Why the Doom and Gloom?

[the rebel]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1346009979' post='3025436']
That will eventually change when people get fewer and less donations come in. He's not doing it to scrape by for your enjoyment.[/quote]

We already down to a quarter of the total player base Ive known so already lost three quarters of "potential income". This place would of shutdown years ago if it was operated as a business and sole income, the fact that its still here is anyone's guess since we aren't admin.

[King Tarquin]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1346019144' post='3025475']
We already down to a quarter of the total player base Ive known so already lost three quarters of "potential income". This place would of shutdown years ago if it was operated as a business and sole income, the fact that its still here is anyone's guess since we aren't admin.
[/quote]


^this
Agreed clearly the admin isn’t doing this just for the money. So Voodoo your comment "money rules the world" seems out of place to me here. First off I just disagree with it in principle. But second I would remind all of you that when admin started cybernations it had zero advertising and had only a few hundred players. That doesn’t exactly tell me that the admin did this purely for the money. I’m not sure that this was a bottom line business deal.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1346009979' post='3025436']
Again the fact he's raising the donations amounts leads me to believe that donations are not as free flowing as they were when he had 40k members, again that's not to hard to grasp either.
[/quote]

Or it's a way to entice donations by helping decrease the time to 'catch up' -- all the same complaints still exist in other places about how some nations are just 'too big' and yadda yadda .....

[Hereno]

Because there are a lot of people who really like this game, and it is hard to watch it wither away and lose 75% of the players while not ever getting updated or seeing any attempt to attract more players outside of player initiatives like the pony alliance.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='King Tarquin' timestamp='1346030402' post='3025504']
^this
Agreed clearly the admin isn’t doing this just for the money. So Voodoo your comment "money rules the world" seems out of place to me here. First off I just disagree with it in principle. But second I would remind all of you that when admin started cybernations it had zero advertising and had only a few hundred players. That doesn’t exactly tell me that the admin did this purely for the money. I’m not sure that this was a bottom line business deal.
[/quote]


You do know how the current donations rules were put into place yes? If you do not then I'll educate you seeing as you may not have been around then, admin got duped out of $18k worth of donations by a member that had multiple nations sending out CN money, that people were paying this guy via pay-pal or some other sorts of on-line money transferring. Yes that's $18,000. So don't sit there and say he didn't implement the changes because he isn't interested in making money, he made the changes to limit losing that kind of money again. The guy that duped him was on here bragging about it last year or the year before and the post was removed by admin in the quickest fashion (I read it and by the time I refreshed it was gone), obviously he's still pissed off about it. So yea, please don't sit there and say it's not a money making venture.

The guys post was very long and very descriptive to how he done it and how much he made per month, he was making around 1000-1500 a month by conning Admin. He was extremely descriptive and logged every detail, such as dates times and I even think the nations he used to send the CN money out from, he had around 10+ multi's doing it. He even bragged that Kevin (Admin) paid for his university education. So you can see admin got pissed and the rules were changed.


Also sorry for the late reply, doctors visits and military bumf is keeping me busy.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Hiro Nakara

[BamaBuc]

I think my view is somewhat in between Alex's optimism and Hiro's pessimism.

I came to CN in the summer of 2007, and already the game's demise was being heralded. It had been at 40,000+ a few months before, and it was all the way down to 33,000! With 7,000 nations gone in so short a time, it was clear to some that CN was on its way out. For five years since, the number of nations has decreased steadily, and every time we hit a new low we are told that the game is no good with this number of people and is surely at death's door. That is silly. Who ever said that a nation simulator had to have 40,000 people to be fun? Why can't it be fun with 10,000? This is a very open-ended sort of game. It is not the sort of game that needs a narrowly defined number of players. As long as a good percentage of the players are actively contributing, it will be fun.

And with a smaller player base, it has become easier for new players to gain promotion and find engaging things to do. Back in the day, most sanctioned alliances were in the upper hundreds in terms of members. A few even crossed 1,000. Good luck getting into leadership there. If you wanted to get into leadership, you had to join a small irrelevant alliance. Now even IRON, the largest alliance member-wise, is in the mid-300s. A hardworking new member can find things to do and earn promotions. This is no doubt also true in smaller alliances. This can only be seen as a positive side to the game's smaller member base.

There is a flip side, of course. And that is that if the decline continues indefinitely, the number of nations will theoretically hit zero at some point. The fact that the game has declined in numbers is not a problem... the fact that it is continuing to decline [i]is[/i] a problem. If anything the decline has accelerated in recent months. If the member base stabilizes, then we'll be fine and none of this will matter. If it doesn't stabilize though, the game's in trouble. Hiro makes an excellent point that we can't expect Admin to keep doing this if he starts losing money. It'd be ridiculous to expect that of him. He has to put food on the table just like any of us. And so if the decline continues, eventually we'll hit the point where Admin won't be able to afford to keep CN running for lack of donations.

While the smaller game is not a problem, I have a hard time being optimistic that the decline will stabilize. It has been a constant trend for over five years, and has only accelerated with time. I doubt it will just stop on its own. Something would have to be done. But what, and by who? Whether or not there is anything Admin can do is beyond my knowledge.

I do know that there are some things we can do. We as members of the OWF community can strive to improve the tone of discussion and make this place interesting. The level of debate has hit an awful level, though the recent Vox thread was a glimmer of hope, as both sides of that argument made it an excellent discussion. We who post here can also strive to be more welcoming to new members who take an interest in this forum. We have a tendency to ridicule them and drive them away, and I have played my part as much as anyone. But we can make this forum a place for new CNers to be engaged and interested.

Additionally, we can all work to keep new nations engaged in each of our alliances. We can let some new blood move up instead of keeping the same old names all the time. We can choose not to neglect new members, and instead mentor them and help them learn the ropes. Will any of this be enough? I don't know, but it can only help.

-Bama

Edited August 28, 2012 by BamaBuc

[the rebel]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1346152628' post='3025960']
So yea, please don't sit there and say it's not a money making venture.[/quote]

When he introduces monthly subscription on top of the donations you can do, then you will know that the site is on its last legs or just wants more money... Depends on how its viewed.

Till then I see no doom and gloom.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1346276633' post='3026452']
When he introduces monthly subscription on top of the donations you can do, then you will know that the site is on its last legs or just wants more money... Depends on how its viewed.

Till then I see no doom and gloom.
[/quote]

Ahh, so because he already has one money making option from the game, it's not really a money venture until you add more? No!

Again do you think he has this game just to cover costs and purely for your fun without making some cash for his work? I keep asking this and people keep ducking it.


What astounds me is that you think he just has this place to cover server costs and for your fun, what astounds me more is that you must think Admin is that stupid he would introduce mandatory costs to players and drive away his source of income quicker than what is happening now. He's not stupid in the way he treats this place.

This game is not just played by adults with credit cards, it is also played by youngsters and I'd hazard a guess and say a lot of students/unemployed. It's free and that's one of its attractions. By introducing mandatory fees he would be shrinking his player pool even more. Surely you can see that would not be the smartest move for him to action.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Hiro Nakara

[Thalayk]

Well this thread certainly put a damper on my day. I've only been here for a little while but I'm loving it so far.

[Steve Buscemi]

If lose too many nations, I wouldn't be surprised if admin just stopped paying for servers and then *poof* everything is gone. I'd say around 5k nations is min. for him to keep the game going. I'd rather that not happen.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Steve Buscemi

[King Tarquin]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1346152628' post='3025960']
You do know how the current donations rules were put into place yes? If you do not then I'll educate you seeing as you may not have been around then, admin got duped out of $18k worth of donations by a member that had multiple nations sending out CN money, that people were paying this guy via pay-pal or some other sorts of on-line money transferring. Yes that's $18,000. So don't sit there and say he didn't implement the changes because he isn't interested in making money, he made the changes to limit losing that kind of money again. The guy that duped him was on here bragging about it last year or the year before and the post was removed by admin in the quickest fashion (I read it and by the time I refreshed it was gone), obviously he's still pissed off about it. So yea, please don't sit there and say it's not a money making venture.

The guys post was very long and very descriptive to how he done it and how much he made per month, he was making around 1000-1500 a month by conning Admin. He was extremely descriptive and logged every detail, such as dates times and I even think the nations he used to send the CN money out from, he had around 10+ multi's doing it. He even bragged that Kevin (Admin) paid for his university education. So you can see admin got pissed and the rules were changed.


Also sorry for the late reply, doctors visits and military bumf is keeping me busy.
[/quote]


I think you're missing the point here, no offence but I don't see how it proves your point. If I had the donations available I would have been angry if somebody stole 18,000 from me whether it was a money making venture or not. And that fact that he took steps to stop it doesn’t prove that profit is his #1 goal. I mean if a not for profit organization got 18,000 stolen from them you can bet they would be pissed and you could bet they would react. I might be being naive but I don't think he ever expected to get this kinda money outta the game. And that’s another thing we are basing our "Decline" ideas off of what used to be here. If they most nations that were ever on CN only made it to 2,000 and that declined to 1000 I would bet you would see a lot of doom and gloom threads as well. I respect your point and you clearly are putting a lot into it. And are CN's best days behind her….. perhaps but I think she has a lot of days in front of her to.

[Opethian]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1345873127' post='3025139']
Well I've been around CN for almost 2 years, haven't really posted on the OWF but I do follow it a bit. The general attitude seems to be a sadness that CN is dying and that it is on an irreversible path of shrinking until it eventually disappears. Random wars, random grudges, random anything. The problem with this way of thinking is that it fosters the same kind of end it laments.


[/quote]

Well, that's because you've only been here 2 years. You missed the heydays, friend. Our lament is founded in the reality of an observed decline.

Also, hello.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Opethian

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='King Tarquin' timestamp='1346304341' post='3026572']
I think you're missing the point here, no offence but I don't see how it proves your point. If I had the donations available I would have been angry if somebody stole 18,000 from me whether it was a money making venture or not. And that fact that he took steps to stop it doesn’t prove that profit is his #1 goal. I mean if a not for profit organization got 18,000 stolen from them you can bet they would be pissed and you could bet they would react. I might be being naive but I don't think he ever expected to get this kinda money outta the game. And that’s another thing we are basing our "Decline" ideas off of what used to be here. If they most nations that were ever on CN only made it to 2,000 and that declined to 1000 I would bet you would see a lot of doom and gloom threads as well. I respect your point and you clearly are putting a lot into it. And are CN's best days behind her….. perhaps but I think she has a lot of days in front of her to.
[/quote]


Whether he expected that kind of money or not is irrelevant, He still makes money over on top of costs of the server, so it counts as being [i]money making[/i] and again when that drops to a point he's not happy with, you get the idea.

CN's best days are behind her, no perhaps about it. The statistics don't lie.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Opethian' timestamp='1346310037' post='3026577']
Well, that's because you've only been here 2 years. You missed the heydays, friend. Our lament is founded in the reality of an observed decline.

Also, hello.
[/quote]

I've been here just as long as you have. Some of us aren't as complacent and the place still is vibrant.

This attitude certainly doesn't help.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1346322860' post='3026602']
I've been here just as long as you have. Some of us aren't as complacent and the place still is vibrant.

This attitude certainly doesn't help.
[/quote]


What attitude is that? Him speaking the truth? I'd say that is the way to go is it not? Or is burying your head in the sand the preferred option?

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1346303286' post='3026570']
If lose too many nations, I wouldn't be surprised if admin just stopped paying for servers and then *poof* everything is gone. I'd say around 5k nations is min. for him to keep the game going. I'd rather that not happen.
[/quote]


I'd say the Admin probably has a clear number in his head that will trigger his switch off mode. How much that is I don't know, but I think you're correct in what you're saying. Of coarse people would rather it not happen. People still enjoy playing the game, but again our enjoyment wont factor into his decision.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Hiro Nakara

[the rebel]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1346278816' post='3026464']
Again do you think he has this game just to cover costs and purely for your fun without making some cash for his work? I keep asking this and people keep ducking it.

What astounds me is that you think he just has this place to cover server costs and for your fun, what astounds me more is that you must think Admin is that stupid he would introduce mandatory costs to players and drive away his source of income quicker than what is happening now. He's not stupid in the way he treats this place.

This game is not just played by adults with credit cards, it is also played by youngsters and I'd hazard a guess and say a lot of students/unemployed. It's free and that's one of its attractions. By introducing mandatory fees he would be shrinking his player pool even more. Surely you can see that would not be the smartest move for him to action.[/quote]

Nice rant there friend, to which you seemed to miss the point of what I was saying by miles and even put words in my mouth to make your argument.

I said when it got to the stage of the game being on its last legs (not enough money coming in) then he would introduce monthly subscription as a last shot in the dark, because why would he care about none paying players being driven away when its either try that or shut down.

Seeing its about the money he would try that option first than your pull the plug only option.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1346350507' post='3026680']
Nice rant there friend, to which you seemed to miss the point of what I was saying by miles and even put words in my mouth to make your argument.

I said when it got to the stage of the game being on its last legs (not enough money coming in) then he would introduce monthly subscription as a last shot in the dark, because why would he care about none paying players being driven away when its either try that or shut down.

Seeing its about the money he would try that option first than your pull the plug only option.
[/quote]

He's not stupid. He knows that will not work, when his figure of non profit is reached, he wont try to impose subscriptions, by that point it will be pointless and he would probably just switch it off and move onto another venture. And he probably also knows by introducing it now or if he tried it earlier, he would see his shrinking world disappear faster.

So I asked if you think this place is here just for your enjoyment? And not for any kind of profit? It's been ducked by everyone so far. Because he doesn't use one method of money making and uses another method then it's not a money making venture? I bet his bank balance back in the 40k era said otherwise.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Hiro Nakara

[Dajobo]

I'm amazed at how negative some people are. I love the game and enjoy it as much now as ever. Admin is the only one who knows what he will do and to try and guess is crazy. There's a ton of suggestions in the suggestion thread and many are good well supported ideas so I think they'd get tried first before the plug gets pulled.

Talking doom and gloom can be a self fulfilling prophesy so maybe more effort to make it fun for new players and less effort trying to convince people the end is ni might help

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1346351623' post='3026685']
He's not stupid. He knows that will not work, when his figure of non profit is reached, he wont try to impose subscriptions, by that point it will be pointless and he would probably just switch it off and move onto another venture. And he probably also knows by introducing it now or if he tried it earlier, he would see his shrinking world disappear faster.

So I asked if you think this place is here just for your enjoyment? And not for any kind of profit? It's been ducked by everyone so far. Because he doesn't use one method of money making and uses another method then it's not a money making venture? I bet his bank balance back in the 40k era said otherwise.
[/quote]

It's for profit; nobody has made any inclination denying this fact. You keep harking on it as if it will change the basis of the argument or the state of the game. (Hint: It won't. People who pay will continue too; people who don't will continue not too.)

Now consider this fact. I've been here much longer then you have just like BamaBuc (I'll be 6 years old in a few months...) I was one of the members creating topics lamenting the declining state of the game [i]2 years[/i] ago and creating alliances years before that. Nothing you've argued is anything new or even productive with regards to improving the game... so unless you start making points beyond "the game is for profit." you're simply wasting your time on a pointless conversation. Everyone realizes the state of the game has regressed significantly (and has known so for years)...but continually bellowing about it will do nothing but reduce the experience of people who still find enjoyment in what is left in this world of ours.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1346380782' post='3026812']
[b]It's for profit; nobody has made any inclination denying this fact[/b]. You keep harking on it as if it will change the basis of the argument or the state of the game. (Hint: It won't. People who pay will continue too; people who don't will continue not too.)

Now consider this fact. I've been here much longer then you have just like BamaBuc (I'll be 6 years old in a few months...) I was one of the members creating topics lamenting the declining state of the game [i]2 years[/i] ago and creating alliances years before that. Nothing you've argued is anything new or even productive with regards to improving the game... so unless you start making points beyond "the game is for profit." you're simply wasting your time on a pointless conversation. Everyone realizes the state of the game has regressed significantly (and has known so for years)...but continually bellowing about it will do nothing but reduce the experience of people who still find enjoyment in what is left in this world of ours.
[/quote]

Yes they did!

Newsflash, this isn't a thread that says "I get to state my opinion and nobody else does" I would like to hear what you as members could do to save this game, apart from the "keep it politically relevant" Because that's stayed the same since the creation of the game. Come on now, be productive.


[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1346366750' post='3026749']
I'm amazed at how negative some people are. I love the game and enjoy it as much now as ever. Admin is the only one who knows what he will do and to try and guess is crazy. [b]There's a ton of suggestions in the suggestion thread and many are good well supported ideas so I think they'd get tried first before the plug gets pulled.[/b]

Talking doom and gloom can be a self fulfilling prophesy so maybe more effort to make it fun for new players and less effort trying to convince people the end is ni might help
[/quote]


You would have thought so, yet here we are still lacking in any significant type of upgrade for how long?

Edited August 31, 2012 by Hiro Nakara

[Opethian]

I don't understand how stating the simple FACT that this community is nowhere near as active, diverse and interesting as it used to be is me being "negative".

I'm not saying it's BAD now; I'm just saying it used to be better. I don't think we should flush it all down the toilet or anything!

[the rebel]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1346351623' post='3026685']
He's not stupid. He knows that will not work, when his figure of non profit is reached, he wont try to impose subscriptions, by that point it will be pointless and he would probably just switch it off and move onto another venture. And he probably also knows by introducing it now or if he tried it earlier, he would see his shrinking world disappear faster.

So I asked if you think this place is here just for your enjoyment? And not for any kind of profit? It's been ducked by everyone so far. Because he doesn't use one method of money making and uses another method then it's not a money making venture? I bet his bank balance back in the 40k era said otherwise.[/quote]

Regarding the first part, when a business starts going downhill you try everything to stay in the black till all options are exhausted. To say that he would just throw his hands in the air and not do anything to stay in profit isn't a business mentality, many text based websites with optional/mandatory subscription and a smaller member base do survive or do you think we are part of a 13,000 community that if a optional (added perks - extra aid slot for example) or even mandatory small subscription (and many available ways to pay for ease of any type of person) was added everyone would go "no way I spend my time here but I wont spend a few bucks, goodbye and what a waste of years".

This isn't even his only game in the portfolio so what makes this one shutting down and the rest successes?

To your second part, I never stated it was here for my enjoyment and for all we know 99% of those who have left us could of been freeloaders.

Edited August 31, 2012 by the rebel

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Opethian' timestamp='1346401087' post='3026862']
I don't understand how stating the simple FACT that this community is nowhere near as active, diverse and interesting as it used to be is me being "negative".

I'm not saying it's BAD now; I'm just saying it used to be better. I don't think we should flush it all down the toilet or anything!
[/quote]

I'm not sure if there's any difference in activity at all, it has just migrated to individual forums.

I disagree that it inherently was better just because there used to be a lot more multi's/ people who played but didn't participate in anything but clicking / time factor.

More than enough new faces have replaced the old despite the cackles of the long irreverent.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1346444415' post='3026935']
Regarding the first part, when a business starts going downhill you try everything to stay in the black till all options are exhausted. To say that he would just throw his hands in the air and not do anything to stay in profit isn't a business mentality, many text based websites with optional/mandatory subscription and a smaller member base do survive or do you think we are part of a 13,000 community that if a optional (added perks - extra aid slot for example) or even mandatory small subscription (and many available ways to pay for ease of any type of person) was added everyone would go [b]"no way I spend my time here but I wont spend a few bucks, goodbye and what a waste of years".[/b]

This isn't even his only game in the portfolio so what makes this one shutting down and the rest successes?

To your second part, I never stated it was here for my enjoyment and for all we know 99% of those who have left us could of been freeloaders.
[/quote]


And by the ever declining numbers and the loss of 30,000 players would'nt have already sparked that? Nah, because like I said, he's not stupid. Well I'm seriously doubting he's making anywhere near the amount he's making now, so yea, I'd say there is a healthy chance they weren't all free loaders.

I'm saying a massive portion of the 12k people left would not pay. Why would they pay for something that doesn't get updated and is really not that great in terms of playability. And I'm sure they wouldn't pay just to have the company of the swell people here.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Hiro Nakara