That is what we do as well, work as a team and discuss things.

I have trouble imagining one of your gov, approaching someone that the majority of you had no interest in, and trying to get a treaty rolling, or telling another alliance how unhappy they are with your current treaties. That is the bit that does not sit well with me. And that is the bit that GGA appears unhappy with.

[ochocinco]

If so, who truly rules your alliace?

The real question is who should rule their alliance.

The answer, of course, is me.

[KingSuck]

Your comment to Shaneprince was that all the people who he was referring to as friends (for supporting him) are just opportunists who want to take swipes at GGA. I'll say it again; you are doing nothing but projecting your own characteristic flaws onto others. We are not supporting him in order to take shots at GGA; we are supporting him because he was cast from his home for a !@#$%* reason. Don't assume you know or comprehend why others behave the way they do. Shaneprince was wronged. Who he was wronged by does not matter to us. In this part of the world, might does not make right.

Being friends with someone and supporting someone are not the same thing. Some people in this thread have been defending Shane for the reason he was kicked. However the vast majority are supporting him in order to take shots at the GGA, as proven by the 'lol GGA has 1 WRC' comments. Just look through the thread yourself, there are too many examples to count.

Bob Sanders said, directly, that GGA should fear us. Go back to one of his earlier posts where he claims that GGA trying to leave NPO's nest would be alliance suicide because he assumed we would all jump at the opportunity to blow GGA out of the water. This is false. We don't care.

You, indirectly, supported Bob Sanders and his statements through your comment to Shaneprince. Just as Bob Sanders tried to conjure up fear in the GGA general membership by having them believe a fairy tale story that we're all here waiting for them to fall away from the herd, you tried to undermine Shaneprince's views of who he considers as friends. Like I said, you and Bob Sanders are, through 2 different paths, pushing GGA in the same direction; fear.

How on earth did I indirectly support the idea that GGA should fear you? Because I did not jump on the lolGGA bandwagon and share the same AA as Bob my argument must be the same? Stop grasping at straws. I am not Bob Sanders, go take this nonsensical argument up with him and stop attempting to apply it to me. On the bright side, at least you read my post this time

[pezstar]

Going on information from this thread GGA has been somewhat unstable for some time, so in an effort to stabilize the situation a GGA Triumvir namely Shaneprice took it upon himself to discuss leaving 1V not with 1V alliance leadership, nor his fellow triumvirs but Greenland Republic.

If this had happened to any other alliance this would be written off as an incredibly inept member of government making a cluster $%&@ but as it is GGA and they do have so many fans on Planet Bob everyone jumps on the GGA bandwagon. If a member of any other government did this I suspect said government member would be thrown out of government, maybe even the alliance and possibly even ZIed for being so ridiculous they make GPA's peace negotiation party look like political hawks.

But since it is GGA lets dig the knife in. I can see why VE made this thread as surely a simple IRC chat with the other GGA triumvirate members informing them that Shaneprice is now a VE member would not have sufficed, instead this circus was needed and VE appears the hero on the world stage for "saving" someone that has proven himself to be a fool. For the next logical step in VE / GGA foreign relations may I suggest Shaneprice be allowed to run for Green Senate and thirdly can we rename Shaneprice "Free Quebec"? Im sure my suggestions would fit in nicely with VE's longstanding desire and actions to create a united Green Sphere.

Also for the vultures

I can grant you that a lot of the lols are happening because it's GGA. It would be hilariously sad if it was anyone, it's just that much more so in this case because GGA has been one of the lease respectable alliances out there in so many peoples eyes for so long, that to have them finally melt down in a way that was even worse than what most of us imagined... well. This is a 40 page thread. You can see for yourself how we feel about it.

As far as thrown out and ZI'd? I think not. As a member of government, if he HADN'T gone off and explored other options for his alliance once he realized the current course was failing badly, he wouldn't have been doing his job. He didn't fail by seeking out other options... he did a great thing. Clearly, the old way isn't working for GGA.

As for discussing it with GR before he discussed it with his allies, isn't that how most treaties work? I know that's how most alliances do it. They make sure all direct parties are down with it, then they go to their allies to make sure they're ok with it. I'm not sure why you think that GGA has to discuss every decision with you while it's still in the formative phase, but that thought process is a large part of why they are the laughingstock of the Cyberverse.

I can certainly see why VE made this thread. We'd have made it in STA too. The forums are a great way to let the Cyberverse know of the important goings on in your alliance. Clearly the protection of Shane is important. The related thread has received 40+ replies. The fact that another alliance was embarrassed by it does not mean it shouldn't have been posted. In addition, I am of the opinion that far too much happens behind closed doors, and the path to a more exciting and less stagnant planet begins with being more open.

Finally, I'm not sure why you linked to your treaty with GGA. Why did you feel that we needed reminded that you are allies for the 7th time? Are you trying to reiterate that you stand behind them? If so, what are you going to do to help them now, at their time of great need? Were you trying to scare people into shutting up with a thinly veiled threat, as though merely linking to a treaty with the great Valhalla is going to make people hush their mouths instantly and do as you ask out of fear? Because if so, you're no better than GGA with that whole censorship thing.

[Blacky]

Going on information from this thread GGA has been somewhat unstable for some time, so in an effort to stabilize the situation a GGA Triumvir namely Shaneprice took it upon himself to discuss leaving 1V not with 1V alliance leadership, nor his fellow triumvirs but Greenland Republic.

Allow me to divulge to you something which may not seem apparent at first glance. In order to regain autonomy and not be politically isolated, as all parties who have sought out different paths must do. you need to confront an alliance in the middle ground or on the other side for support after the transition period. That is to say you can not break the support structure in place and then afterwards find your new direction. You must first have a desired direction before moving towards it or else you will only end up face-flat on the floor.

Shaneprice was not the first person to contact Greenland Republic from GGA or vice versa. Infact there has been a history of communication between the two alliances. But as I in particular had commented internally at one time they had wronged us, and until they were serious enough about doing their own thing and making ammends time and change would need to pass first.

[Earogema]

Yes I do question it.

GGA reluctantly rescinded the Dilrow Doctrine and along came the Jungle Accords? (or whatever its called), since then GGA has been playing pretty nice on Green compared to what they had done to control the Green senate in the past, in so much as GGA dropped a long standing doctrine which was put in place to protect GGA's sovereignty - ironically enough the cause of the Dilrow doctrine was a rogue VE senator called Free Quebec.

Given the colourful history between GGA and VE and with both sides seeking to "build relations" its hard to see this thread as anything other than a bait to GGA. A simple IRC conversation with GGA leadership regarding shaneprice would have done the trick without the need for this circus; either VE government are as inept as the former GGA member they have taken into their ranks or this was a deliberate act to stir up some GGA hate.

Lets be fair, we all know any thread regarding GGA descends into a flamewar, who here honestly thinks VE didnt know that this would stoke a flame thread for GGA? I know I dont.

GGA didn't have the power to actively control all of Green, plus the fact that Dilrow was just stupid.

It's not bait, you're the only one making it out as bait. VE and GGA are treaty partners, and in fact, a VE member defended GGA very briefly in this thread. GGA members have said nothing to VE members in this thread, and vice versa.

Finally though, remember the GGA thread RIGHT BEFORE this one? I sure do. I remember, as a Vox member, an alliance who on its founding date was at war with GGA mind you (and still is) praising them for that. In fact, most praised them for it.

[Epiphanus]

BnT I am very aware of the actions that FQ took two years ago (for those of you who aren't here is a link http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...70509&st=0) And I really fail to see how they are relevant to this issue. A two year old rogue can hardly be representative of the current incarnation of VE and any attempt to imply otherwise is an obvious and sad attempt at a smear campaign.

He had to at least try though, didn't he?

[Earogema]

The real question is who should rule their alliance.

The answer, of course, is me.

I like how you keep chiming in like that

[SoxNation]

Karma.

It'll get you every time.

Much love Feanor

[pezstar]

Actually, no. It is the job of the trium or mofa to talk over major direction changes before approaching other alliances. I am trying to imagine *any* of these alliances that have posted here, have a government member approach someone, seeking treaties and expressing dissatisfaction with their current ones, when the rest of the gov is content with how things are.

Whew. I sure am glad Degenerate was in that channel, participating in the conversation.

[SoxNation]

I am proud you are in the same alliance as I am. I love you. Though, this was fall on empty ears unfortunately. I responded with the same logic and never received a response. This is understandable given the situation.

Oh I know that... CN is devoid of logic many times... Oh and so I can get credit for it back home, this is MaineGOP for those who don't know (stupid rules on the new boards)..... grrrr.