Where Have all the Nations Gone?

[Starfox101]

At it heights, this world boasted over 40,000 members. Today, it is a barren wasteland of 14,000 people. What is the cause of so many people disappearing? At this point, I believe we are reaching a critical stage of decline. Something needs to be done, and I believe it must be done fast. At our current rate, there won't be much of anything left in a year. All this does is further increase the power established alliances have over new alliances. Back in the day, a small alliance could prosper without already being established through a merger, or invasion. Now, with few new nations sticking around, it's tough to even stay stable, let alone prosper. Hence the reason why the old guard is still essentially on top here. There are very few new political faces around, and that's the most crucial loss. It gets boring to argue with the same people every time. I know that. We need new enemies, and new friends, and that's a rarity these days. What must be done? Well, let's address the possible issues for population decline.

I think there are a few contributing factors. First off, it could be political stagnation. However, there has recently been a major war, and there is still competition, whether it appears that way on the surface or not. I don't see that being a huge factor. The gigantic MDP web is as strong as ever, but we all know how easily it burns. Nobody should ever be too worried about it. Another issue may just be old age. It's easy to become burnt out and fade away. There are still many old people here, though. Alot of times we burn out, only to come right back and check up, like myself. But, we need new faces around here. Not just new identities, but new people. Real new people. We need to encourage fresh inhabitants to stick around, not force them away. It could also possibly be a result of wars. If your nation is shredded, your alliance crushed, and your facing harsh surrender terms, what's going to happen? While the current trend is not near as bad as it was at the height of Pacifica's power, let's be real, it's not perfect. Karma and co. who promised a new world ushered it in, only they didn't change all that much, and absorbed much of the culture of the former Hegemony. Reps, and long wars are not a thing of the past. Why would we want to destroy an alliance when we have so few? Because you don't get along with them? Stupid. Bitter enemies have become friends, and even if not, competition is always healthy. A world with no enemies is simply not fun.

However, I feel the real problem lies with something our good friend Walford has always railed against. The armies of None have been fighting this war for a long time. Yes, I'm talking about tech raiding. As it stands, there is a war going on over a tech raid target of a friendly alliance, GOONS. Two alliances are being thrashed by a bloc for aiding a tech raid target. That's even worse than the tech raid itself, but that's a different story, different day. If you browse the wars across the globe, you can see unaligned, and new nations being raided into oblivion by free-raiding alliances. Like myself, I have been attacked by three nations this week. It's a fact of life for unaligned, young nations, especially. Do you really think that person is going to stick around? Let's say you've just founded your nation, you've built up some infra, and got some improvements and tech, now, you are attacked and have lost all of it. Do you expect this player to be so enthralled by war that they stick around, or will they be pissed to see everything they just built up destroyed by some jerk wanting to "take what you've got" (Thank you GOONS for that war reason). The benefits of tech raiding are very slim, and aside from just being a schoolyard bully, there is little enjoyment. Take it from one of the original raiders. At one point, I led the world in casualties, simply off techraiding, and it was by a wide margin. My nation was bogged down by continuous warfare, and when a real war came around, my infra level was too low to support my bloated tech. Now I'm sure you new smart tech raiders are too good for that to happen, but regardless, getting 5 tech a battle doesn't drastically improve your nation. The risk/reward here is very disproportionate. We risk losing another nation in the world, for you to get some tech you could have just bought. If you yourself are a tech raider, I encourage you to explain your side, and why you tech raid. Enjoyment maybe? I really don't see what's fun about beating on a weaker man, but that's just me, maybe. I prefer to challenge myself against a stronger opponent. Now, we stand on the brink of destruction. (OOC: The game will die) Not solely due to techraiding, but because we cannot stabilize an influx of nations into the world. However, tech raiding is [b]not[/b] helping, and any issue that deprives us of our population needs to be addressed by each and every alliance.

I understand some alliances will permit it so they can appear to offer freedom to their members. Now, is there any reason for that? Decreasing your own warfighting readiness to allow your members to get their rocks off is a stupid strategy. Techraiding alliances have [i]always[/i] fared terribly in alliance wars. So, it hurts you, and it hurts the growth of the world. What is the worth of freedom when it is at the expense of others?

Now, as the main offender and propagator of techraiding, I look at GOONS, essentially playing the same card as the old \m/ did. Your alliance culture is based upon it, and you all will be so offended at the thought of not being allowed to do it. I know you will not willingly change. Now, then, I suggest that GOONS be forced to change. International pressure is required in this situation. Something has to be done, and everyone who stands idly by is allowing the pillaging and destruction of new nations, and the community. I'm not calling for war by any means, but a crackdown on techraiding. Perhaps initiate certain rules, such as not raiding nations under 100 days of age. Or perhaps not raiding nations under 10,000 NS. An aged, strong nation knows the risks. A new, young nation does not. Why should we show him the door by destroying him? There needs to be a solution, and fast.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

OOC: The lack of game features and additions doesn't help. Literally nothing has changed since I've been gone, except changing resources. Lame. Nothing we do about that though, eh?

[BloodFury]

Interesting read, I do find myself agreeing with some of your concerns. But the biggest question is it takes individual action to promote larger change. Talking doesn't exactly solve anything, so perhaps you should return to the political field and bring the change you desire.

[Facade]

[quote name='BloodFury' timestamp='1334978427' post='2956365']
Interesting read, I do find myself agreeing with some of your concerns. But the biggest question is it takes individual action to promote larger change. Talking doesn't exactly solve anything, so perhaps you should return to the political field and bring the change you desire.
[/quote]

Your comment also brings up a point, in that many of our older members who are still around do not have the same drive, and who could blame them? I believe a lot of the stagnation is caused by the fact that everyone repeatedly points towards history and acts like it's the most important thing in the world, and cites all of the previous dynamic/important leaders as if they're the best we ever had and why even try?

OOC: There are also times where I wonder if we've exhausted everyone who's interested in a type of game like this, and we've simply run out of people. But then I remember that nothing interesting has been added to the game in a few years, and that the game mechanics is the absolute last reason 90% of people play this game.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Facade

[King Death II]

I kind of agree with this. Especially with TE open, if you want war, go to TE and eat your hearts out with non-stop war action and tech raiding. Tech raiders might say "well tech raiding forces nations into alliances" but that is not true one bit. I conducted a mini-survey of why they dont join alliances of the active 200 unalligned nations in CN and of those that replied to me, many said that they dont want to join an alliance because they want to see how large they can get on their own and if they cant get large independently they'd rather not play. Constant tech raiding will keep them small and they will get discouraged and eventually quit. Sure few might join an alliance for protection in the end but I think that losing even 1 nation in our current climate is not worth the risk to do tech raiding.

[New Frontier]

GOONS trembles at the thought of Starfox disapproving, I'm sure.

An aside: Way to go guys! We made it quite a while without one of these threads. I really thought we'd manage to go half an hour, but hey, fifteen minutes is a good first try.

Edited April 21, 2012 by New Frontier

[Monster]

Losing nations that contribute nothing to the community is no big deal.

People tend to mass quit after losing wars. "See you on the moon."

ooc:There's more of an answer. The game also does not incentivize action, so collecting taxes every 20 days and paying bills is not appealing.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Roquentin

[New Frontier]

Oh, also!

Deinos tech raids nations less than 10k NS, and I thoroughly expect that we will continue to do so.

[Monster]

The average member of an alliance does not have any reason to be active unless they want to do alliance work. Most who do will never advance very far. However, it is a function of effort. People who act in an isolationist, "build on my own" way are missing the point.


ooc: and to motivate people who don't like doing work, in-game activity would need to have a greater motivation.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1334979012' post='2956374']
GOONS trembles at the thought of Starfox disapproving, I'm sure.

An aside: Way to go guys! We made it quite a while without one of these threads. I really thought we'd manage to go half an hour, but hey, fifteen minutes is a good first try.
[/quote]
Not about them trembling, or me.

Also, discouraging active discourse has also caused a decline in interest. I'll attribute that one to the PB crowd.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1334979058' post='2956375']
Losing nations that contribute nothing to the community is no big deal.

People tend to mass quit after losing wars. "See you on the moon."

ooc:There's more of an answer. The game also does not incentivize action, so collecting taxes every 20 days and paying bills is not appealing.
[/quote]
You never know if a nation will contribute if not given a chance. Having the weight of other nations behind you also increases your own political power. It weakens every stage of the world.

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1334979067' post='2956376']
Oh, also!

Deinos tech raids nations less than 10k NS, and I thoroughly expect that we will continue to do so.
[/quote]
Who the hell is Deinos? Cool guy.

[quote name='BloodFury' timestamp='1334978427' post='2956365']
Interesting read, I do find myself agreeing with some of your concerns. But the biggest question is it takes individual action to promote larger change. Talking doesn't exactly solve anything, so perhaps you should return to the political field and bring the change you desire.
[/quote]
That may be an option.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Starfox101

[Monster]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1334979570' post='2956380']
Not about them trembling, or me.

Also, discouraging active discourse has also caused a decline in interest. I'll attribute that one to the PB crowd.


You never know if a nation will contribute if not given a chance. Having the weight of other nations behind you also increases your own political power. It weakens every stage of the world.


Who the hell is Deinos? Cool guy.
[/quote]


Well, the King Death II survey said they don't want to contribute. They just want to languish in building up in an inefficient manner and add to the inactivity and stagnation that prevails.

[ShouAS]

[quote name='King Death II' timestamp='1334978817' post='2956371']
I kind of agree with this. Especially with TE open, if you want war, go to TE and eat your hearts out with non-stop war action and tech raiding. Tech raiders might say "well tech raiding forces nations into alliances" but that is not true one bit. I conducted a mini-survey of why they dont join alliances of the active 200 unalligned nations in CN and of those that replied to me, many said that they dont want to join an alliance because they want to see how large they can get on their own and if they cant get large independently they'd rather not play. Constant tech raiding will keep them small and they will get discouraged and eventually quit. Sure few might join an alliance for protection in the end but I think that losing even 1 nation in our current climate is not worth the risk to do tech raiding.
[/quote]

The problem with using TE for war is that is it boring. If you mess up in TE then oh well it doesn't matter, there is no danger no thrill, mistakes made in TE are gone at the start of the next round. The reason war is enjoyable is the same reason why people enjoy jumping out of aircraft, something can go wrong. That is the excitement and the interest. Tech raids in SE can cause long lasting damage to your nation if they go wrong, and that is what makes it fun, that is what give you the excitement, and it is not something TE can ever replicate.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1334979651' post='2956381']
Well, the King Death II survey said they don't want to contribute. They just want to languish in building up in an inefficient manner and add to the inactivity and stagnation that prevails.
[/quote]
Whether they want to join an alliance at that time or not, their presence is still welcome, and needed. What's to say they won't become active later?

[Monster]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1334979973' post='2956385']
Whether they want to join an alliance at that time or not, their presence is still welcome, and needed. What's to say they won't become active later?
[/quote]

There have always been options for people like that. Citadel Trading Company, the Hive, RIA trade partner, and so on. If they can't bother to join one of those when it's a mutual exchange, rather than a "you pay me for protection" deal, then I really don't care about them.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1334980107' post='2956388']
There have always been options for people like that. Citadel Trading Company, the Hive, RIA trade partner, and so on. If they can't bother to join one of those when it's a mutual exchange, rather than a "you pay me for protection" deal, then I really don't care about them.
[/quote]
Those weren't entirely well known programs. Nor did they make much sense to me, even.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1334979570' post='2956380']
Not about them trembling, or me.

Also, discouraging active discourse has also caused a decline in interest. I'll attribute that one to the PB crowd.
[/quote]

Refraining from having a thread on how Bob is dying every other week isn't "discouraging active discourse". Does it not seem possible that if a new nation sees thread upon thread about how the world is about to dissolve, maybe [i]that[/i] might encourage them to leave?

[quote]
Who the hell is Deinos? Cool guy.
[/quote]
Deinos is another top 30 alliance that actively tech raids. I'd imagine that at least a dozen of the top 30 do so, making your assumption that GOONS is single-handedly ruining the experience for new rulers rather ridiculous.

[cookavich]

Admin has abandoned us. How can we hope to prosper if our deity cares not to interfere in the affairs of man?

[Monster]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1334980166' post='2956389']
Those weren't entirely well known programs. Nor did they make much sense to me, even.
[/quote]


Here: you are not obligated to fight for them or contribute on the alliance level aside from economic transactions that are mutually beneficial. They do actively recruit and I remember recruiting for CTC, even.

Another factor is that staying a nation ruler for 5-6 years becomes very uninteresting. For instance, there aren't many 2006 nations around.

edit: given that GOONS brings new people in, it pretty much crosses off the damages they cause in terms of nation count.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Roquentin

[Starfox101]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1334980209' post='2956390']
Refraining from having a thread on how Bob is dying every other week isn't "discouraging active discourse". Does it not seem possible that if a new nation sees thread upon thread about how the world is about to dissolve, maybe [i]that[/i] might encourage them to leave?


Deinos is another top 30 alliance that actively tech raids. I'd imagine that at least a dozen of the top 30 do so, making your assumption that GOONS is single-handedly ruining the experience for new rulers rather ridiculous.
[/quote]
Well luckily for you, this isn't merely a Bob is dying thread, but a call to action. Nice try, but I'm sure cruise missiles will beat me to the punch.

Also, where did I say GOONS is single-handedly ruining the experience for others? Putting words in my mouth. Still up to your old games I see. You seem bitter.

[Monster]

So I guess if you had the ability to communicate with deceased 2006/early 2007 nation rulers who got rid of their mortal coil, you could ask them.

[Groucho Marx]

Hey comrade. How are you doing today?

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1334980626' post='2956395']
Hey comrade. How are you doing today?
[/quote]
What's up Marx?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Wow.

Starfox, I know I have nominated you for worst poster and all in the past, but good read.

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone will listen.

[quote name='King Death II' timestamp='1334978817' post='2956371']
I conducted a mini-survey of why they dont join alliances of the active 200 unalligned nations in CN and of those that replied to me, many said that they dont want to join an alliance because they want to see how large they can get on their own and if they cant get large independently they'd rather not play. [/quote]

Exactly!

And keep in mind when we do manage to survive, we eventually get bored and join/start an alliance in the end. But trying to force it on us at gunpoint isnt the way to get there. There are unaligned nations that are productive and well governed, that carry on gainful commerce, to say they 'dont contribute' as someone inevitably does every time this comes up is just wrong in many cases. (Yes I know you can point me to plenty of unaligned that have really crappy nations but I can point to lots of people in alliances that are little if any better - and they have more resources so less excuse.)

And I am not so much of an idealist that I would even say 'quit raiding' but ffs... 3:1 gangbangs with all weapons free, and even a piddly $3mil in aid denied, even if it take an entire bloc to put a stop to that? Really?

[Sardonic]

You can't seriously be placing the decline in nations, something that had been going on for years prior to our re-founding, on us? There is no proof beyond anticdotal evidence that tech raiding has caused this decline, it existed in the heyday, and it exists now, it is a constant. OOC: It's the lack of new features/graphics/etc. It needs a makeover like ogame had.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Sardonic

[Monster]

Anyway, since some of the things I'd like to discuss are not permissible in the confines of this thread, I made a blog.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1334981044' post='2956397']
Wow.

Starfox, I know I have nominated you for worst poster and all in the past, but good read.

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone will listen.
[/quote]
Woah, hater haha.

It's worth a try regardless. All it takes is a few words. Believe me.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1334981366' post='2956398']
You can't seriously be placing the decline in nations, something that had been going on for years prior to our re-founding, on us? There is no proof beyond anticdotal evidence that tech raiding has caused this decline, it existed in the heyday, and it exists now, it is a constant. OOC: It's the lack of new features/graphics/etc. It needs a makeover like ogame had.
[/quote]
Not on your shoulders solely, no, and I addressed other points. Did you even read my essay? You guys have projected yourself to the forefront by starting wars over raiding. You brought the image on yourself. It is the whole lot of you.

There may not be proof beyond a doubt, but to claim it hasn't happened because of that is foolish.