a question of this war.

[Neo Uruk]

 
You must have missed the part about Umbrella thumbing its nose at Ai during the process, including being as unhelpful as possible and in other words telling us to go fuck ourselves for having the audacity to have an issue with them doing what was later deemed to be by moderation -- slot filling.
 
And the known and stated (in the Declaration,) intent of DH to want to cause harm to Ai and its allies -- which is also indisputable.
 
You're welcome.

Yes, the indisputable fact that we want to harm those who have attacked us. Our master plan, revealed.

[WorldConqueror]

So not only the action which some here still scream at the top of their lungs wasn't illegal, but the moderation has deemed it was -- but the manner in which Umbrella (including those government members in on the hit,) continued to thumb its nose at Ai and the entirety of the game. Its recent bellicosity towards all parties is marked and even those fulfilling their treaty obligations on your "side," would laugh uncontrollably at Tick's suggestion that Doomhouse has actually done more to retain members in this "place,"  through its recent history.

Ah, so not just hitting Puppets, but also being Big Meanies. Gotcha.

[Tick1]

So not only the action which some here still scream at the top of their lungs wasn't illegal, but the moderation has deemed it was -- but the manner in which Umbrella (including those government members in on the hit,) continued to thumb its nose at Ai and the entirety of the game. Its recent bellicosity towards all parties is marked and even those fulfilling their treaty obligations on your "side," would laugh uncontrollably at Tick's suggestion that Doomhouse has actually done more to retain members in this "place,"  through its recent history.

 

Green Bay vs 49ers - Wild Card match-up (1998)

Jerry Rice fumbled the ball, but after review was 'deemed' down. Even though evidence suggested the latter, outcome Steve Young led his team to a comeback.

 

Atlanta Braves vs Minnesota Twins - World Series Game 2 (1991)

Kent Hrbek pushed Ron Gant off of first base, the Umpire claimed momentum pulled him off of the base and called him out. Braves lost the game by one run and would drop the series in seven games.

 

Utah Jazz vs Chicago Bulls - NBA Finals (1998)

Michael Jordan pushed off of Bryon Russell down by one point to sink the 20-foot jumper. This was not called by the referees and would clinch the series for the Chicago Bulls.

 

There have been numerous bad calls made throughout all sporting events that have existed. There will continue to be more bad call, there is no exception to this.

 

Nobody is perfect and can make all of the correct calls, I don't expect them too. However if you want to scrutinize us for being big bad meanies then go right ahead. We did what was required of us, that is all I am implying when I make my statements. Basing your facts on uncertainties is all that has occurred here.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Tick1

[Caliph]

Exactly this. It's what I call "spinning like a TOP."

 

 

 

Right. So if we had all just blitzed Umbrella without provocation or declaration, and waited for Umbrella to post the first acknowledgement, that would mean that Umbrella started it? Again, just how stupid do you really expect people to be?

 

Umbrella initiated hostilities, AI responded appropriately.

 

 

 

 

Umbrella did not initiatve hostilities, its like talking to a brick wall here.  AI initiated hostilities by attacking (and thusly initiating hostilies) Umbrella. 

 

Using your example if you had blitzed Umbrella without provocation or decleration, that would still mean you initiated hostilities against Umbrella and Umbrella would still be the defender. 

 

This is a very simple concept.  I'm suprised that you feel you must spin this to make you the defender when the facts, looked at objectively, do not promote your view.

[Caliph]

So, Umb has the right to enforce their Internal Policies without regard to how it might impact other alliances? Claiming that Umb was innocent bystander is laughable.

 

Nobody is claiming Umbrella was an innocent bystander.  What I am claiming is that Umbrella is the defender in this war, and  that AI and allies were the agressor.  Thats it. 

 

Its laughable how much spin you lot are putting on this to try to seem the defender.  We both know you are not defending against anything, and that this is an agressive war started by you lot.  I'm ok with that,  We are ok with that.  Umbrella is fine with that.  Just own up and stop trying to spin this to make you seem like you didn't start this.

 

You saw an opportunity and took it.  Stop trying to spin, your better than that.

[Tick1]

Nobody is claiming Umbrella was an innocent bystander.  What I am claiming is that Umbrella is the defender in this war, and  that AI and allies were the agressor.  Thats it. 

 

Its laughable how much spin you lot are putting on this to try to seem the defender.  We both know you are not defending against anything, and that this is an agressive war started by you lot.  I'm ok with that,  We are ok with that.  Umbrella is fine with that.  Just own up and stop trying to spin this to make you seem like you didn't start this.

 

You saw an opportunity and took it.  Stop trying to spin, your better than that.

 

I'm starting to think they aren't, better than that.

[d3mon]

Nobody is claiming Umbrella was an innocent bystander.  What I am claiming is that Umbrella is the defender in this war, and  that AI and allies were the agressor.  Thats it. 

 

Its laughable how much spin you lot are putting on this to try to seem the defender.  We both know you are not defending against anything, and that this is an agressive war started by you lot.  I'm ok with that,  We are ok with that.  Umbrella is fine with that.  Just own up and stop trying to spin this to make you seem like you didn't start this.

 

You saw an opportunity and took it.  Stop trying to spin, your better than that.

 

The timeline of the events was

 

1) Puppet went rogue on AI.

 

2) Some trigger happy people jump on him and blow the stagger.

 

3) Puppet escapes to PM and restocks his nuclear arsenal.

 

4) Puppets comes out of PM and is declared on by three Umb nations within minutes.

 

The #4 indicates that Puppets was actively coordinating with Umb nations, you might try to spin it as much as you want but that action indicates that Umb wanted to allow him to escape to PM again and were thus actively helping Puppets rogue AI. This was the first aggressive action by any alliance and by extension Umb are the aggressors.

 

If you believe that someone has to post a war declaration to declare war and anything else is just a CB then you must be living in a different world.

 

I hate the "No U" arguments but "Stop trying to spin, your better than that" is exactly what I feel.

[Caliph]

The timeline of the events was

 

1) Puppet went rogue on AI.

 

2) Some trigger happy people jump on him and blow the stagger.

 

3) Puppet escapes to PM and restocks his nuclear arsenal.

 

4) Puppets comes out of PM and is declared on by three Umb nations within minutes.

 

The #4 indicates that Puppets was actively coordinating with Umb nations, you might try to spin it as much as you want but that action indicates that Umb wanted to allow him to escape to PM again and were thus actively helping Puppets rogue AI. This was the first aggressive action by any alliance and by extension Umb are the aggressors.

 

If you believe that someone has to post a war declaration to declare war and anything else is just a CB then you must be living in a different world.

 

I hate the "No U" arguments but "Stop trying to spin, your better than that" is exactly what I feel.

 

Incorrect.  The #4 indicates how active Umbrella nations are, since Puppets himself set forth a timeline of events and posted on IRC that he was out of peace mode, so Umbrlela mobilised 3 nations (or more likely they mobilised themselves) and hit Puppets.  That does not indicate any sort of coordination, simply extreme levels of activity.

 

Regardless, lets say Umbrella did sanction filling puppets war slots.  Hitting Umbrella in that case still makes Umbrella the defender since they didn't touch AI prior to AI and friends hitting Umbrella.

 

Someone doesn't have to post a DOW to be in a state of war with someone else, there are some things that you do that don't require a DOW.  Filling a rogues war slots and then subsequently launching attacks on said rogue in accordance with your alliance policy is not one of those things. 

 

Is it a reason for war?  Sure.  But it most certaintly is not an attack on AI which you claim. 

[d3mon]

Incorrect.  The #4 indicates how active Umbrella nations are, since Puppets himself set forth a timeline of events and posted on IRC that he was out of peace mode, so Umbrlela mobilised 3 nations (or more likely they mobilised themselves) and hit Puppets.  That does not indicate any sort of coordination, simply extreme levels of activity.

 

Regardless, lets say Umbrella did sanction filling puppets war slots.  Hitting Umbrella in that case still makes Umbrella the defender since they didn't touch AI prior to AI and friends hitting Umbrella.

 

Someone doesn't have to post a DOW to be in a state of war with someone else, there are some things that you do that don't require a DOW.  Filling a rogues war slots and then subsequently launching attacks on said rogue in accordance with your alliance policy is not one of those things. 

 

Is it a reason for war?  Sure.  But it most certaintly is not an attack on AI which you claim. 

 

On which irc channel was Puppets posting it? Was it #anarchyinc? Are Umb nations allowed to attack without gov approval?

 

A direct consequence of Umb's actions would be AI taking more damage and I am sure you guys realized that. Were there any attempts to contact AI gov to make sure that they were ok with it?

 

If you believe that a deliberate action that is intended to cause damage to an alliance is not a declaration of war then I don't think we can ever agree. AI's actions were not a declaration of war, they were a response to the war that Umb started. AI just opened the floodgates.

[WorldConqueror]

If you believe that a deliberate action that is intended to cause damage to an alliance is not a declaration of war then I don't think we can ever agree.

And that is the crux of the matter. Umb were enforcing BIBO, nothing more and nothing less.

[Caliph]

On which irc channel was Puppets posting it? Was it #anarchyinc? Are Umb nations allowed to attack without gov approval?

 

A direct consequence of Umb's actions would be AI taking more damage and I am sure you guys realized that. Were there any attempts to contact AI gov to make sure that they were ok with it?

 

If you believe that a deliberate action that is intended to cause damage to an alliance is not a declaration of war then I don't think we can ever agree. AI's actions were not a declaration of war, they were a response to the war that Umb started. AI just opened the floodgates.

 

Actually the lie in your statement is that by taking 3 of Puppet's defensive slots we were making sure AI took more damage.  In actuality if AI had taken puppet's 3 defensive war slots to have 6 of puppets war slots then AI would be taking [b]more[/b] damage in this scenario, and [b]less[/b] damage if they only had 3 war slots.

 

So no, the direct consequence of Umbrella taking 3 of Puppet's war slots was AI taking [b]less[/b] damage from Puppets since he could only damage 3 AI nations instead of 6. 

 

No matter how you spin it, taking Puppet's war slots was no in any way a deliberate plan to cause more damage to AI.  The fact is you were looking for an excuse, a reason, to hit Umbrella for months now.  You finally got one, congratulations.  Just don't claim Umbrella attacked you because that just ain't true.  We were fulfilling our policy of BIBO.  Not performing a deliberate slight against AI.
 

[lamuella]

You must have missed the part about Umbrella thumbing its nose at Ai during the process, including being as unhelpful as possible and in other words telling us to go fuck ourselves for having the audacity to have an issue with them doing what was later deemed to be by moderation -- slot filling.
 
And the known and stated (in the Declaration,) intent of DH to want to cause harm to Ai and its allies -- which is also indisputable.
 
You're welcome.

So we're wrong to say it was all about the Puppets thing because... you also thought they were quite rude? Or to put it another way, it was all about the Puppets thing.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Actually the lie in your statement is that by taking 3 of Puppet's defensive slots we were making sure AI took more damage.  In actuality if AI had taken puppet's 3 defensive war slots to have 6 of puppets war slots then AI would be taking more damage in this scenario, and less damage if they only had 3 war slots.

 

So no, the direct consequence of Umbrella taking 3 of Puppet's war slots was AI taking less damage from Puppets since he could only damage 3 AI nations instead of 6. 

 

It's truly mind-boggling to think that a ruler with your casualty count could possibly be such a noob at war as to believe what you are posting. The alternative is that you are simply spinning like a TOP and posting stuff you know is false.

 

The amount of damage AI takes in that situation has nothing to do with how many nations he can damage simultaneously, but does depend on how quickly he can be run out of nukes. When stagger was blown it guaranteed him time to restock nukes fully and take another run. I really cannot believe that you even believe there are enough people actively reading this forum that dont understand this to have even made it worth your time to post.

 

And even if the self-proclaimed elite rulers of Umbrella are really such total noobs at war they didnt understand this, I am sure it was communicated quite clearly over the previous week that the actions they were about to take were unwanted and would be seen as hostile. In fact, I am pretty sure that was the point all along. Why dont you man up and admit it?

[WorldConqueror]

It's truly mind-boggling to think that a ruler with your casualty count could possibly be such a noob at war as to believe what you are posting. The alternative is that you are simply spinning like a TOP and posting stuff you know is false.
 
The amount of damage AI takes in that situation has nothing to do with how many nations he can damage simultaneously, but does depend on how quickly he can be run out of nukes. When stagger was blown it guaranteed him time to restock nukes fully and take another run. I really cannot believe that you even believe there are enough people actively reading this forum that dont understand this to have even made it worth your time to post.
 
And even if the self-proclaimed elite rulers of Umbrella are really such total noobs at war they didnt understand this, I am sure it was communicated quite clearly over the previous week that the actions they were about to take were unwanted and would be seen as hostile. In fact, I am pretty sure that was the point all along. Why dont you man up and admit it?

The fact that AI felt the need to instigate a global war over their own inability to declare on Puppets after the expiration of the first round is hilarious. How would they have ever managed in the old days before the advent of staggers, when the immediate post-update hit was common practice.

[d3mon]

Actually the lie in your statement is that by taking 3 of Puppet's defensive slots we were making sure AI took more damage.  In actuality if AI had taken puppet's 3 defensive war slots to have 6 of puppets war slots then AI would be taking more damage in this scenario, and less damage if they only had 3 war slots.

 

So no, the direct consequence of Umbrella taking 3 of Puppet's war slots was AI taking less damage from Puppets since he could only damage 3 AI nations instead of 6. 

 

No matter how you spin it, taking Puppet's war slots was no in any way a deliberate plan to cause more damage to AI.  The fact is you were looking for an excuse, a reason, to hit Umbrella for months now.  You finally got one, congratulations.  Just don't claim Umbrella attacked you because that just ain't true.  We were fulfilling our policy of BIBO.  Not performing a deliberate slight against AI.
 

 

The best way to take out a nuke rogue is by ensuring that he can't restock his nukes. Umb ensured that AI couldn't stagger Puppets and more AI nations would end up getting nuked.

Are you saying Umb doesn't understand the basics of taking out a nuke rogue. Is it because it does not support your spin?

[Sardonic]

Attn: Myth

 

Sorry to be the one to tell you buddy but your side's shit stinks just like the rest of ours.  If AI had truly wanted to, they could have come to umbrella to come to a peaceful agreement on the puppets issue.  They never even came to the table.  Hell, Brehon has not been shy about how "Umbrella gave us an opening, and we took it.(sic)"  Stop hiding behind pathetic walls of text.

 

Also it's pretty funny that people throw around terms like "hegemony" to describe DH.  We haven't had a "hegemony" in years, and it could even be argued that we never truly had one.  We attacked our enemies multiple times, yes, but we never had the monopoly of power the "true" hegemonies had in the past.  It's always been multiple competing spheres of influence since Karma.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Sardonic

[Caliph]

The best way to take out a nuke rogue is by ensuring that he can't restock his nukes. Umb ensured that AI couldn't stagger Puppets and more AI nations would end up getting nuked.

Are you saying Umb doesn't understand the basics of taking out a nuke rogue. Is it because it does not support your spin?

 

BIBO isn't about handling nuclear rogues, its about beating people who signed it who left Umbrella.

 

We're not about cracking nuclear rogues for the fun of it, and we most certaintly are not into the business of handling nuclear rogues who are hitting other alliances, we're not the ghostbusters. 

 

We know how to handle nuclear rogues.  Our handling of puppets was in accordance to BIBO, not in accordance of us handling nuclear rogues.

[Caliph]

It's truly mind-boggling to think that a ruler with your casualty count could possibly be such a noob at war as to believe what you are posting. The alternative is that you are simply spinning like a TOP and posting stuff you know is false.

 

The amount of damage AI takes in that situation has nothing to do with how many nations he can damage simultaneously, but does depend on how quickly he can be run out of nukes. When stagger was blown it guaranteed him time to restock nukes fully and take another run. I really cannot believe that you even believe there are enough people actively reading this forum that dont understand this to have even made it worth your time to post.

 

And even if the self-proclaimed elite rulers of Umbrella are really such total noobs at war they didnt understand this, I am sure it was communicated quite clearly over the previous week that the actions they were about to take were unwanted and would be seen as hostile. In fact, I am pretty sure that was the point all along. Why dont you man up and admit it?

 

My casualty count isn't anything special, i'll be out of the top 10% by wars end. 

 

The amount of damage AI takes is directly proportional to how many nations Puppets can damage who are in AI.  6 AI nations on Puppets, if he does his attacks on all of them will cause AI more total damage than they can inflict on Puppets.  3 AI nations on Puppets will limit such damage.

 

Of course high tech nukes sting, but you act as if it'll be smooth sailing once those nukes are gone.  WRC's are still active regardless of nukes, and at some tech levels even CM's can be mini nukes.  Having an opponent run out of nukes limits their damage output, but only by the nuke.  Their other attacks will continue to sting quite a bit.

[IYIyTh]

So we're wrong to say it was all about the Puppets thing because... you also thought they were quite rude? Or to put it another way, it was all about the Puppets thing.

 

No, you're wrong to say that it was just about slot-filling Puppets because it was also your lack of basic respect when approached regarding the event. An event which was antagonistic in nature and meant to be a call-out, before the BFF drama imploded a chunk of your ns and before several government members of Umbrella, including one who was in on the hit of Puppets had previously stated quite openly their desire to cause harm to Anarchy inc. and its allies. 

 

That and the fact that doomhouse's history of bellicosity won them few friends meant that you had no power to continue to antagonize others, and the bluff was called.

 

Take your circular logic back to the moon, where it belongs.

[IYIyTh]

Attn: Myth

 

Sorry to be the one to tell you buddy but your side's shit stinks just like the rest of ours.  If AI had truly wanted to, they could have come to umbrella to come to a peaceful agreement on the puppets issue.  They never even came to the table.  

 

 

So now you're denying Anarchy Inc. ever contacted Umbrella Government about the issue?

 

I get that you're desperate to lie to try to save face (though not really sure to whom you're pleading,) but no one is buying it. Not even all of those fighting on your side.

Edited February 18, 2013 by IYIyTh

[Sardonic]

So now you're denying Anarchy Inc. ever contacted Umbrella Government about the issue?

 

I get that you're desperate to lie to try to save face (though not really sure to whom you're pleading,) but no one is buying it. Not even all of those fighting on your side.

Yeah, I'm denying it, because to my knowledge, it did not happen.  It was the opening your side was looking for, and they took it.

 

And by the way, my face does not need saving.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Sardonic

[IYIyTh]

Yeah, I'm denying it, because to my knowledge, it did not happen.  It was the opening your side was looking for, and they took it.

 

And by the way, my face does not need saving.

I know how they treat you in allarchon land.

 

 

"To my knowledge."

 

Well let me enlighten you. It did.

[d3mon]

BIBO isn't about handling nuclear rogues, its about beating people who signed it who left Umbrella.

 

We're not about cracking nuclear rogues for the fun of it, and we most certaintly are not into the business of handling nuclear rogues who are hitting other alliances, we're not the ghostbusters. 

 

We know how to handle nuclear rogues.  Our handling of puppets was in accordance to BIBO, not in accordance of us handling nuclear rogues.

 

Are you claiming that just because you have an internal policy it gives you the right to destroy AI's pixels or actively interfere in their defence? To make it worse, Umb did it after AI openly asked everyone to stay away from Puppet's defensive slots. 

 

Shouldn't Umb have approached AI to ensure there was no conflict of interest?

 

Umb's actions would have been considered an act of war at any time in this world and no matter how you spin it, thats not going to change.

 

My casualty count isn't anything special, i'll be out of the top 10% by wars end. 

 

The amount of damage AI takes is directly proportional to how many nations Puppets can damage who are in AI.  6 AI nations on Puppets, if he does his attacks on all of them will cause AI more total damage than they can inflict on Puppets.  3 AI nations on Puppets will limit such damage.

 

Of course high tech nukes sting, but you act as if it'll be smooth sailing once those nukes are gone.  WRC's are still active regardless of nukes, and at some tech levels even CM's can be mini nukes.  Having an opponent run out of nukes limits their damage output, but only by the nuke.  Their other attacks will continue to sting quite a bit.

 

You are amply displaying that the military dynamics of this world are not your forte. TBH, its funny to see a member of the so-called competent coalition producing these gems.

 

Take a step back, talk to Tick1, he knows his stuff and would explain why once you run out of nukes, WRC isn't a big help.. specially when outnumbered.

[WorldConqueror]

Are you claiming that just because you have an internal policy it gives you the right to destroy AI's pixels or actively interfere in their defence?

It certainly gives them the right to enforce their policy. Or are you saying that AI has the right to dictate other alliance's internal policies?

To make it worse, Umb did it after AI openly asked everyone to stay away from Puppet's defensive slots.

Oh so they had time to ask everyone to stay away from his slots, but not enough to actually hit him before Umb did?
 
 

You are amply displaying that the military dynamics of this world are not your forte. TBH, its funny to see a member of the so-called competent coalition producing these gems.
 
Take a step back, talk to Tick1, he knows his stuff and would explain why once you run out of nukes, WRC isn't a big help.. specially when outnumbered.

For a start they allow you to buy twice as many nukes as normal, I'd count that as a big help. Furthermore, he's not claiming that Puppets is going to bring down AI because he has a WRC, he's saying that that WRC increases his damage output to the point where he's going to put some hurt on AI nations, nukes or not.

[Tick1]

Take a step back, talk to Tick1, he knows his stuff and would explain why once you run out of nukes, WRC isn't a big help.. specially when outnumbered.

 

Tell that two the two TIO nations without SDI's that declared war on me.