Spies Input

[Viridia]

I have no problem with the destroying parts.

And what could be more unrealistic than trying to walk out of a nation with a bridge?

[usgroup1]

And what could be more unrealistic than trying to walk out of a nation with a bridge?

Changing a nation's national religion.

[admin]

I've updated the information index on spies again. Mainly dealing with peace mode nations. At first I was only going to allow the Gather Intelligence operation for peace mode nations but the other missions in green text aren't really destructive and they allow nations to harass one another across the peace mode barrier without causing too much damage. Thoughts?

Also, I noticed someone earlier was concerned that after a spy attack user's wouldn't know why their nation had changed. Here's a sample PM that the spy system sends to the nation being spied upon. Note who the message is from. Tthis was a successful & undetected mission conducted against my nation. Had the spies been detected the sender of the message would show the actual attacker:

To: Admin From: Unknown Sender 9/12/2007 4:34:48 PM Subject: Spy Operation Attack

A spy operation has been launched against your nation. In the attack the enemy spies targeted your threat advisory systems and managed to change your threat advisory to level 1.

[J Andres]

The destroy infra/destroy tech/steal tech options should feature higher (# x enemy nation strength) This would make it the most balanced in ratio perspectives to the cost of the tech and infra.

[lastr0ce]

For those who keep saying, 'steal nukes and cruise missiles and infrastructure. its a game, its not supposed to be realistic.' Well, I hate to break it to you, but its a realistic simulation game. Sorry.

And you cant exactly go into a nation, pick up a nuke or cruise missile or bridge and walk off with it.

Seriously, don't say that..

So you're saying you find it rather more amusing then just destroying things? I mean come on!

You're the kind of person who would say IRL:" Look, whatever the president's doing, it'll be okay. Never question his actions."

While he's killing and nuking the hell out of a country. I.e. Bush..

I put my money on this: if the current spies system will be implement, in the beginning, people will be excited about the new feature, no doubt. but ask them again in 1 month.

Apart from the "gathering info missions" or "destroying nukes", the rest will simply not be used anymore..

-Why would I pay several thousands of dollars to destroy 1mil

-Why would I pay thousand of dollars to perform "steal tech" mission, while I can buy it 2x as cheap. (Only nations with 2k plus tech would obviously profit from this mission.

all I'm saying is that This feature could REALLY make this game so much more entertaining, so why make it so limited?

I know it's so easy to "complain" and "flame", but with this kind of feature I almost feel the need to do this, because We've been waiting for a big change for such a long time...

either way, I have no disrespect towards any Admin...

Unless he doesn't add some really cool features on top

Surprise us, Kevin!

[Bob Janova]

First, apologies if some points have been stated already; I have not read the whole thread but simply gone off the current status of the information page.

I have a few points to submit.

- I think that you ought to be able to perform more than one attack on the same nation in a day, considering that the cost of an attack is quite high and the chance of success significantly non-zero. Perhaps after each attack, the defender's counter-intel strength increases. Actually I wrote up a proposal for spies in another game which allowed the defender a multiplier of 2^n where n is the number of attacks in the past 24 hours.

- Related to the above, there is currently an exploit whereby a nation in the target's alliance can perform a spy operation from a nation with zero spies, resulting in a guaranteed fail but protecting the target from any spy operations that day.

- For the 'change X' items, the new value should always be different from the old value. For Defcon, it should always be 2 units from the current value (so defcon 1 goes to 3, 4 or 5, defcon 5 goes to 1, 2 or 3). I'm not too happy about the element of luck introduced with these actions, but I guess that's inline with the battle system (which has a lot of luck involved).

- Good to see Intel Agencies given more of a role.

[admin]

Apart from the "gathering info missions" or "destroying nukes", the rest will simply not be used anymore..

-Why would I pay several thousands of dollars to destroy 1mil

-Why would I pay thousand of dollars to perform "steal tech" mission, while I can buy it 2x as cheap. (Only nations with 2k plus tech would obviously profit from this mission.

all I'm saying is that This feature could REALLY make this game so much more entertaining, so why make it so limited?

That's what this topic is for, to help me tweak the prices and effects so that the feature is effective but not over powered.

Unless he doesn't add some really cool features on top

Surprise us, Kevin!

I'm afraid many of you are suffering from the wantwantgimmiegimmiewantwantmore disease. You should get that looked at.

[admin]

- Related to the above, there is currently an exploit whereby a nation in the target's alliance can perform a spy operation from a nation with zero spies, resulting in a guaranteed fail but protecting the target from any spy operations that day.

You make some good points but this one is the most important. Suggestion for ways around this exploit? My thoughts are to still allow nations only one attack per day but nations will have to defend against up to 3 spy operations per day. This still doesn't close the exploit, just makes it more difficult to use.

[steodonn]

$500K for 5 Tech. More tech please. Noone in there right mind will use that. Now 10-15 would be worth it

Edited September 12, 2007 by steodonn

[lastr0ce]

That's what this topic is for, to help me tweak the prices and effects so that the feature is effective but not over powered.

I'm afraid many of you are suffering from the w disease. You should get that looked at.

you're so right, I know, but that wasn't exactly how I wanted to impress myself. don't forget, those who are posting in this thread , are obviously the one who are interested in this feature, rather then just getting involved into the politics.

you have so many people playing this game, who are ONLY interested in the "politics" part.

but that's totally off-topic.

I would just want to ask you: wouldn't it be nice for a small nation, who never got the chance to get big to have nukes, to be able to STEAL one, instead of destroying...

Destroying things is fun when you don't need them, In war you can do that. So why couldn't we use the spies to steal stuff which we do need. No?

What I also would like to ask: how come you made the prices THAT high?

I hard for us to decide what's best.. So I'm asking you why you picked the current missions, above the other?

(It's a real question..)

[cookieking]

I would just want to ask you: wouldn't it be nice for a small nation, who never got the chance to get big to have nukes, to be able to STEAL one, instead of destroying...

Stealing nukes=no, not possible at all in RL, so should be possible even here, how exactly would you get it stolen with no one seeing you?

[lastr0ce]

You make some good points but this one is the most important. Suggestion for ways around this exploit?

to be honest, I doubt there is one?

It's like when you would add the "steal money" part, alliances could simply "aid" with "spies"

"hey I need 1million in aid!"

- Just spy on X, his aid slots are full, but you can spy on him!"

[lastr0ce]

Stealing nukes=no, not possible at all in RL, so should be possible even here, how exactly would you get it stolen with no one seeing you?

once again: Cn is absolutely not RL, at many points already..

There's so many suggestions I have, but this one takes the cake in how Spies could be convenient, and well thought.

I keep seeing:" no no 10infra is MILLIONs for big guys", "no no nuke can not be stolen", "no no in peace mode"

It's always the same guys who say that kind of stuff, just so they would be "safe

It would give everybody the chance to get involved more if that would be possible..

Edited September 12, 2007 by las trace

[Rakarth]

You make some good points but this one is the most important. Suggestion for ways around this exploit?

Why can't you just add it in the lists of cheats? Like war slot filling.

The main thing is that there has to be a cap on how many spy attacks you can do each day. Or else a large alliance can just send a couple of 100k to every nation to perform spy attacks against the same target. A large alliance could ZI another large nation in a very short time. (Not only ZIed but zero everything, infra, tech, nukes, tanks).

This feature will make huge changes on how alliance wars will be played out later. Alliances can no longer have bank nations to help out with rebuilding if their enemys can destroy the chash reserves even if the bank is in peace mode.

[cookieking]

once again: Cn is absolutely not RL, at many points already..

There's so many suggestions I have, but this one takes the cake in how Spies could be convenient, and well thought.

I keep seeing:" no no 10infra is MILLIONs for big guys", "no no nuke can not be stolen", etc..

It gives everybody the chance to get involved..

But nukes being stolen? No, its a giant warhead. If you can provide a valid way of how you would steal a nuke without it taking 100 years, and no aliens, then I will see it as a possible feature, not that it matters if I want it or not since this is admin's game.

[lastr0ce]

But nukes being stolen? No, its a giant warhead. If you can provide a valid way of how you would steal a nuke without it taking 100 years, and no aliens, then I will see it as a possible feature, not that it matters if I want it or not since this is admin's game.

I understand your reaction, but again: it would be cool for a small nation who gets no help, nothing. It would make the game intersting for smaller too..

btw, it's not like they would get it on no time, as they have to buy spies and, on top of that, do the mission.. It would rather cost them more then a million already..

[lastr0ce]

My last post in this thread, directed to Kevin, the admin.

We could discuss this forever, and ever, but it would lead us to nothing. My advice is, just do what you feel is the most entertaining, cool, appropriate missions to add

Seriously, you're asking a community what they would like, but it's pretty hard to figure out what's best for everybody..

anyways, main points I'd like to write down:

-The price is just HUGE comparing to what we get, HUGE!

- The ability to steal "unique" items, but limited. something like "1 nuke per 10days"

Either reduce the price to steal tech, or increase the amount we can steal.

Maybe work in percentages..

- increasing the amounts of spy-operations a day, if not, with additional Wonder or improvement..

[thesoulman]

I do not like this new spy idea. I don't think it really brings anything to the game and it just more stuff to worry about.

[+Zeke+]

I've updated the information index on spies again. Mainly dealing with peace mode nations. At first I was only going to allow the Gather Intelligence operation for peace mode nations but the other missions in green text aren't really destructive and they allow nations to harass one another across the peace mode barrier without causing too much damage. Thoughts?

Peace mode already has enough onerous burdens already. It's also the game sole ability for nation "suspension". If we are going to do this the let's simply discard the peace mode feature and tell the member base that nations will always be at risk every day. Then the members can decide if a 24/7/365 constant game is the right one for them to play.

Messing with the trade system by exposing trade partners is nothing but an opportunity for more alliance extortion and yet another difficulty in an already difficult aspect of the game.

As for the entire spies concept, I'm against it as it is written now. Changing it to simply adding modifiers to the existing war system is the path I would be comfortable with. As it stands now I'll be wasting 55 million and cutting my daily gross income by $4 simply to avoid the feature as much as I can.

[Liffer]

You make some good points but this one is the most important. Suggestion for ways around this exploit? My thoughts are to still allow nations only one attack per day but nations will have to defend against up to 3 spy operations per day. This still doesn't close the exploit, just makes it more difficult to use.

If a nation can be "attacked" by 3 spy missions in a day, then they should be able to conduct that many of their own. As with wars, they should be against different nations, but if 3 enemies are targeting me, I should also be able to target each of them back.

The 1:3 system will place unaligned nations and small alliances at a major disadvantage. Even if I know the identities of all of my attackers, I can only strike back against one of them. Not fair.

Also, will the notification PM go out even if the mission is a failure and the identity isn't revealed? Something like "Unknown nation tried and failed to do X".

Edited September 12, 2007 by Liffer

[PrototyoeRuler]

Spies should not be allowed to change DefCom, religion, or government. They should be allowed how ever to destroy a certain amount of soldiers, and planes and infrastructure as well as gathering information apoun said nation.

[cookieking]

Maybe the spies attack amount should be based on a percentage? This could help balance it more equally, although I have no clue what a good percentage to to put it at would be.

[Zerk2]

Raise the price of the Police Headquarters improvement and make it so it helps defend against spies, maybe something like "reduces effectiveness of enemy spies -5%".

[fuzzycat]

I can forecast you this: Spies are going to be "missused" to additionall transfer tech besides aid slots between friendly nations.

Of course this makes tech more expensive per level than usual trading, but for top nations this is just another *additional* way of getting tech to them, when their slots already filled up. And it be still much cheaper than to buy tech the normal way.

In future a tech deal will look like this: I send you 3M you send me 50 tech and again 50 tech, and allow me to "spy-steal" your tech 3 times, oh and please set readiness to minimum. Don't forget your additional benefeit: You will be safe from foreign spy missions why I "spy" you.

Also this Incite Government Propagand and Incite Religious Propaganda missions, its going to work like this inside the alliance: "Hey dude, here is 3M can you please spy-attack me each day, until my people desire monarchy? Thank you! Rince and repeat if my people change their mind again". For hugh nations this is going to pay off.

[Allnighte]

You make some good points but this one is the most important. Suggestion for ways around this exploit? My thoughts are to still allow nations only one attack per day but nations will have to defend against up to 3 spy operations per day. This still doesn't close the exploit, just makes it more difficult to use.

so you don't even need a spy to be able to perform spy operations?

if you do need a spy, and people try to "spy slot fill", isn't there a chance that the spy can die?

"Aside from dying on a mission, and from assassination, spies are also vulnerable to defeat alerts where up to 5 spies can be killed."

so what are the odds of dying during a mission?

"The defending nation's counter intelligence systems are determined by (number of spies) + (technology level / 20) + (land purchased / 70). Threat level modifiers are also taken into account for the defender."

is ^^this^^ the odds that the mission will fail? or the spies will die too?