CNRP OOC Thread

[Sal Paradise]

[quote]Riots had died down for a few hours, only to restart again. This time a few thousand residents were equipped with weapons given from BH when BH was backing the FEO and other weapons ranging from legal ones (when GLP ruled the area) to occasional stolen GLP military's weapons. Almost all of them had basic military training thanks to GLP's mandatory military training program that was enacted last year. Two tanks would show up on the streets firing at the Canuckistan's military forces. The tanks were inferior version of obsolete Great Lakes States' Demolisher tanks, basically modern version of the T-34. Inferior to almost every modern tank in the world, but could be cheaply built in a typical metal workshop. [/quote]

Three problems with this.

First, I actually don't have a problem with people RPing insurgencies beyond their IG military capacity (against me that is). It's realistic to have citizens take up arms, if arms are available. The rule is good to prevent abuse though. So as long as this "they all have military training" business doesn't get out of hand and I'm dealing with tens of thousands of armed insurgents, I'll be fine.

Second, how can they have stolen GLP military weapons? They certainly can't be stealing them all now, because I confiscated everything and you'd have to RP them getting stolen from me.

Third, now I'm no military expert here. I don't get all hot and bothered over frigate tonnage, but civilians building a tank in a metal workshop in just a couple of days? That's got to be !@#$%^&*.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1284245610' post='2450249']
Three problems with this.

First, I actually don't have a problem with people RPing insurgencies beyond their IG military capacity (against me that is). It's realistic to have citizens take up arms, if arms are available. The rule is good to prevent abuse though. So as long as this "they all have military training" business doesn't get out of hand and I'm dealing with tens of thousands of armed insurgents, I'll be fine.

Second, how can they have stolen GLP military weapons? They certainly can't be stealing them all now, because I confiscated everything and you'd have to RP them getting stolen from me.

Third, now I'm no military expert here. I don't get all hot and bothered over frigate tonnage, but civilians building a tank in a metal workshop in just a couple of days? That's got to be !@#$%^&*.
[/quote]
1. Your military can make mincemeat of them. The question is how long you or I can keep on fighting before you/I get sick of it.

2. Correcting that one.

3. It doesn't take a couple of days to build a tank, it would take quite a while and I don't plan on RPing additional FEO tanks for about a week to make it fair. Even so, it would only be sporadic and a single AT missile launcher person could destroy the tanks with a frontal hit. I mentioned it would be cheaper than the more advanced tanks to be because the quality of each tank is crappy. Your tanks could blast away my tanks all day long without much casualties if I had them mass produced.

Edited September 11, 2010 by HHAYD

[Sal Paradise]

Yeah, I don't mind giving you some leeway here, but homemade tanks are both silly and impossible. I don't care if I can easily destroy them.

And you're going to have to show me where FEO had tanks in Alberta and Saskatchewan. I seem to recall you telling me at some point that there was hardly anyone from that group there.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1284247377' post='2450264']
Yeah, I don't mind giving you some leeway here, but homemade tanks are both silly and impossible. I don't care if I can easily destroy them.

And you're going to have to show me where FEO had tanks in Alberta and Saskatchewan. I seem to recall you telling me at some point that there was hardly anyone from that group there.
[/quote]
Nevermind about the tanks, removing them.

I would consider a few thousand out of 5 million to be a very small amount. The rest of the folks are simply protesting/rioting.

Edited September 11, 2010 by HHAYD

[Uberstein]

Of course you can make a tank in your garage!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Semple_tank

Never said it would be a GOOD tank but it's possible.

[Il Terra Di Agea]

Sorry if this discussion has ended, but I have a few things to say about it:

[quote name='Karl Martin' timestamp='1284004387' post='2447341']
I said this before, but IF a country explicitedly stated a policy of closed RPing [b]from the foundation of the nation[/b] and has not done anything to antagonize another country (done by PLAYER, not some fake spy roll use of making a fake move done by others), I see no reason why the player should be force to go into wars.
[/quote]
I agree to all but the bold. I think that, should people decide not to war, they should be allowed to say so so long as they are not in any active combat. Otherwise, I agree. If people don't want to do war, don't like doing war, don't have the time to do war, they should not be forced into it, they should just have to be prepared that they should not be able to invade other people, claim new land, etc. More like one of Botha's rules, "Roleplay by mutual consent."

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1284100343' post='2448662']
So your solution is to force them to do something else?

People forget that no matter how much they want to ignore it, this is still [b]CN[/b]RP. We still retain the basic functions of the nations we are tied to: the ability to declare war, [b]go into peace mode (or in this case Botha mode, with appropriate handicaps much like how staying in peace mode hurts your economy)[/b], the 25-day inactivity mark, a direct correlation between tech, improvements, and wonders, etc. People being "forced" into war have the ability to call on allies and to defend themselves. RP is not always consensual, but deal with it. You're on a community board based off of a game where most activity revolves around the war function. If you don't want to interact with the community, join a private board.
[/quote]
Alright, so why then is there still a rule in place where, if you do not want to RP a war, you just get rolled? In the past, it has seemed that Botha Mode doesn't count if someone really wants to jump in and take your land. If we're going to advocate that Botha Mode is still perfectly valid, why don't we put rules in place that make it so, rather than making it a suggestion that you don't attack the player, but if you do, it's alright?

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1284130342' post='2448840']
TBM, do you just enjoy posting for the sake of increasing your post count? If you read what I posted, you would have seen that I am not advocating that people put their RL's on the same level of RP, quite the opposite, in fact. [b]I'm advocating, for the attacker to receive the same amount of fairness that people seem to be so bleeding heart about with the defender.[/b]
[/quote]
The problem being that the attacker had control over the situation, the defender has none. If the attacker is busy with RL stuff, they have to option to not attack in the first place, the defender gets no such luck.

[Pikachurin]

Do transport helicopters and aircraft count toward our aircraft limit in CNRP?

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Pikachurin' timestamp='1284320991' post='2451287']
Do transport helicopters and aircraft count toward our aircraft limit in CNRP?
[/quote]
Nope

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1284152728' post='2449063']
I cried...so hard, this was possibly one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in my life.

Bravo, bravo...bravo.
[/quote]
[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1284152919' post='2449067']
Someone needs to get out more.
[/quote]
Someone needs to modify their sense of humor...

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1284155923' post='2449123']
I have other, far harsher means to protect my homeland than recalling troops from overseas. That being said, morale isn't a factor in CNRP, at least, I've never seen anyone RP it.
[/quote]
Conceding the point about morale...but the point about it possibly affecting the oversees war is still valid. What if you face overwhelming force? Players have had that happen to them before...

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1284179873' post='2449525']
So what if X and Y are at war, and Z and Y are war, and all authors agree that the X-Y war happens first, then the X-Y wars ends, and Y cedes the territory Z-Y are fighting on to X?
[/quote]
[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1284180098' post='2449529']
Well then it looks like we have high school algebra all over again. Ask me later when i'm less tired.[sub] Somebody save meeeeee[/sub]
[/quote]
He's talking about a paradox. Since Z-Y is later, but they no longer have the land they are fighting on (it is now in x's hands)...why are they fighting there in the first place?

It's a good question...

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1284226171' post='2449951']
I don't see why you people keep talking about how HHAYD has his railguns. He doesn't have them. Unless we're allowed to god-mode scientific breakthroughs, railguns don't work well enough until after the tech cut off.
[/quote]
The problem is to many people have them already. It was one of those things grandfathered in when we initiated the tech system.

[quote name='BaronUberstein' timestamp='1284249820' post='2450302']
Of course you can make a tank in your garage!

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Semple_tank"]http://en.wikipedia....Bob_Semple_tank[/url]

Never said it would be a GOOD tank but it's possible.
[/quote]
I lol'ed when I first read about that. Hard.

Been a little while since I first heard about that...

[Bacharth]

[quote name='Il Terra Di Agea' timestamp='1284312161' post='2451106']
Alright, so why then is there still a rule in place where, if you do not want to RP a war, you just get rolled? In the past, it has seemed that Botha Mode doesn't count if someone really wants to jump in and take your land. [b]If we're going to advocate that Botha Mode is still perfectly valid, why don't we put rules in place that make it so[/b], rather than making it a suggestion that you don't attack the player, but if you do, it's alright?
[/quote]

Because if we did, wars would not exist. See, mutual consent is fine when two people just want to war for fun, but then we lose out on two major components of CNRP: Diplomacy and IC Nation building. Right now, Diplomacy is a must. You need to have treaties, and you need to be cordial and diplomatic, or you'll get invaded.

If Botha mode is enforced, we'll get a !@#$ ton more Junio Borghese situations, where people are dicks IC and are aggressive, but they won't get invaded IC because they are botha mode. That's the reason Botha mode is not enforced, so people can't just be complete dicks IC without any reprecussions. I'm not extrapolating. That has happened, and will happen if it is enforced.

I am a strong opponent of enforced botha-mode. Botha-mode is for Botha, or other respectful players. If you're not a dick, if you just live in peace, then you won't get invaded. If you have treaties to strong people, you won't get invaded, unless a bunch of people gang up on you.

The respect thing goes both ways. Be respectful, of others out of character AND in character, and you'll be fine.

Seriously, why do we need to keep discussing this?

[Executive Minister]

Anti-ship ballistic missiles, thoughts?

To be frank, I see these 'imaginary' (ie: hold no basis in IG) weapons as a potential catalyst for the extinction of CNRP navies. If someone can arbitrarily drum up 200 ASBMs, all naval battles would be over in single posts. How would the community feel about limiting these in some way? I'd recommend putting the ASBMs in the same category as other large tactical aides and include them in the 50 IG CM limit, or treat them like Rods from God, as these rods would have rendered SDIs as useless as navies are threatened to be by the ASBM threat.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Executive Minister

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1284127300' post='2448811]Even in CN, in peacemode, there is an economic hit to prevent long absences.[/quote] Does that mean if I'm in peacemode for a year, taking economic hits, I am in CNRP peacemode? [b]*cough*[/b] sarcasm

Edited September 15, 2010 by Generalissimo

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1282938491' post='2433032']Indeed which makes arming citizens while you still have an army silly. Especially with pots and pans.[/quote]Yawoo is wrong, arming citizens is not silly.
It's possible to have your entire country constituted of armed civilians. . .
. .. just have your CNRP population correspond exactly with the military modifier.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1284574171' post='2454866']
Anti-ship ballistic missiles, thoughts?

To be frank, I see these 'imaginary' (ie: hold no basis in IG) weapons as a potential catalyst for the extinction of CNRP navies. If someone can arbitrarily drum up 200 ASBMs, all naval battles would be over in single posts. How would the community feel about limiting these in some way? I'd recommend putting the ASBMs in the same category as other large tactical aides and include them in the 50 IG CM limit, or treat them like Rods from God, as these rods would have rendered SDIs as useless as navies are threatened to be by the ASBM threat.
[/quote]

I have vigorously fought for this and I am a major proponent of limiting the use of missile spam, especially in regards to navies.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Generalissimo' timestamp='1284591068' post='2455125']
Yawoo is wrong, arming citizens is not silly.
It's possible to have your entire country constituted of armed civilians. . .
. .. just have your CNRP population correspond exactly with the military modifier.
[/quote]
Note I said while you still have an army.

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1284597500' post='2455264']
I have vigorously fought for this and I am a major proponent of limiting the use of missile spam, especially in regards to navies.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[iKrolm]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1284574171' post='2454866']
Anti-ship ballistic missiles, thoughts?

To be frank, I see these 'imaginary' (ie: hold no basis in IG) weapons as a potential catalyst for the extinction of CNRP navies. If someone can arbitrarily drum up 200 ASBMs, all naval battles would be over in single posts. How would the community feel about limiting these in some way? I'd recommend putting the ASBMs in the same category as other large tactical aides and include them in the 50 IG CM limit, or treat them like Rods from God, as these rods would have rendered SDIs as useless as navies are threatened to be by the ASBM threat.
[/quote]


You're talking about the long-range ones, right? They're slow and almost unguided. Even the largest battleships would have plenty of time to move out of the way before the missiles arrived unless they're carrying a nuclear warhead.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1284605479' post='2455408']
You're talking about the long-range ones, right? They're slow and almost unguided. Even the largest battleships would have plenty of time to move out of the way before the missiles arrived unless they're carrying a nuclear warhead.
[/quote]

What? I'm talking about ICBMs that travel at extremely fast speeds and are apparently the 'carrier-killers' everyone's been talking about and fielding.

[Sal Paradise]

Well then, I better get my anti-ship ballistic missiles RP'd before they're banned so they'll get grandfathered in alongside railguns.

[king of cochin]

Anti Ship Ballistic Missiles are real, albeit only in the first or second generation of its development, for eg: DF21 or PRC. Wiki wise defenses to it are presently not available, but there is no reason why we cannot create concepts of our own based on existing technologies to create counters to it.

A superlative multi layered CIWS system would pretty much defend against the ASBM and yes I agree that missile spam should not be permitted for them. Ballistic Missiles are very expensive and take time to build and even more expensive to maintain. You only use them for truly worthy targets like aircraft carriers, which being the ultimate capital ship has some very good defenses on it and around it.

[Executive Minister]

Personally I have my Guided Missile Cruisers field the Mid Course Defensive Missile and Terminal Defense missile that my SDI uses as components, yet my problem seems to be the air of awe and the uncounterableness (not a real word, i know) people seem to be granting these things. That, and orders for 200 of them at a time when China has built at most 100.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1284606828' post='2455447']
Personally I have my Guided Missile Cruisers field the Mid Course Defensive Missile and Terminal Defense missile that my SDI uses as components, yet my problem seems to be the air of awe and the uncounterableness (not a real word, i know) people seem to be granting these things. That, and orders for 200 of them at a time when China has built at most 100.
[/quote]

Air of awe and uncounterableness is basically just that, Air. Every weapon has a defense if you think about it. A maneuverable low trajectory ballistic missile has its advantages and disadvantages. Knowing those disadvantages we can devise defenses against it. Also I see no harm in stocking up 200 or more missiles, so long as it is just redundancy stocking. The user just needs to avoid missile spam with them.

After all despite the massive numbers of ICBMs possessed by USA and USSR during Cold War, we must realize that their purpose was not tactical, those numbers were for strategic annihilation and redundancy in face of ABM defenses. They were meant to be of one shot use, with the understanding that once used, there wont be any more need for anything else. The thousands of ICBMs kept by these nations were as the proverbial last bullet in the revolver.

For tactical purposes, the numbers of missiles launched would have been much lesser.

[iKrolm]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1284605840' post='2455419']
What? I'm talking about ICBMs that travel at extremely fast speeds and are apparently the 'carrier-killers' everyone's been talking about and fielding.
[/quote]

ICBMs travel really fast, but they also take really long paths: http://www.mda.mil/system/elements.html
1 to 5 minutes for the boost phase plus 20 minutes for midcourse gives plenty of time unless they're guided (and not ballistic missiles then ).

[king of cochin]

[quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1284610080' post='2455507']
ICBMs travel really fast, but they also take really long paths: http://www.mda.mil/system/elements.html
1 to 5 minutes for the boost phase plus 20 minutes for midcourse gives plenty of time unless they're guided (and not ballistic missiles then ).
[/quote]

Those are the true ballistic missiles. They have exoatmospheric trajectory. However the Anti Ship ballistic missiles are quasi ballistic, ie, they have a lower trajectory than true BMs with much of their flight within the atmosphere at lower speeds compared to true BMs for greater maneuverability. The lower altitude trajectory makes them tougher to detect due to reduced reentry heat (i think), It also makes them easier to interdict by ABM missiles which have a greater latitude for error.

[The FSM]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1284613125' post='2455548']
Those are the true ballistic missiles. They have exoatmospheric trajectory. However the Anti Ship ballistic missiles are quasi ballistic, ie, they have a lower trajectory than true BMs with much of their flight within the atmosphere at lower speeds compared to true BMs for greater maneuverability. The lower altitude trajectory makes them tougher to detect due to reduced reentry heat (i think), It also makes them easier to interdict by ABM missiles which have a greater latitude for error.
[/quote]

Are we talking about standard 500km AShM or some newfangled weapon you darn kids have come up with.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='The Flying Scotsman' timestamp='1284615990' post='2455589']
Are we talking about standard 500km AShM or some newfangled weapon you darn kids have come up with.
[/quote]

No, this is not the standard AShM which are effectively low flying cruise missiles, albeit faster. This is Anti ship Ballistic Missiles like the DF21 variants the PRC is fielding, which follow a quasi ballistic flight trajectory.