Order off Order

[Rush Sykes]

 

I wasn't in Sengoku, first off. And yeah, I think I have some kind of idea what I am talking about as someone that was against the terms, wanted the war to be wrapped up, and was fairly vocal about it and took the things Brehon was saying at face value.

 

I'll grant you that it's fairly clear different things were being said to different people and a lot of retrospective ass coverage has gone on.

 

Welcome to coalition warfare. You still did not address my single question though, and if you were not one who thought this was the case, just say so, because i am old and dont remember names and faces too well...

 

Reconcile this for me...

 

Fact 1: TLR told NPO that we were not interested in exiting the war, till  GOONS and MK were out.

 

Fact 2: GOONS and MK were not going to leave the war until Umbs terms were secured, and would almost certainly fight alongside Umb for the duration of any terms.

 

Fact 3: Not speaking for ODN or GATO or INT, but C&G, as an MADP , was not leaving the war until we all were leaving.

 

Fact 4: Everyone below NPO in the EQ coalition constantly tossed out the tag line that NPO were trying to influence terms to protect C&G.

 

Fact 5: C&G was in no way, no shape, no how, exiting that war under the terms you said Brehon supported.

 

 

Do you not see that those cant ALL be true? 4 of them Jive.. one does not. So reconcile it for me... how does an entire coalition blame NPO for "protecting" C&G, by offering terms C&G patently had up front rejected.

[Krashnaia]

Consider this a free lesson to you , from me, about coalitions. Things are rarely what they seem. There is ALWAYS a centralized structure of 2, maybe 3, sometimes 4 alliances that really do make all of those decisions. Sengoku was not among them.

I'm fairy certain that TLR was not among them, either. So, everything you are "teaching" Auctor about, applies a lot better to your situation.

[Auctor]

 

Welcome to coalition warfare. You still did not address my single question though, and if you were not one who thought this was the case, just say so, because i am old and dont remember names and faces too well...

 

Reconcile this for me...

 

Fact 1: TLR told NPO that we were not interested in exiting the war, till  GOONS and MK were out.

 

Fact 2: GOONS and MK were not going to leave the war until Umbs terms were secured, and would almost certainly fight alongside Umb for the duration of any terms.

 

Fact 3: Not speaking for ODN or GATO or INT, but C&G, as an MADP , was not leaving the war until we all were leaving.

 

Fact 4: Everyone below NPO in the EQ coalition constantly tossed out the tag line that NPO were trying to influence terms to protect C&G.

 

Fact 5: C&G was in no way, no shape, no how, exiting that war under the terms you said Brehon supported.

 

 

Do you not see that those cant ALL be true? 4 of them Jive.. one does not. So reconcile it for me... how does an entire coalition blame NPO for "protecting" C&G, by offering terms C&G patently had up front rejected.

 

 

That's for a different Equilibrium guy tbh. I had no issues with peace getting done when it was clear many wanted to continue the war and few were actively fighting it. I wanted those terms tossed so it could end quickly.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Auctor

[Mr Vicarious]

 

Welcome to coalition warfare. You still did not address my single question though, and if you were not one who thought this was the case, just say so, because i am old and dont remember names and faces too well...

 

Reconcile this for me...

 

Fact 1: TLR told NPO that we were not interested in exiting the war, till  GOONS and MK were out.

 

Fact 2: GOONS and MK were not going to leave the war until Umbs terms were secured, and would almost certainly fight alongside Umb for the duration of any terms.

 

Fact 3: Not speaking for ODN or GATO or INT, but C&G, as an MADP , was not leaving the war until we all were leaving.

 

Fact 4: Everyone below NPO in the EQ coalition constantly tossed out the tag line that NPO were trying to influence terms to protect C&G.

 

Fact 5: C&G was in no way, no shape, no how, exiting that war under the terms you said Brehon supported.

 

 

Do you not see that those cant ALL be true? 4 of them Jive.. one does not. So reconcile it for me... how does an entire coalition blame NPO for "protecting" C&G, by offering terms C&G patently had up front rejected.

 

Part of the reason NPO ended up in the situation they are currently in is because Brehon chose to promise everything to everyone. When everyone started talking and realized that the promises were contradictory, that's when the fun in eQ really began.

[Rush Sykes]

I'm fairy certain that TLR was not among them, either. So, everything you are "teaching" Auctor about, applies a lot better to your situation.

 

Except I am not telling him anything about his coalition. I am asking how all 5 of those statements can be true. I have no delusions.

 

NPO was in a shit position. I KNOW they were less than 100% honest with me. Thats how war works. Thats why I retired from among the plotters on this planet, I am not cut out to lie to allies, and to TRULY play the political game on Planet Bob well, you have to be able to lie to allies. I know NPO gov in some fashion lied to me and my alliance in that war. I would respect them LESS if they had NOT. It is a necessary part of winning a war. The point was, Auctor said I did not know what I was talking about because I was not in EQ. My counterpoint is allies have to lie to allies in war (same side or other side, it matters not), so what he presented as a factual reality, is something that needs looked deeper into. Sengokus other allies higher up in the coalition also lied to Sengoku, it was not with a bad intent, it is just a necessary evil to be a good player in politics on Planet Bob. It is , as I said, why I stepped so far back, I am not cut out to lie to allies with a straight face.

[Auctor]

 

Except I am not telling him anything about his coalition. I am asking how all 5 of those statements can be true. I have no delusions.

 

NPO was in a !@#$ position. I KNOW they were less than 100% honest with me. Thats how war works. Thats why I retired from among the plotters on this planet, I am not cut out to lie to allies, and to TRULY play the political game on Planet Bob well, you have to be able to lie to allies. I know NPO gov in some fashion lied to me and my alliance in that war. I would respect them LESS if they had NOT. It is a necessary part of winning a war. The point was, Auctor said I did not know what I was talking about because I was not in EQ. My counterpoint is allies have to lie to allies in war (same side or other side, it matters not), so what he presented as a factual reality, is something that needs looked deeper into. Sengokus other allies higher up in the coalition also lied to Sengoku, it was not with a bad intent, it is just a necessary evil to be a good player in politics on Planet Bob. It is , as I said, why I stepped so far back, I am not cut out to lie to allies with a straight face.

 

To clarify, I was GK of GLoF and there was substantial contact between Brehon himself and TOP front.

[hartfw]

 

To clarify, I was GK of GLoF and there was substantial contact between Brehon himself and TOP front.

 

Mhm, without him we could not be trusted to negotiate.

[MitchellBade]

I'll be the first to SAY that I'm glad that RUSH has dramatically declined in his USE of all caps whilst whining.

[Rush Sykes]

 

To clarify, I was GK of GLoF and there was substantial contact between Brehon himself and TOP front.

 

There is a chasm of difference between "being in contact with"... and knowing what is REALLY going on.

[Auctor]

 

There is a chasm of difference between "being in contact with"... and knowing what is REALLY going on.

 

You only know what you were told as well. This line of logic leaves everyone right and everyone wrong.

[Dochartaigh]

 

It's us. We're extremely disgruntled.

 

I knew it... But I thought you loved me Thrash. :(

 

 

Consider this a free lesson to you , from me, about coalitions. Things are rarely what they seem. There is ALWAYS a centralized structure of 2, maybe 3, sometimes 4 alliances that really do make all of those decisions. Sengoku was not among them. I was in wars where Athens was not among them, one where TLR was not among them. In those situations, as the news filters down to the peripheral alliances, it is dressed, primped and preened, so as to make everyone think they have their own little say in what is going on, when the reality is, you do not. This is not meant to insult you, each alliance has a station within a coalition. If you think, as gov of Sengoku, that you had a clue as to NPOs intention, you are deluding yourself. Or are you yet another one who did not listen to a single bootleg episode and hear the number of times Brehon said he would never insist on a term other than a handshake and white peace?

 

Yeah others have said it already but love how you are trying to lecture someone when your alliance was on the other side of the war.

 

 

Except I am not telling him anything about his coalition. I am asking how all 5 of those statements can be true. I have no delusions.

 

NPO was in a !@#$ position. I KNOW they were less than 100% honest with me. Thats how war works. Thats why I retired from among the plotters on this planet, I am not cut out to lie to allies, and to TRULY play the political game on Planet Bob well, you have to be able to lie to allies. I know NPO gov in some fashion lied to me and my alliance in that war. I would respect them LESS if they had NOT. It is a necessary part of winning a war. The point was, Auctor said I did not know what I was talking about because I was not in EQ. My counterpoint is allies have to lie to allies in war (same side or other side, it matters not), so what he presented as a factual reality, is something that needs looked deeper into. Sengokus other allies higher up in the coalition also lied to Sengoku, it was not with a bad intent, it is just a necessary evil to be a good player in politics on Planet Bob. It is , as I said, why I stepped so far back, I am not cut out to lie to allies with a straight face.

 

And there we have it. Rush knows that NPO lied to him (that is what being less than 100% honest means) and yet still believes everything NPO says. So, if you know that NPO lied to you and TLR, you did not know what was "really going on" either. And again, Auctor stated that a lot of the alliances talked amongst each other (I know, heaven forbid the lessor alliances talk to one another) and most likely found out that NPO was the main one pushing terms against Umbrella. 

 

But hey, keep on imagining whatever it is you are imagining. Apparently, despite NPO lying to you (and you knowing this fact), you still believe everything NPO says. Man, talk about being good little sheeple. 

[Boston]

Good to see arguments from years ago lasting pages. MI6 always brings plenty of whine just never enough cheese.

[MitchellBade]

Good to see arguments from years ago lasting pages. MI6 always brings plenty of whine just never enough cheese.

 

Coming from an alliance that prides itself on its history, I find it rather ironic that you would downplay arguments revolving around historical relevance.  

Edited February 13, 2014 by MitchellBade

[Krashnaia]

 

Except I am not telling him anything about his coalition. I am asking how all 5 of those statements can be true. I have no delusions.

 

NPO was in a !@#$ position. I KNOW they were less than 100% honest with me. Thats how war works. Thats why I retired from among the plotters on this planet, I am not cut out to lie to allies, and to TRULY play the political game on Planet Bob well, you have to be able to lie to allies. I know NPO gov in some fashion lied to me and my alliance in that war. I would respect them LESS if they had NOT. It is a necessary part of winning a war. The point was, Auctor said I did not know what I was talking about because I was not in EQ. My counterpoint is allies have to lie to allies in war (same side or other side, it matters not), so what he presented as a factual reality, is something that needs looked deeper into. Sengokus other allies higher up in the coalition also lied to Sengoku, it was not with a bad intent, it is just a necessary evil to be a good player in politics on Planet Bob. It is , as I said, why I stepped so far back, I am not cut out to lie to allies with a straight face.

 

Well, I think this post pretty much sums up why Pacificia and her pals are stuck in their current predicament.

 

- You admit that NPO was lying to everyone, and that such behaviour is their normal modus operandi.

- You state that lying to allies is, not only a necessity, but the right thing to do ("I would respect them less if they had not").

 

So, what we have now? Your sphere isolated because none of you can be trusted. The people NPO lied to, seeking payback. And on top of that, your pals are now playing the victim and pretending to have the moral high ground.

 

I value your honesty here. I do not think that lying to friends is the way to "play the game", but at least you admit it openly, instead of attempting to feed us !@#$%^&*.

 

If I may give you an advice, dump the people who think lying to friends is right, and stick to people who do not screw their partners. You may not win all the wars, but, hey, it's not like your way has allowed you to, either.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Krashnaia

[Boston]

Coming from an alliance that prides itself on its history, I find it rather ironic that you would downplay arguments revolving around historical relevance.

Priding oneself on history and living in it are two very different things and I hope you can one day differentiate between the two. By all means keep regurgitating the same comments. Alliance Name: MI6 has become the shorthand for "no need to read" for me.

Cheers to Peace for now. :D

[The Zigur]

Consider this a free lesson to you , from me, about coalitions. Things are rarely what they seem. There is ALWAYS a centralized structure of 2, maybe 3, sometimes 4 alliances that really do make all of those decisions. Sengoku was not among them. I was in wars where Athens was not among them, one where TLR was not among them. In those situations, as the news filters down to the peripheral alliances, it is dressed, primped and preened, so as to make everyone think they have their own little say in what is going on, when the reality is, you do not.

I don't know about that. In a good coalition, anyone with a good idea is generally welcome to contribute. HB was a peripheral alliance that played a support role, but I never felt shunned from participating. But then again, in a coalition lead by imperialists, foederati allies probably feel looked down on by "true Pacificans."

[Auctor]

I don't know about that. In a good coalition, anyone with a good idea is generally welcome to contribute. HB was a peripheral alliance that played a support role, but I never felt shunned from participating. But then again, in a coalition lead by imperialists, foederati allies probably feel looked down on by "true Pacificans."

 

I'm not actually sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing?

[Neo Uruk]

Coming from an alliance that prides itself on its history, I find it rather ironic that you would downplay arguments revolving around historical relevance.

NPO also prides itself on its current state of not being Sparta.

Having past accomplishments =/= bringing up past crimes in a current debate on OH MY GOD YOU'RE SO BAD

[Neo Uruk]

I don't know about that. In a good coalition, anyone with a good idea is generally welcome to contribute. HB was a peripheral alliance that played a support role, but I never felt shunned from participating. But then again, in a coalition lead by imperialists, foederati allies probably feel looked down on by "true Pacificans."

who wants to play "guess what's wrong with this post" Edited February 13, 2014 by Neo Uruk

[The Zigur]

Did I miss the memo and the Imperialists won or something? Lol

[Neo Uruk]

News Flash: Polar has an Emperor.

[Rush Sykes]

 

You only know what you were told as well. This line of logic leaves everyone right and everyone wrong.

 

No, it really doesnt. There is a reality the comes more to light in the post-war machinations. At the time, any one of us could have been wrong, or right, in what we interpreted.

[Rush Sykes]

 

I knew it... But I thought you loved me Thrash. :(

 

 

Yeah others have said it already but love how you are trying to lecture someone when your alliance was on the other side of the war.

 

 

And there we have it. Rush knows that NPO lied to him (that is what being less than 100% honest means) and yet still believes everything NPO says. So, if you know that NPO lied to you and TLR, you did not know what was "really going on" either. And again, Auctor stated that a lot of the alliances talked amongst each other (I know, heaven forbid the lessor alliances talk to one another) and most likely found out that NPO was the main one pushing terms against Umbrella. 

 

But hey, keep on imagining whatever it is you are imagining. Apparently, despite NPO lying to you (and you knowing this fact), you still believe everything NPO says. Man, talk about being good little sheeple. 

 

When did you become so clueless? I know its a shock to you... allies HAVE to lie to allies. I dont believe everything anyone says, I form my own opinion, but I do so knowing that lies can come from anywhere. Once again, it is WHY I left high gov, I am simply not cut out to be shady and duplicitous with my allies... with fringe alliances, or allies allies, I can be shady and duplicitous with the best of them, but not with my own allies. It is not who I am, it is why I am now not in that position. None of this, however, makes me wrong in pointing it out to others. But by all means, continue to completely be oblivious is it to what I am actually saying. It is your M.O. these days.

[Rush Sykes]

 

Well, I think this post pretty much sums up why Pacificia and her pals are stuck in their current predicament.

 

- You admit that NPO was lying to everyone, and that such behaviour is their normal modus operandi.

- You state that lying to allies is, not only a necessity, but the right thing to do ("I would respect them less if they had not").

 

So, what we have now? Your sphere isolated because none of you can be trusted. The people NPO lied to, seeking payback. And on top of that, your pals are now playing the victim and pretending to have the moral high ground.

 

I value your honesty here. I do not think that lying to friends is the way to "play the game", but at least you admit it openly, instead of attempting to feed us !@#$%^&*.

 

If I may give you an advice, dump the people who think lying to friends is right, and stick to people who do not screw their partners. You may not win all the wars, but, hey, it's not like your way has allowed you to, either.

 

 

This is yet another poor soul who thinks this lying to allies is confined to NPO. And this could not POSSIBLY be happening in the righteous coalition that they were all just a part of. It is completely hilarious. Let me tell you bold faced, because it is clear you lack the ability to understand.... I have allies that lie to me. You have allies that lie to you. Your own gov lies to allies. What part of "it is part of the political positioning game" here on Planet Bob do you not get. Alliance govs have a 1st responsibility to their own alliance, not to their allies. More often than any one of us can count, there arise times when their responsibility to their own alliance deems it necessary to withhold, alter, or flat out lie, with information to allies, allies of allies, coalition partners. Nobody is immune from it. Not NPO. Not TLR, Not MI6. Nobody.

[Llanowar Elf]

 

Hello sir. First, I would like to thank you for your thoughtful response to our actions, whether you agree with them or not.

 

Secondly, I believe that the reasons for the CCC's staying in the war until this point can be summarized in the following ways:

 

1) We wished to ensure that our treaty obligations were fulfilled to our allies in the most satisfactory manner possible.

 

2) Our government hoped to gain, if terms were obligatory, the most lenient terms agreeable to the coalition as possible, as is our way as an alliance. The most effective way to influence the negotiations, therefore, was to be party to them.

 

That said, you are correct. We are party to these terms, as we were party to this war. It is an unfortunate aspect of politics and coalition warfare that there is such a thing as "guilt by association", at least in the eyes of our "enemies" (a term I use lightly). And we regret that. Indeed, we would see all wars fought honorably and end in white peace, but such is not the case in the world of today. Instead, we must do the best we can, as all people, and nations, do.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

(OOC: Also, your singing is excellent. Really.)

I'd like to say, everything he said here was correct. With the the exception that we entered to simply influence negotiations. The front needed help, to end the war. We ourselves were tied to the front by ODN/GATO. Our friends on both sides were hurting. We all wanted it over, we did our best to help in end so. 

 

We did not want to leave our allies on a field that we had agreed to help close/cover. Doing so would be counter productive. So that is why we stayed until the very end. CCC said very early on we will only take white peace in the end. We would rather have seen a mantra of white peace, or even a defeat and we move on. That was never going to happen, for ourselves, it was always going to happen.