Viva Cuervo!

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332466949' post='2941913']
I'm not sure what you meant by the first sentence, but as for the rest of it, you committed to a coalition, not to PB. You committed PB to a coalition, regardless of the result of the chains, sure. Of course we are going to be mad about that. I fail to see why you are surprised by the described outrage.
[/quote]

You say that as though other elements of PB were not already solidly committed to a particular coalition. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is they who committed Umbrella?

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332467572' post='2941923']
By that logic then surely Sparta also commited itself to a coalition and not to XX. When the war broke out with TOP and co. hitting Polar, Sparta had already decided they were going to be rolling with that coalition which is odd considering I was told months prior to the war that it was highly unlikely that Sparta would want to side with Polar.
[/quote]

Sparta talking out both sides of it mouth in the leadup to war? The hell you say? They were paragons of virtue.

[Monster]

But enamel, you shouldn't be upset, it was just a pitstop on their world tour of rolling people they don't like! You could have gotten on the next train to roll Mjolnir station if you had wanted to after~

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1332467589' post='2941924']
You say that as though other elements of PB were not already solidly committed to a particular coalition. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is they who committed Umbrella?
[/quote]
VE was on the fence about the whole thing due to GOD getting rolled, I don't think FOK or NG had a strong interest in rolling NpO either. GOONS isn't smart enough to plan anything or have the NS to really sway the bloc, so Umbrella getting convinced to try committing PB with backup support from GOONS and NG seems most likely.

[Monster]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1332467789' post='2941928']
VE was on the fence about the whole thing due to GOD getting rolled, I don't think FOK or NG had a strong interest in rolling NpO either. GOONS isn't smart enough to plan anything or have the NS to really sway the bloc, so Umbrella getting convinced to try committing PB with backup support from GOONS and NG seems most likely.
[/quote]


NG wanted to roll XX and SF. FOK was a vassal state of NG/MK prior to the harry/tromp election and it threw a spanner into their plans. It was more MK and Non Grata doing the pressuring.

I don't really care if you hated GOD/Polar or whatever, but the methods used to achieve that end were pretty grotesque and would be used again to roll others, which included smear campaigns on people who weren't around and outright cancellation demands.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332467860' post='2941929']
NG wanted to roll XX and SF. FOK was a vassal state of NG/MK prior to the harry/tromp election and it threw a spanner into their plans. It was more MK and Non Grata doing the pressuring.

I don't really care if you hated GOD or whatever, but the methods used to achieve that end were pretty grotesque and would be used again to roll others.
[/quote]
How nice of NG to want to roll allies of both VE and Umbrella, two of their bloc mates. What nice allies they have there, with friends like that who needs enemies.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1332467789' post='2941928']
VE was on the fence about the whole thing due to GOD getting rolled, I don't think FOK or NG had a strong interest in rolling NpO either. GOONS isn't smart enough to plan anything or have the NS to really sway the bloc, so Umbrella getting convinced to try committing PB with backup support from GOONS and NG seems most likely.
[/quote]

The desire to roll NpO was not ANYONE's primary drive, other than TOPs. You are foolish if you approach it from any other standpoint than that. There was plenty of desire to roll SF. There was also desire to roll elements of XX. Every alliance was driven by goals that did not necessarily have to involve rolling NpO (which I fully supported, btw.)

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332467233' post='2941917']
Nope, usually when someone has leverage on you, you negotiate accordingly. You don't take some dumb cow position. I haven't acted on the leverage as of yet and I'd consider yourselves lucky for that.

And no, the logs show a completely different picture and I was told by Natan someone was planning to put forth cancellation prior to the twitter thing. Caught red-handed? I didn't think it'd be that big of a deal since I still had access despite handing it over a month earlier and the only purpose was for Umbrella to follow through on something they had committed to. I didn't come crawling. I simply wanted to do anything I could do to avoid getting booted because it would not only be harmful for me to get booted, but it would also be harmful to Sparta and I can't say it has been beneficial for anyone. Basically, it just gave me a bigger soapbox against you.

At the end of the day I provided more of a benefit to Sparta by being there than any de facto NAP with you could. Simple as that. Your opinions on my actions are stupid at best given the crap you yourselves have pulled on me and anything I did to you was entirely justified.
[/quote]

You see, you're still threatening us, why on earth should we negotiate with you when you've made it pretty clear with your actions that there is nothing to negotiate and you will constantly renege on any agreements made. You keep saying things had been cleared up with Domisi and yet you still continue to make pitiful jabs and threats toward us in public. You keep saying you're going to "leave us alone" but literally a week later your back on your soapbox starting sprawling blog posts repeating the same lines over and over again like a scratched record.

It clearly was a big deal because you were literally pleading with us to forget about it because you knew how badly you screwed up and you knew what that meant for you, you even went as far to publicly announce what you'd done and apologise for it at some weak attempt at damage control.

Yes we had commited to aidfalling Sparta (despite being told before the war they didn't want us to) but when you turned up and started making demands coupled with threats regarding how much aid we should be sending we decided that we'd actually hold back on aiding Sparta as a result of your actions. You clearly felt that because of your tenure in Umbrella that you had some kind of authority or sway regarding our policy and our decisions but you were so very wrong.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1332468191' post='2941937']
The desire to roll NpO was not ANYONE's primary drive, other than TOPs. You are foolish if you approach it from any other standpoint than that. There was plenty of desire to roll SF. There was also desire to roll elements of XX. Every alliance was driven by goals that did not necessarily have to involve rolling NpO (which I fully supported, btw.)
[/quote]
So direct allies of PB were the main targets for everyone but TOP, I'm glad not to be allied to PB at all.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1332467589' post='2941924']
You say that as though other elements of PB were not already solidly committed to a particular coalition. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is they who committed Umbrella?
[/quote]

You mean like how XX and co commited Sparta? But that's of course that's acceptable because they commited to a losing coalition which makes them honourable and blah blah blah blah.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332467572' post='2941923']
By that logic then surely Sparta also commited itself to a coalition and not to XX. When the war broke out with TOP and co. hitting Polar, Sparta had already decided they were going to be rolling with that coalition which is odd considering I was told months prior to the war that it was highly unlikely that Sparta would want to side with Polar.
[/quote]
As far as I know, we have no written or unwritten allegiance to Polar, of course we wouldn't want to get rolled for them. It's been noted many times on Sparta boards, idk how much on the OWF..Due to Sparta/Umb's actions in NPO-DH we told RIA we had their backs [b]no matter what [/b]in the next war. So yes, we were as a result committed to defending Polar. Umb's reason for not defending sparta was "we don't like GOD either". Committing yourself to a coalition before the chains even fell was tough for us to swallow, heh. Considering we committed to RIA partly because of the actions of Umb to begin with.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1332467589' post='2941924']
You say that as though other elements of PB were not already solidly committed to a particular coalition. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is they who committed Umbrella?
[/quote]
Good try rush, but anyone with half a brain knows that's, at best, a partial truth.

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332468463' post='2941943']
You mean like how XX and co commited Sparta? But that's of course that's acceptable because they commited to a losing coalition which makes them honourable and blah blah blah blah.
[/quote]
hah, that's why you didn't defend us? You thought we stayed on a losing coalition to defend our honor, so you downplayed our legitimacy? Sorry bud, read my first response to you, above.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Enamel32

[Monster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332468262' post='2941939']
You see, you're still threatening us, why on earth should we negotiate with you when you've made it pretty clear with your actions that there is nothing to negotiate and you will constantly renege on any agreements made. You keep saying things had been cleared up with Domisi and yet you still continue to make pitiful jabs and threats toward us in public. You keep saying you're going to "leave us alone" but literally a week later your back on your soapbox starting sprawling blog posts repeating the same lines over and over again like a scratched record.

It clearly was a big deal because you were literally pleading with us to forget about it because you knew how badly you screwed up and you knew what that meant for you, you even went as far to publicly announce what you'd done and apologise for it at some weak attempt at damage control.

Yes we had commited to aidfalling Sparta (despite being told before the war they didn't want us to) but when you turned up and started making demands coupled with threats regarding how much aid we should be sending we decided that we'd actually hold back on aiding Sparta as a result of your actions. You clearly felt that because of your tenure in Umbrella that you had some kind of authority or sway regarding our policy and our decisions but you were so very wrong.
[/quote]


I actually said I was going to back down if some arrangement was made repeatedly. I said I was going to back off while I was in Sparta, but then you couldn't even aid a few nations.


I didn't think I screwed up. I perceived that Natan had set the stage for a cancellation and I was pleading with him to change his course. None of my actions in that course of events could ever be said to be perceived to be wrong or screw-ups for me other than the backlash. I do not inherently think anything I did was wrong, other than the outcome, which was a rash overreaction on Umbrella's part. You're not really getting it though: unless Umbrella was going to move away from DH and actually send the promised aid, a downgrade at minimum was going to happen, which is why when domisi was elected Umbrella was asked if any big FA moves were going to be made.

You were never going to actually send any aid and Natan made that patently clear and I knew before, which is why the demands were made. It's kind of funny being outright told "well, it's too late all of our slots are full with tech deals," when it was a lie.

This is what Umbrella did after I was booted from Umbrella originally: they all said I was out of my mind and a nutcase. Why wouldn't I be upset? You deserved and continue to deserve more than mere extortion.

I should have had some kind of authority, because I did everything for you, and any less respect than what was demanded was an outright betrayal.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[JoshuaR]

There absolutely would have been aid if you hadn't been in Sparta calling for the destruction of some of our closest allies while holding a government title in Sparta. When government is basically calling for your destruction, you do not give them money. Econ/PoliSci/Basic Common Sense 101.

[Monster]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1332469260' post='2941956']
There absolutely would have been aid if you hadn't been in Sparta calling for the destruction of some of our closest allies while holding a government title in Sparta. When government is basically calling for your destruction, you do not give them money. Econ/PoliSci/Basic Common Sense 101.
[/quote]

I already said it was implicit anyway. I just had the ammo to damage MK with. I'm not really sure how you can say that with a straight face when MK has demanded the destruction of several Umbrella allies in the past. In conclusion: you are being dumb.

Just because I said it publicly rather than telling Umbrella in private that I want to kill MK or something like they did with MHA doesn't really make it any different. Deal with it.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332468531' post='2941944']
As far as I know, we have no written or unwritten allegiance to Polar, of course we wouldn't want to get rolled for them. It's been noted many times on Sparta boards, idk how much on the OWF..Due to Sparta/Umb's actions in NPO-DH we told RIA we had their backs [b]no matter what [/b]in the next war. So yes, we were as a result committed to defending Polar. Umb's reason for not defending sparta was "we don't like GOD either". Committing yourself to a coalition before the chains even fell was tough for us to swallow, heh. Considering we committed to RIA partly because of the actions of Umb to begin with.


Good try rush, but anyone with half a brain knows that's, at best, a partial truth.
[/quote]

Actually our reason for not defending you had more to do with rolling for Polar than it had to do with GOD. I actually didn't have much of a problem with GOD in the build up to that war(and I still don't) beyond taking things Xiphosis said to me with a pinch of salt as a result of the political climate.

So what you're saying is because of some perceived debt which was wracked up by my predecessor, that meant you could go and commit yourselves to a coalition without actually discussing it with us first? You basically expected me and tried guilting me into backing you as the result of the actions of Roquentin before me and instead of coming to me and saying "We want to pledge our support to RIA in the next war and we would like you to come with us because of what we did for you last war" you said "We're backing RIA no matter what, we've already told them this and you better have our backs or else" Considering I had no hand in asking you guys to take on AZTEC for us, that was a pretty nasty pill for me to swallow too.


[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332468541' post='2941945']
I actually said I was going to back down if some arrangement was made repeatedly. I said I was going to back off while I was in Sparta, but then you couldn't even aid a few nations.


I didn't think I screwed up. I perceived that Natan had set the stage for a cancellation and I was pleading with him to change his course. None of my actions in that course of events could ever be said to be perceived to be wrong or screw-ups for me other than the backlash. I do not inherently think anything I did was wrong, other than the outcome, which was a rash overreaction on Umbrella's part. You're not really getting it though: unless Umbrella was going to move away from DH and actually send the promised aid, a downgrade at minimum was going to happen, which is why when domisi was elected Umbrella was asked if any big FA moves were going to be made.

You were never going to actually send any aid and Natan made that patently clear and I knew before, which is why the demands were made. It's kind of funny being outright told "well, it's too late all of our slots are full with tech deals," when it was a lie.

I should have had some kind of authority, because I did everything for you, and any less respect than what was demanded was an outright betrayal.
[/quote]


:qq:

[Monster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332469389' post='2941962']
Actually our reason for not defending you had more to do with rolling for Polar than it had to do with GOD. I actually didn't have much of a problem with GOD in the build up to that war(and I still don't) beyond taking things Xiphosis said to me with a pinch of salt as a result of the political climate.

So what you're saying is because of some perceived debt which was wracked up by my predecessor, that meant you could go and commit yourselves to a coalition without actually discussing it with us first? You basically expected me and tried guilting me into backing you as the result of the actions of Roquentin before me and instead of coming to me and saying "We want to pledge our support to RIA in the next war and we would like you to come with us because of what we did for you last war" you said "We're backing RIA no matter what, we've already told them this and you better have our backs or else" Considering I had no hand in asking you guys to take on AZTEC for us, that was a pretty nasty pill for me to swallow too.





:qq:
[/quote]

Hm, what was the reason for the demask anyway? "!@#$% needs to demask" and when Natan and I lost gov masks because we were !@#$%*ing out MK when they had been far worse is kind of hilarious too and you wonder why people think you're a toadie.


It doesn't really matter if you had no hand in the AZTEC thing. Natan was field marshal for most of your term and he had a very direct hand in it. You had no hand in the stats either and you get to keep them while I don't.

As of now, products of my laborious efforts constitute a good amount of your strength, and you get to keep them, so it's hilarious to try to wash your hands of previous gov actions.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332468531' post='2941944']
Good try rush, but anyone with half a brain knows that's, at best, a partial truth.

[/quote]

You wanna explain to me how its a partial truth? It is a 100% stone cold fact. But your explanation of how it is not 100% fact, could be fun. So.. take it away!

[Monster]

Sparta didn't want to go to bat for Polar because they had a bad history with Polar and weren't happy about the ODoAP signed with Polar. However given that a direct attack on Polar would make Fark go in, they'd have to go in as well by virtue of being in the same bloc. It was clear the war wasn't about Polar anyway for a lot of people, which is why Fark tried to open a more direct front.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332469389' post='2941962']
Actually our reason for not defending you had more to do with rolling for Polar than it had to do with GOD. I actually didn't have much of a problem with GOD in the build up to that war(and I still don't) beyond taking things Xiphosis said to me with a pinch of salt as a result of the political climate. [/quote]
That's as piss poor a reason as well in my opinion. Not a peep was heard from Polar since VE-NpO. And even the VE-NpO rolling was a bit shady.


[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332469389' post='2941962']
So what you're saying is because of some perceived debt which was wracked up by my predecessor, that meant you could go and commit yourselves to a coalition without actually discussing it with us first? You basically expected me and tried guilting me into backing you as the result of the actions of Roquentin before me and instead of coming to me and saying "We want to pledge our support to RIA in the next war and we would like you to come with us because of what we did for you last war" you said "We're backing RIA no matter what, we've already told them this and you better have our backs or else" Considering I had no hand in asking you guys to take on AZTEC for us, that was a pretty nasty pill for me to swallow too.
[/quote]
Cry me a river! You inherit the debt from your predecessors. Frankly that argument doesn't mean !@#$ to me. See NpO-Grub. See NpO-Sponge. See NPO-Moo. I'm sure there's more, but those are obvious examples I can think of off the top of my head.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332469462' post='2941963']
Hm, what was the reason for the demask anyway? "!@#$% needs to demask" and when Natan and I lost gov masks because we were !@#$%*ing out MK when they had been far worse is kind of hilarious too and you wonder why people think you're a toadie.


It doesn't really matter if you had no hand in the AZTEC thing. Natan was field marshal for most of your term and he had a very direct hand in it. You had no hand in the stats either and you get to keep them while I don't.

As of now, products of my laborious efforts constitute a good amount of your strength, and you get to keep them, so it's hilarious to try to wash your hands of previous gov actions.
[/quote]

No, you lost gov masks because you were plotting a coup

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1332467789' post='2941928']
VE was on the fence about the whole thing due to GOD getting rolled, I don't think FOK or NG had a strong interest in rolling NpO either. GOONS isn't smart enough to plan anything or have the NS to really sway the bloc, so Umbrella getting convinced to try committing PB with backup support from GOONS and NG seems most likely.
[/quote]
You really shouldn't speculate on things you weren't involved in and know next to nothing about, because key parts of this, as well as much of the rest of your commentary, is laughably wrong.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332469953' post='2941968']
That's as piss poor a reason as well in my opinion. Not a peep was heard from Polar since VE-NpO. And even the VE-NpO rolling was a bit shady.



Cry me a river! You inherit the debt from your predecessors. Frankly that argument doesn't mean !@#$ to me. See NpO-Grub. See NpO-Sponge. See NPO-Moo. I'm sure there's more, but those are obvious examples I can think of off the top of my head.
[/quote]

Someone is crying a river. It is not Umbrella.

[Monster]

Not even predecessors, a person directly responsible was still in government. However, I still don't think it imposed an obligation on Umbrella to break ranks with all of their other treaty partners, just to tread a lot more carefully than they actually did and actually send aid. A VE-style policy would have made sense, and my opposition to letting everyone and their mom attack Sparta when a main front was being mishandled was the reason I got kicked out anyway.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1332470077' post='2941974']
Someone is crying a river. It is not Umbrella.
[/quote]
oh ho ho! Why aren't you a clever lad!

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332470095' post='2941975']
Not even predecessors, a person directly responsible was still in government. However, I still don't think it imposed an obligation on Umbrella to break ranks with all of their other treaty partners, just to tread a lot more carefully than they actually did and actually send aid. A VE-style policy would have made sense.
[/quote]

You do not accrue debts from war to war. Any notion that you do, is silly at best.