NEW NATION strength calculations

[uaciaut]

20 nukes is four times powerful than 10 eh?

2 + 2 = 5?

Actually YES. YES it is. By giving nations already with nukes an advantage as wide as this we have created, it has become more than significantly harder to reach the top 5%. What are the infrastructure requirements from now and prior to the update? A whole lot different, I can assure you of that.

Yes, 20 nukes is 4 times as powerful as 10, because you run out of 10 way faster, especially with the spy system and the SDI wonder implemented.

And no, no it isn't. Nations with nukes get a NS advantage because nukes should have a say on the strength of a nation and a strong one, whereas soldiers shouldn't because the number of soldiers you can buy is dependent on your infra actually, which gives you a NS boost.

And no, the system wasn't very balanced? Why you may ask? Well let's see, with the 3bg combo an infra point while fully militarized was worth almost 4.7 NS, that's almost as much as 1 tech point, and there's a big problem with that, it's something that should have been fixed right after tech was lowered from 20 NS to 5 NS because it had a huge affect on the system. Because militarizing meant peanuts when most people were getting into nuke range while relying only on tech and purposely not buying infra so they make sure they lower damage received by themselves in a nuke war.

And again read Syzy's maths, because having nukes slows your growth a lot and nations can catch up if they plan a little ahead rather easily.

[Terra Extraneus]

Only thing I would have changed was to notify people that there was going to be a change

[Blacky]

Yes, 20 nukes is 4 times as powerful as 10, because you run out of 10 way faster, especially with the spy system and the SDI wonder implemented.

Read my reply to Syz.

And no, no it isn't. Nations with nukes get a NS advantage because nukes should have a say on the strength of a nation and a strong one, whereas soldiers shouldn't because the number of soldiers you can buy is dependent on your infra actually, which gives you a NS boost.

I agree. But if you say that nukes should have a say on the strength of a nation, then strenth should not have a say on nukes. You can't have it both ways, as it creates an instability. Where inorder to reach the 5% threshold, a nation must not only match the other nations (ie; catch up), but they now also have an extra 3,000 or so NS to overtake aswell. That coupled with the former makes it ever more difficult to attain nukes.

And again read Syzy's maths, because having nukes slows your growth a lot and nations can catch up if they plan a little ahead rather easily.

Right in hundreds of days they would have chased the shadow of a nation ahead of them for long enough to pick up a few nukes. If they're not involved in a nuclear war before then ofcourse. In which case they will be annihilated.

[sayton]

(DAC)Syzygy

all i can say is one thing..

i love you... lol

ok im not gay but honestly.. you take soo much time out of your own busy life to explain to us the concepts of the game and although ppl dont seem to understand. i appreciate it. Thank you :-D

MUAHAHAHAH

[Decomposition]

I think that a lot of the frustration of small-medium size nations not being able to buy nukes will be addressed once the ritual summer holiday war season starts which may reduce the strength of some of the top nations. The web of alliances may make this seem unlikely but 3 months of summer holidays is a lot of time for bored players to dream up some CBs

I think the changes are good for the game - when the rules change you need to adapt your strategy

[ArgonV]

That's basically all I'm hearing. 'This update sucks because I now I have to put more effort in to get nukes'

So the object of this game is to get nukes ASAP? Then I think I'm playing it wrong. I'm only doing this for about 60 days, but getting nukes has never been my objective.

[Saber]

Only thing I would have changed was to notify people that there was going to be a change

Only thing that was changed it that people who did not abuse the system, who did not boost their nations by artificially buying tanks/soldiers, are no longer discriminated and infact forced to buy them to stay above people who did it.

I did not have that problem for a long time, but I was at 2%, when realistically, looking at my infra and tech I am lot higher (right now 1.3%).

To those who are crying because they can't abuse the system. Booah.

[Saber]

1. The NS requirement for becoming nuclear has barely dropped.

2. It now takes much longer to reach that requirement, and the NS requirement will only become higher.

No matter how you look at it, it is certainly much harder to get nuclear weapons now than it was before the update. It takes longer.

At my size, I was able to get up to 4.4% before this update. Now I cap out at 5.1%. I need to grow more before I am back in the top 5% and the same goes for all nations below me.

Not true, you need to grow more because you ABUSED the system. Those who were at 5.1%, and did not abuse the system before this change now sit safely inside 5%. You all are crying because you cannot abuse the system anymore.

[Blacky]

Not true, you need to grow more because you ABUSED the system. Those who were at 5.1%, and did not abuse the system before this change now sit safely inside 5%. You all are crying because you cannot abuse the system anymore.

Saber. Did you miss what I've said many times already? roughly 5000 nations have gained an average of 2,000 NS.

Many of those nations themselves abused this to get in reach of the NS required, and now they contribute to making it ever more difficult. Basically what has happened is those nations have been solidified, and infact not only have they gotten away with their "abuse" of the system, but they are in a stronger position because of it.

You obviously do not understand what it is exactly that has happened though. (Look up to the two nation links I posted. One nation who is barely at the 5% range because of his 20 nukes, and another who was doing it fairly now is way behind because he only has 2 nukes.)

If you do not see something wrong in that design then you're too near-sighted to be debating these changes.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Blacky

[Meer Republic]

What has in effect happened is a permanent inequality. A line was drawn that says "anyone that became nuclear before this point will have a major lead", and that's what has happened. The increase in NS of nukes (1,400 or so nations increased 3,000 NS, and another 5,000 or so increased by around 2,000 NS.)

Blacky I see your nation is around 200 days old, assuming you play the game at the same level of "skill" should your nation be equal to one who has played for 400 days? A line was drawn that said "anyone that signs up after this point will be playing catch up" the day the game was launched.

This change is not so different.

As it is you should be glad that admin has put in other methods for you to gain nuclear arms should you choose to without getting into the top 5%, which theoretically should be impossible for anyone other than the first 5% of people who signed up to the game to get into (the fact that this isn't the case just highlights how wrong you are). If you're too lazy/impatient/stubborn to choose to use the feature that has been made available to you that's your problem.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Meercats

[Blacky]

Blacky I see your nation is around 200 days old, assuming you play the game at the same level of "skill" should your nation be equal to one who has played for 400 days? A line was drawn that said "anyone that signs up after this point will be playing catch up" the day the game was launched.

This change is not so different.

As it is you should be glad that admin has put in other methods for you to gain nuclear arms should you choose to without getting into the top 5%, which theoretically should be impossible for anyone other than the first 5% of people who signed up to the game to get into (the fact that this isn't the case just highlights how wrong you are). If you're too lazy/impatient/stubborn to choose to use the feature that has been made available to you that's your problem.

You still don't get it do you?

There are only two uses for Nation Strength that I can think of right now. 1) Is the war system. 2) Becoming nuclear.

Now with this change, Nation Strength is needed to become nuclear, and once you've become nuclear there is a large bonus in NS. Leaving anyone else who wants to become nuclear not only having to catch up, but having to overtake you, by a large enough margin to overcome the 4,000 NS advantage.

So it's not a matter of merely catching up anymore. That's the problem. Moreso, nations who got into the range by abusing the old system are now awarded, whilst many nations who had attempted other routes (reaching top 5% by Infra, Land and Tech) have been punished.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Blacky

[Viluin]

Not true, you need to grow more because you ABUSED the system. Those who were at 5.1%, and did not abuse the system before this change now sit safely inside 5%. You all are crying because you cannot abuse the system anymore.

Whether or not it could be considered "abusing" is a different debate. Making it impossible to "abuse" the system and then giving nuclear nations a large NS boost is just too much. Only one of these changes was needed, not both. It now takes forever for nations in the 8-10% range to become nuclear capable, and they can pretty much forget all about it if they send out a lot of aid to their alliance. I don't think this is a good thing. Newer nations should be strengthened, not old ones. It doesn't really affect me because I already have 20 nukes, but I'd hate to see CN's playerbase decline further.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Viluin

[Meer Republic]

You still don't get it do you?

There are only two uses for Nation Strength that I can think of right now. 1) Is the war system. 2) Becoming nuclear.

Now with this change, Nation Strength is needed to become nuclear, and once you've become nuclear there is a large bonus in NS. Leaving anyone else who wants to become nuclear not only having to catch up, but having to overtake you, by a large enough margin to overcome the 4,000 NS advantage.

So it's not a matter of merely catching up anymore. That's the problem. Moreso, nations who got into the range by abusing the old system are now awarded, whilst many nations who had attempted other routes (reaching top 5% by Infra, Land and Tech) have been punished.

But you don't need NS to become nuclear, sure it's one way of doing it but it's by no means exclusive.

[TheDave]

How much were nukes in the old system? 20ns? They could wipe out 15k ns EASY.

'if it aint broke don't fix it'

Well this was VERY broke and has been fixed. Why should the system remain broke to remain 'fair'

Under the old 'fair' system I could delare on a 23K ns (militarised nation and then militarise myself to 64k. Militarily superior, techinelogically superiror and exconomically superior on a grand scale. Thats how broke the system was.

Don't think the nukes should be scaled like that? Got any idea how weak you are when a nation can keep you in economic anarchy for a month for just firing off 6 nukes? one or two nukes is kids play to escape from. The more nukes you have the more powerful you are on a grand scale.

[LegendKiller]

I think it would've been better if all the military stuff wasn't changed as drastically, but the nuke NS effect definitely needed to go up.

[LOLtex]

You still don't get it do you?

There are only two uses for Nation Strength that I can think of right now. 1) Is the war system. 2) Becoming nuclear.

Now with this change, Nation Strength is needed to become nuclear, and once you've become nuclear there is a large bonus in NS. Leaving anyone else who wants to become nuclear not only having to catch up, but having to overtake you, by a large enough margin to overcome the 4,000 NS advantage.

So it's not a matter of merely catching up anymore. That's the problem. Moreso, nations who got into the range by abusing the old system are now awarded, whilst many nations who had attempted other routes (reaching top 5% by Infra, Land and Tech) have been punished.

You have it backwards, don't tell me that "I don't understand." I'm 100% sure I understand the game mechanics more completely than you, else we would not be having this discussion. I've been hovering around 5% - 6% for past several months. I always kept 30% soldiers, 60 planes, and 20 nukes. I could watch nations that had several thousand less infrastructure than I pass me up in game percentage and acquire nukes. They're not half as strong as I am, even with my 30% soldiers. But somehow they pass me in Nation Strength (an unreliable factor in a nation's actual strength at the time) and purchase nukes. In four to six clicks, I could boost my NS by eight thousand and boost myself up to about 1%, from 5 - 6%. How is that fair to me, and to those I passed up so easily? Why should I force my nation to spend more on military to inflate my own NS, just to keep up with much weaker nations than myself? With the change, I'm now resting comfortably at 3.5% with peacetime soldier count (now at 60%), a nice average of before.

Yes, nukes might be harder to acquire now because you can't inflate your own NS. Deal with it. Secure tech deals and donations, purchase wonders on time, and purchase infrastructure. This will take time, the same exact time it took all the other nations to do so. The effort you put into your nation directly correlates to what you will get out of it. If you don't want to wait, purchase the Manhatten Project wonder. That's why it's there. You can't have your cake and eat it too all the time.

[Azaghul]

While the change does make it somewhat harder to get into the top 5%, it's not as hard as you make it out to be Blacky. You don't even have to wait to buy it in infra, but just do full slot tech deals for two months. Using 5 or 6 slots, you can import 500-600 tech, 2500-3000 NS, a month through tech deals, at a cost of only 15-18 million. In two months you've gotten significantly more NS than what full nukes provides. You might say that nuclear nations will have incoming tech deals as well, but I've found that most don't, or only have 1-3 slots worth.

[sayton]

While the change does make it somewhat harder to get into the top 5%, it's not as hard as you make it out to be Blacky. You don't even have to wait to buy it in infra, but just do full slot tech deals for two months. Using 5 or 6 slots, you can import 500-600 tech, 2500-3000 NS, a month through tech deals, at a cost of only 15-18 million. In two months you've gotten significantly more NS than what full nukes provides. You might say that nuclear nations will have incoming tech deals as well, but I've found that most don't, or only have 1-3 slots worth.

i think that fact is wrong. :-D no offense i think most nations who WANT to do tech deals.. WILL do tech deals. no matter if they have nukes or not.. lol

[SlayerX46]

While I'm definitely in favor of the change I'd say that tanks should be worth more than soldiers seeing as they have a higher battle strength. If the whole point is to make more important things worth more, this doesn't really help much. Tanks being worth the same, or even less than soldiers just doesn't seem right.

[Syzygy]

he assumes hat ALL nations before him are running at 100% efficiency, means: perfect trades, LC switching, fullaidslots with incoming tech and so on. Else his construction would not work .

And besides this, I ask myself where he gets the number of "5,000 nations got +2,000NS" from. There are only ~1,800nuclear nations in the whole game which hold 10 or more nukes. And only above 10nukes you notice *any* difference *at all*. And from these 1,800 a damn lot are not even within the top5%, they have bought their nukes LONG before and dropped out of the 5% range since then, some hundreds used MPs.

And against this I could hold that the overall NS of the game gone down, so for 28,000 other nations the nuke barrier just gone down by 3,300 NS

There is really nothing to complain about.

[Viluin]

While the change does make it somewhat harder to get into the top 5%, it's not as hard as you make it out to be Blacky. You don't even have to wait to buy it in infra, but just do full slot tech deals for two months. Using 5 or 6 slots, you can import 500-600 tech, 2500-3000 NS, a month through tech deals, at a cost of only 15-18 million. In two months you've gotten significantly more NS than what full nukes provides. You might say that nuclear nations will have incoming tech deals as well, but I've found that most don't, or only have 1-3 slots worth.

Not everyone can afford to use their aid slots exclusively for tech/donation deals.

And besides this, I ask myself where he gets the number of "5,000 nations got +2,000NS" from. There are only ~1,800nuclear nations in the whole game which hold 10 or more nukes. And only above 10nukes you notice *any* difference *at all*. And from these 1,800 a damn lot are not even within the top5%, they have bought their nukes LONG before and dropped out of the 5% range since then, some hundreds used MPs.

That is incorrect. A nation with 10 nukes now gets 1k NS from them, when they would have only gotten 500NS before this update. Any nation with 6 or more nukes receives more NS per nuke now than it did before.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Viluin

[TheDave]

I have no nukes and I move up the ranks despite losing nation stregnth. I have much less tech than I should with almost 10k infra... It really isnt that hard.

[Syzygy]

Not everyone can afford to use their aid slots exclusively for tech/donation deals.

That is incorrect. A nation with 10 nukes now gets 1k NS from them, when they would have only gotten 500NS before this update. Any nation with 6 or more nukes receives more NS per nuke now than it did before.

you wanna argue about 100-500NS when the nations in question are ~35-37,000NS strong? Really? Come on. Stay on the ground please. You can catch up that 500 NS by just importing 100tech.

[Lord Emares]

Saber. Did you miss what I've said many times already? roughly 5000 nations have gained an average of 2,000 NS.

Many of those nations themselves abused this to get in reach of the NS required, and now they contribute to making it ever more difficult. Basically what has happened is those nations have been solidified, and infact not only have they gotten away with their "abuse" of the system, but they are in a stronger position because of it.

You obviously do not understand what it is exactly that has happened though. (Look up to the two nation links I posted. One nation who is barely at the 5% range because of his 20 nukes, and another who was doing it fairly now is way behind because he only has 2 nukes.)

If you do not see something wrong in that design then you're too near-sighted to be debating these changes.

gotta ask this.

How much NS did those nuclear nations lose due to the impact on their inflated military?

Did they lose more than they gained with the change to nukes?

Old NS due to tanks, military and nukes: Tanks Deployed * .75 + Tanks Defending * 1 + Actual Military * .10 +Nuclear Purchased * 50

New NS due to tanks, military and nukes: Tanks Deployed * .15 + Tanks Defending * .20 + Actual Military * .02 + ((Nuclear Purchased^2)*10

Nation with standing army of 10,000 soldiers, 1000 tanks and 0 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 1000 + 1000 + 0 = 2000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 200 + 200 + 0 = 400

Total Loss: 1600 NS

Nation with standing army of 20,000 soldiers, 2000 tanks and 0 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 2000 + 2000 + 0 = 4000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 400 + 400 + 0 = 800

Total Loss: 3200 NS

Nation with standing army of 30,000 soldiers, 3000 tanks and 0 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 3000 + 3000 + 0 = 6000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 600 + 600 + 0 = 1200

Total Loss: 4800 NS

Nation with standing army of 50,000 soldiers, 5000 tanks and 20 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 5000 + 5000 + 1000 = 11000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 1000 + 1000 + 4000 = 6000

Total Loss: 5000 NS

Nation with standing army of 100,000 soldiers, 10,000 tanks and 25 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 10000 + 10000 + 1250 = 21250

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 2000 + 2000 + 6400 = 10400

Total Loss: 10850 NS

So the bigger nations actually lost more NS than the smaller nations, thus lowering the 5% barrier and making it easier for smaller nations to get into the top 5%

[Hime Themis]

Gentle Persons

I am somewhat amused to see the terms "abused the system" gratuitously thrown about. I am one who has used the system to the fullest extent of my knowledge. I do not keep my military at the bare minimum as would be most economically efficient , I do not keep my military sort of ready. I keep a full military complement because there is more to the game than economics or NS. My military will remain at its premium value that avoids the majority of Happiness penalties but at the highest level because apparently unlike some I have no prescience as to the time someone may choose to attack me. I used the NS bonus to buy nukes as soon as possible, since I was willing to pay the economic price of maximum vigilance by having at all times maximum military I have no guilt. Would I have preferred maintaining a higher NS for paying the economic price for maintaining a higher military yes. I believe that was more realistic. The world changed just as it does in RL. Happened when I had concentrated on building up tech and that changed, now it happened to military. I would have liked that what I planned met no changes ,no interruptions no flys in the ointment but to quote a great line form a movie. "You're Marines now. You adapt. You overcome. You improvise. Let's move. "

The rules have changed so we change with them. The abuse of a bug is one thing using the system that is set out for us is simply prudent. GPA and Gramlins did it their way they take the good with the bad and respect to them for doing so. Remember the first time somebody showed you "castling' or "en Passant" in Chess boy did that rot your socks but you learned and the game changed and got better for you.

Lets stay friendly and enjoy the Spice that admin adds to the stew. Who wants the same breakfast everyday?

Respectfully

Page Hime Themis

Edited April 16, 2008 by Hime Themis