NEW NATION strength calculations

[Viluin]

you wanna argue about 100-500NS when the nations in question are ~35-37,000NS strong?

Yes. Wanna fight about it?

You can catch up that 500 NS by just importing 100tech.

And the nation you're trying to catch up to can import 100 tech just as easily.

gotta ask this.

How much NS did those nuclear nations lose due to the impact on their inflated military?

Did they lose more than they gained with the change to nukes?

Old NS due to tanks, military and nukes: Tanks Deployed * .75 + Tanks Defending * 1 + Actual Military * .10 +Nuclear Purchased * 50

New NS due to tanks, military and nukes: Tanks Deployed * .15 + Tanks Defending * .20 + Actual Military * .02 + ((Nuclear Purchased^2)*10

Nation with standing army of 10,000 soldiers, 1000 tanks and 0 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 1000 + 1000 + 0 = 2000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 200 + 200 + 0 = 400

Total Loss: 1600 NS

Nation with standing army of 20,000 soldiers, 2000 tanks and 0 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 2000 + 2000 + 0 = 4000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 400 + 400 + 0 = 800

Total Loss: 3200 NS

Nation with standing army of 30,000 soldiers, 3000 tanks and 0 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 3000 + 3000 + 0 = 6000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 600 + 600 + 0 = 1200

Total Loss: 4800 NS

Nation with standing army of 50,000 soldiers, 5000 tanks and 20 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 5000 + 5000 + 1000 = 11000

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 1000 + 1000 + 4000 = 6000

Total Loss: 5000 NS

Nation with standing army of 100,000 soldiers, 10,000 tanks and 25 nukes

Old NS of military aspects: 0 + 10000 + 10000 + 1250 = 21250

New NS of military aspects: 0 + 2000 + 2000 + 6400 = 10400

Total Loss: 10850 NS

So the bigger nations actually lost more NS than the smaller nations, thus lowering the 5% barrier and making it easier for smaller nations to get into the top 5%

With a peacetime army I actually gained NS because of the boost I got from my nukes. About 2-3k. At the same time, all non-nuclear nations lost NS with no exceptions.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Viluin

[Lord Emares]

aye but the nations who were in the top 5% only due to the fact that they maxed out their militaries took quite a significant drop depending on how big they are

[Viluin]

aye but the nations who were in the top 5% only due to the fact that they maxed out their militaries took quite a significant drop depending on how big they are

They took a huge drop, while some nuclear nations even got a boost. That's 2 changes made to this game that are beneficial to larger nations and quite the opposite to smaller ones. I still think only 1 of them was necessary, 2 is just throwing salt in the wound.

[sayton]

what viluin says is correct. im sorry syzygy.. You know i always agree with you but not this time.. at my NS even at 96000 NS.. you need to SPAM TECH DEALS... if you do not. .you will NEVER catch up to nations above you..

thats a fact..

[enderland]

I'm rather surprised that no one has pointed out none of the following:

--A single nuke can destroy 80,000 soldiers and a handful of tanks, so should every nuke have been worth the equivalent amount of NS as that manys soldiers?

--Nukes were meant to be difficult to get (hence a 5% restriction) and being able to "jump to nuclear" to buy nukes, then drop back down out of the range clearly was against that idea

--The game is still "Beta" which means Admin could just delete the entire thing tomorrow for all intents and purposes

--Nuclear prolification is not exactly the best thing for the game

[myruler]

Live with it. Nation Strength's have been lowered giving you a larger range of nations you can attack. It is still very possible to get into the top 5%. You guys make it seem like it is impossible. NO one will have 20 nukes as soon as they pass the barrier. The first day they buy a nuke, they only get 10 NS. Pass them before they get more.

[Viluin]

Live with it. Nation Strength's have been lowered giving you a larger range of nations you can attack. It is still very possible to get into the top 5%. You guys make it seem like it is impossible. NO one will have 20 nukes as soon as they pass the barrier. The first day they buy a nuke, they only get 10 NS. Pass them before they get more.

Relatively speaking, the NS you gain from nukes is much cheaper than what you gain from infra. A nation will only be harder to pass when it's busy purchasing nukes, assuming it's growing via infra/tech purchases at the same time.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Viluin

[myruler]

Relatively speaking, the NS you gain from nukes is much cheaper than what you gain from infra. A nation will only be harder to pass when it's busy purchasing nukes, assuming it's growing via infra/tech purchases at the same time.

Many nations don't even buy nukes. I'm in the top 1% and don't have nukes. Somehow I moved up in the rankings with this change without any nukes.

[Viluin]

Many nations don't even buy nukes. I'm in the top 1% and don't have nukes. Somehow I moved up in the rankings with this change without any nukes.

Such nations are pretty much impossible to pass if they are doing tech deals. Tech deals take a much smaller chunk out of your income than they do out of a 5k infra nation's income. On top of that, you don't lose any money from carrying nukes.

EDIT: I'm not sure what my point was, but uhh.. yeah.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Viluin

[enderland]

On top of that, you don't lose any money from carrying nukes.

lol?

[Zangmonkey]

Such nations are pretty much impossible to pass if they are doing tech deals. Tech deals take a much smaller chunk out of your income than they do out of a 5k infra nation's income. On top of that, you don't lose any money from carrying nukes.

EDIT: I'm not sure what my point was, but uhh.. yeah.

This is the case for a curved function for infra cost, not just jumps

[Viluin]

lol?

There are 2 ways to interpret that sentence, so it might have been better if I rephrased it. He does not have nukes, so he does not have to pay extra bills, keep a uranium trade etc.

This is the case for a curved function for infra cost, not just jumps

Could you explain that?

[Steelrat]

I´m amazed how many guys playing CN for so long and still have no clue about the game mechanics. So to say i´m glad you play the game, every game needs you but what really strikes me is the constant bubbling about NO you are wrong and i´m right with no proof of any math while the others proof their point with correct math. If you don´t know the math shut up and stop complaining.

[Viluin]

I´m amazed how many guys playing CN for so long and still have no clue about the game mechanics. So to say i´m glad you play the game, every game needs you but what really strikes me is the constant bubbling about NO you are wrong and i´m right with no proof of any math while the others proof their point with correct math. If you don´t know the math shut up and stop complaining.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that it is now harder to become nuclear capable. In fact, I thought that's what everyone agreed on so I'm not sure what kind of math you're asking for. All I've been saying is that I believe it is now too hard compared to the old system.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Viluin

[Steelrat]

It doesn't take a genius to realize that it is now harder to become nuclear capable. In fact, I thought that's what everyone agreed on so I'm not sure what kind of math you're asking for. All I've been saying is that I believe it is now too hard compared to the old system.

We seem to live in parallel universe, in my universe it´s not that case.

[Viluin]

We seem to live in parallel universe, in my universe it´s not that case.

Why not? Nations now have to grow all the way to 37K NS without military inflation to become nuclear capable. Before this update, ~32k NS before buying a military would suffice. To me, that sounds like it's harder.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Viluin

[sayton]

Alden, you pointed out that a nuke dstroys 80,000 soldiers?? not technically.. what if the nation has 150,000 soldiers.. or 15,000 soldiers.. then the nuke takes out that many soldiers.. therefore nukes cannot be based off a soldiers count.. sorry

[Gebiv]

I personally adore this change. I went down 3k NS, so now I'm not at the threat of being attacked by a super-strong nation.

[Zangmonkey]

Why not? Nations now have to grow all the way to 37K NS without military inflation to become nuclear capable. Before this update, ~32k NS before buying a military would suffice. To me, that sounds like it's harder.

The game mechanics are designed such that smaller nations can grow faster than larger nations. This is simply a fact in the design.

A simple proof would be a comparison of the efficiency of the top 5% versus the top 10-6%

[Blacky]

I´m amazed how many guys playing CN for so long and still have no clue about the game mechanics. So to say i´m glad you play the game, every game needs you but what really strikes me is the constant bubbling about NO you are wrong and i´m right with no proof of any math while the others proof their point with correct math. If you don´t know the math shut up and stop complaining.

If you believe what you're saying I feel sorry for you. I hope you are taking a position because it benefits you, honestly, that's what I hope. Because you're so wrong right now.

I gave you not only math but a simple dose of logic. In return all I got was something verging insanity by many different people. If the only change, was a change in the amount of nation strength added by tanks and soldiers, then it would be unfortunate for non-nuclear nations, but perfectly understandable. It would have changed to be a better and more balanced system.

But what has happened is something much worse. Many, many nations have gained upto 3,000 nation strength just due to the fact that they had 20 nukes. (I believe it was around 1200-1400 nations who have done so.)

Now you see, that two equal nations in every way, except for the fact that one has 20 nukes and the other doesn't, are in a complete different standing. If a war broke out between the two, the nation with the nukes can continue buying nukes (with his 4,000 NS bonus) whereas the other who did not buy nukes before the update, or have any yet can not. That nation would be forced to take the nukes and not be able to purchase them.

Infact the system has become one, where in order to become nuclear not only do you have to match the other nations growth with nukes. You must now also surpass their nation strength by several thousand points. (upto 6,250)

So you see this system makes it ever more difficult for new nations to get in range. Not only because the nations already in range are higher. But also because now their NS is inflated. It's simple logic really. The way the system is designed it would take several hundred days or severe economic loss to reach the nuclear stage.

Worst Update Ever

[Republic of Darkness]

Considering using your nukes could well remove you from the top 5% it is a bit much in my opinion.

Additionally if a nation isn't going to be recognized for it's military might, then what would be be recognized for. There are countries much smaller that can deal damage with their 5000 tanks and 30000 soldiers with much more lethality than someone whose just got nukes. Which takes skill to use? That's where the NS should be decided.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Dark Omen

[JoshuaR]

lol really.

please get into your head that owning nukes costs you a LOT more then the upkeep.

you lose:

- 290k nuke upkeep

- $7.5 gross income from the Uranium

- 1 happiness

- 3 environement (additional 1.2happiness), which you either accept or have to counter with borderwalls (-2% pop penalty each)

if you switch out uranium you lose:

- 3% infra upkeep

- 580k nuke upkeep

- 1 hapiness

- 2 environment (additional 0.8hapiness), which you either accept or have to counter with borderwalls (-2 pop penalty each)

But gain another resource you currently not have (for example gems or sugar), but usually Uranium is the better choice.

So: the larger your nation is, the MORE you pay for being nuclear armed. The happiness and income loss DIRECTLY affects the citizen gross income and the more citizens you have, the more you lose. Its just logical.

At this point I simply stop arguing with you, because the problem you describe does simply not exist. The values for tech, land, infra all have NOT changed. So its *by definition* right now easier to reach 36k with own growth, then it was to reach 39.5k with own growth before.

In addition:

20 nukes brought 1,000 NS before the update. Right now you need 10 nukes for that.

There are currently:

1552 spots in the top5%

146 non-nuclear nations within the top5%.

160 top5% nations have 10nukes or less, so they have no "boost" compared to before the update at all.

Together that alone are 300 nations you can "overcome" exactly as fast as before the update. Thats around 20% of the whole nuclear range.

Only 79 of 1552 top5% nations have 25nukes to receive the full "boost".

Sorry but your claims are *totally* wrong.

Gah, and if I get nukes I have to give up 3BG and 5BG and settle on 8... Or take the double nuke cost and no uranium cost...

Yes, nuclear weapons will drastically affect my economy. When I buy them (because my fragile ego cannot stand that I, with all my infrastructure, must remain subordinate to those with pitifully small nations and big guns) my growth will slow down.

Why not? Nations now have to grow all the way to 37K NS without military inflation to become nuclear capable. Before this update, ~32k NS before buying a military would suffice. To me, that sounds like it's harder.

It's just an artificial number. Once you get nukes and get top 5%, you're not immediately falling out of it (unless you used the military trick to get there in the first place). So the number going up is only because you have nukes. The same people will be outside of the top 5% as before. Yes it's harder to pass the guys with nukes, but it was harder to pass those guys with nukes and a hell of a lot of military. I prefer that it be harder to pass nukes. (and eventually those suckers get fired... and you can bet if they're fired, then the infra will be falling too as other nations fire back...)

[Viluin]

The game mechanics are designed such that smaller nations can grow faster than larger nations. This is simply a fact in the design.

A simple proof would be a comparison of the efficiency of the top 5% versus the top 10-6%

Yes, but it would quite literally take over a year for me just to catch up to an 8k+ nation. Actually, since I cannot afford to do 6 tech deals, I'll probably never catch up.

And that still doesn't change the fact that it is now harder to get nukes.

It's just an artificial number. Once you get nukes and get top 5%, you're not immediately falling out of it (unless you used the military trick to get there in the first place). So the number going up is only because you have nukes. The same people will be outside of the top 5% as before. Yes it's harder to pass the guys with nukes, but it was harder to pass those guys with nukes and a hell of a lot of military. I prefer that it be harder to pass nukes. (and eventually those suckers get fired... and you can bet if they're fired, then the infra will be falling too as other nations fire back...)

You need to grow a lot more to get into the top 5% -> It's harder. It wasn't nearly as hard before the update.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Viluin

[Starcraftmazter]

Not true, you need to grow more because you ABUSED the system. Those who were at 5.1%, and did not abuse the system before this change now sit safely inside 5%. You all are crying because you cannot abuse the system anymore.

"Abusing" the system is a purely arbitrary definition, and is completely meaningless.

[TheDave]

But what has happened is something much worse. Many, many nations have gained upto 3,000 nation strength just due to the fact that they had 20 nukes. (I believe it was around 1200-1400 nations who have done so.)

Now you see, that two equal nations in every way, except for the fact that one has 20 nukes and the other doesn't, are in a complete different standing. If a war broke out between the two, the nation with the nukes can continue buying nukes (with his 4,000 NS bonus) whereas the other who did not buy nukes before the update, or have any yet can not. That nation would be forced to take the nukes and not be able to purchase them.

I doubt that it was that many.

Also, I've been hit by three nukes and I am telling you straight, two nations with equal infra, tech, land, soldiers, planes, cm's, tanks, wonders, improvements and resources and a million miles from being equal if one has 20 nukes and the other has none. The system was broke and Nukes were undervalued. Its been fixed.

If the other nation wanted nukes so bad it should have bought them when it could, otherwise the claim they have been hard done to is quite weak.