Official announcement from the Legion

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320075713' post='2835693']
There are, indeed, easier routes available. Legion can accept a white peace and Tetris' apology, confident in its numerical victory. ChairmanHal made a very sensible proposal.

Do not be dense, Myth. Nobody is saying Legion should be paying reparations to NSO. However, if Legion keeps asking for more than their political hand allows them, it is going to backfire one day or another. Times are tense.
[/quote]

ChairmanHal is a member of Valhalla not a member of either party involved in the conflict, and has no right/standing in any negotiations between the two. Who is anyone else to be telling an alliance that was aggresively declared upon therein supporting Tetris' hostile actions against Legion that they should referain from offering white peace to NSO? That is what you're saying.

Dense? People keep stating "political hand," like you're all plotting to attack Legion for defending itself against hostile actions in backroom channels or something.
What exactly is Legion asking for here that is innapropriate? Can no one tell me? They are offering white peace with the condition that NSO accepts that they were defeated, something that you admit to in your previous point.

Times have nothing to do with it. Right is still right. Wrong is still wrong.

[Silent Spectre]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1320075085' post='2835688']
The opposing viewpoint isn't that The Legion being in a weaker position on the web makes its demands unfair, it's that continuing to insist on anything other than white peace seems overly confident given the possible consequences (escalation).
[/quote]

See, now it seems to me that Legion was asking them to peace out, and end it. So if Legion wants to insist that they wont demand reps for the simple words "We Lost To LOLegion"... I hate to say.. that is respectable. If my facts are wrong, please let me know.

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320075439' post='2835691']
Well, that's why I'm respecting Legion a bit more now. If NSO's allies wish to bandwagon in just so NSO won't have to admit their defeat that is their prerogative.
[/quote]

Which would make NSO go from fail alliance to EPIC fail alliance. I mean to lose to Legion is bad, but to try and call in back support to help keep your pride, is just a PR nightmare. "We were losing to LOLegion so we had to activate RoK/TPF or whoever." Keep in mind, Legion HAS a VALID CB. Its not any of this "I dont like you, so I'll roll you." Tetris screwed up, got caught, and deserved their spanking. NSO did like any good ally and defended their treaty partner. That I respect. But when you are offered peace, and then escalate because of your pride... bad show.


[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320075713' post='2835693']
There are, indeed, easier routes available. Legion can accept a white peace and Tetris' apology, confident in its numerical victory. ChairmanHal made a very sensible proposal.

Do not be dense, Myth. Nobody is saying Legion should be paying reparations to NSO. However, if Legion keeps asking for more than their political hand allows them, it is going to backfire one day or another. Times are tense.
[/quote]

I thought Legion was OFFERING the WP, not being given the opportunity. If they are offering the WP, it is very respectable. If they are being offered a WP, I think they should keep fighting since they ARE beating Tetris/NSO.

[D34th]

So what you guys are saying is that Legion does't have the right to ask for a simple surrender, when they clearly are winning, just because they are in the weaker side of the web?

[img]http://eternosdiasfelizes.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/and-i-think-to-myself-what-a-wonderful-world.jpg?w=500&h=351[/img]

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1320076162' post='2835700']
So what you guys are saying is that Legion does't have the right to ask for a simple surrender, when they clearly are winning, just because they are in the weaker side of the web?

[img]http://eternosdiasfelizes.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/and-i-think-to-myself-what-a-wonderful-world.jpg?w=500&h=351[/img]
[/quote]

Except Legion is not "clearly winning"

[IYIyTh]

Well, since we're talking about context, why don't we add some more:

The same alliance (NSO) that created a thread about alliances whom should disband is suddenly offended that one random member (and I haven't even seen one mention or evidence of this, let alone someone from Legion's government supporting it,) stating NSO should be taken as alliance-wide hubris? Even if that did happen (again, I still haven't seen it,) I would be hard-pressed considering the context of the entire situation to say that its somehow means the situation of this war has changed in the slightest. NSO attacked Legion, and have been offered white peace conditional on admitting defeat, which is something that has been insinuated that the Legion "should just take," instead of getting reality in writing.

What exactly is the problem with Legion's offer?

Edited October 31, 2011 by IYIyTh

[WarriorConcept]

As far as I'm aware Legion is offering peace as long as NSO admits defeat.

[Silent Spectre]

Idk, I do think they are winning... how much is another issue... but while anyone is winning, they are in a position to offer surrender terms to their enemies. If LOLegion was losing, it would obv be stupid for them to be like... surrender to us now!

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1320076260' post='2835702']
Except Legion is not "clearly winning"
[/quote]

Then why is NSO threatening to call in its allies?

[Silent Spectre]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320076324' post='2835704']
As far as I'm aware Legion is offering peace as long as NSO admits defeat.
[/quote]

Surrender = Defeat... if NSO surrenders they should man the hell up and say good game, but we lost.

And if NSO wasnt so scared of losing, why threaten bringing RoK in?

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Silent Spectre' timestamp='1320076468' post='2835707']
Surrender = Defeat... if NSO surrenders they should man the hell up and say good game, but we lost.

And if NSO wasnt so scared of losing, why threaten bringing RoK in?
[/quote]

Because NSO would hate to agree to reasonable terms of surrender.

[D34th]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1320076260' post='2835702']
Except Legion is not "clearly winning"
[/quote]

"All men lie when they are afraid. Some tell many lies, some but a few. Some have only one great lie they tell so often that they almost come to believe it... though some small part of them will always know that it is still a lie, and that will show upon their faces."

[Garion]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320073146' post='2835673']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc"]How dare you, Legion![/url]
[/quote]



Who are NSO allies please?

EDIT: 39 pages, and counting!

Edited October 31, 2011 by Garion

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320076379' post='2835706']
Then why is NSO threatening to call in its allies?
[/quote]

[color="#008000"]There are three possibilities

[/color][list=1][*][color="#008000"]NSO Lies and says they were defeated by Legion[/color][*][color="#008000"]Legion, Tetris, and NSO simply shoulder their guns and go home[/color][*][color="#008000"]The war escalates[/color][/list][color="#008000"]Naturally the second option is preferable as it ends a war (The purpose of which was for Legion to show the world that they won't jump into peace mode at the drop of a hat, like the entire world and their mother expected them to, which is admirable I'll give them that) whose purpose has expired.

The first option would be a deception as we have not been defeated by Legion, why would we tell the world we are except to stroke Legion's tiny nether regions even more.

The third option is the least desirable, but still a possibility. It would end the war, yes. It would be much more decisive, yes. Personally? I don't have the time to invest into a much longer war. [/color]

Edited October 31, 2011 by Krunk the Great

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1320076750' post='2835712']
[color="#008000"]There are three possibilities

[/color][list=1][*][color="#008000"]NSO Lies and says they were defeated by Legion[/color][*][color="#008000"]Legion, Tetris, and NSO simply shoulder their guns and go home[/color][*][color="#008000"]The war escalates[/color][/list][color="#008000"]Naturally the second option is preferable as it ends a war (The purpose of which was for Legion to show the world that they won't jump into peace mode at the drop of a hat, like the entire world and their mother expected them to, which is admirable I'll give them that) whose purpose has expired.

The first option would be a deception as we have not been defeated by Legion, why would we tell the world we are except to stroke Legion's tiny nether regions even more.

The third option is the least desirable, but still a possibility. It would end the war, yes. It would be much more decisive, yes. Personally? I don't have the time to invest into a much longer war. [/color]
[/quote]


If you're not being defeated why would you need your allies?

[Rush Sykes]

The issue that most of us have is this : NSO is in this war on a binding mutual defense obligation. Yet are being treated more harshly, in the conclusion of the affair, than those who blatantly used aggression clauses. It is all being done, in an effort to punish NSO for things that Legion were too afraid to man up and punish them for months ago when they actually happened. Now, dont get me wrong, I am rather giddy at the thought that this world is coming to accept punishing alliances for crimes committed in the past, that they were never punished for. I can think of a few alliances , though, that shouldnt want this precedent set.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320076300' post='2835703']
Well, since we're talking about context, why don't we add some more:

The same alliance (NSO) that created a thread about alliances whom should disband is suddenly offended that one random member (and I haven't even seen one mention or evidence of this, let alone someone from Legion's government supporting it,) stating NSO should be taken as alliance-wide hubris? Even if that did happen (again, I still haven't seen it,) I would be hard-pressed considering the context of the entire situation to say that its somehow means the situation of this war has changed in the slightest. NSO attacked Legion, and have been offered white peace conditional on admitting defeat, which is something that has been insinuated that the Legion "should just take," instead of getting reality in writing.

What exactly is the problem with Legion's offer?
[/quote]

Not sure what you're asking with that first question, or why, for that matter, you're asking a Goon questions about NSO motives and policy...

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1320076750' post='2835712']
[list=1][*][color="#008000"]NSO Lies and says they were defeated by Legion[/color][*][color="#008000"]Legion, Tetris, and NSO simply shoulder their guns and go home[/color][*][color="#008000"]The war escalates[/color][/list][/quote]

You have been defeated by Legion. It's something even those people whom would love to see this war escelate will admit to, and have admitted to in previous posts.
Just because you are delusional and don't want to accept reasonable surrender terms, (Hello, reverse Ramirus Maximus,) doesn't mean the Legion should be disadvantaged or attacked for continuing to fight when it was aggresively attacked by your alliance because you AND your ally who started this conflict refuse to admit defeat when you clearly are.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1320076750' post='2835712']
[color="#008000"]There are three possibilities

[/color][list=1][*][color="#008000"]NSO Lies and says they were defeated by Legion[/color][*][color="#008000"]Legion, Tetris, and NSO simply shoulder their guns and go home[/color][*][color="#008000"]The war escalates[/color][/list][color="#008000"]Naturally the second option is preferable as it ends a war (The purpose of which was for Legion to show the world that they won't jump into peace mode at the drop of a hat, like the entire world and their mother expected them to, which is admirable I'll give them that) whose purpose has expired.

The first option would be a deception as we have not been defeated by Legion, why would we tell the world we are except to stroke Legion's tiny nether regions even more.

The third option is the least desirable, but still a possibility. It would end the war, yes. It would be much more decisive, yes. Personally? I don't have the time to invest into a much longer war. [/color]
[/quote]

We agree on one thing, this war has past it's expiry date. We disagree on the way it needs to end though.

Perhaps you should just get one of your allies to post a thread announcing that if white peace is not declared then they will enter. It would actually allow everyone, whether they are involved or observing events to walk away with their own version intact.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320075986' post='2835696']
ChairmanHal is a member of Valhalla not a member of either party involved in the conflict, and has no right/standing in any negotiations between the two. Who is anyone else to be telling an alliance that was aggresively declared upon therein supporting Tetris' hostile actions against Legion that they should referain from offering white peace to NSO? That is what you're saying.

Dense? People keep stating "political hand," like you're all plotting to attack Legion for defending itself against hostile actions in backroom channels or something.
What exactly is Legion asking for here that is innapropriate? Can no one tell me? They are offering white peace with the condition that NSO accepts that they were defeated, something that you admit to in your previous point.

Times have nothing to do with it. Right is still right. Wrong is still wrong.
[/quote]
Except "right is right and wrong is wrong", no matter who proposes it. ChairmanHal's proposal made a lot of sense.

A public white peace is different from a public admission of defeat. White peace literally means just that. Legion are far from having achieved a decisive military victory and their political position doesn't allow them the courtesy to toy around for too long. An apology by Tetris and a white peace for everyone else is the best they can aim for.

As a sidenote, NSO entered in defense of Tetris.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320076949' post='2835714']
The issue that most of us have is this : NSO is in this war on a binding mutual defense obligation. Yet are being treated more harshly, in the conclusion of the affair, than those who blatantly used aggression clauses. It is all being done, in an effort to punish NSO for things that Legion were too afraid to man up and punish them for months ago when they actually happened. Now, dont get me wrong, I am rather giddy at the thought that this world is coming to accept punishing alliances for crimes committed in the past, that they were never punished for. I can think of a few alliances , though, that shouldnt want this precedent set.
[/quote]

Historically peripheral alliances have always been given more lenient terms than the main culprits. However with the discovery that NSO gave Tetris the screenshots that warranted the original DoW by Legion, it is not out of the question to demand at the very least a statement of defeat considering their role in this war.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320076946' post='2835713']
If you're not being defeated why would you need your allies?
[/quote]


This is quite simply a dumb question. Every alliance since the inception of planet Bob, has at one time or another, called in an ally when they didnt need them. Almost every war has been exactly this on a grand scale, with a decided edge to one side, but AA's continue to bandwagon and pile on. You know what allies are for? They are to help you kill those you are fighting with. There is no honor, or dishonor, in using them to that end.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320077071' post='2835718']
Except "right is right and wrong is wrong", no matter who proposes it. ChairmanHal's proposal made a lot of sense.

A public white peace is different from a public admission of defeat. White peace literally means just that. Legion are far from having achieved a decisive military victory and their political position doesn't allow them the courtesy to toy around for too long. An apology by Tetris and a white peace for everyone else is the best they can aim for.

As a sidenote, NSO entered in defense of Tetris.
[/quote]

A more important note: NSO were discovered to have provided the spied screenshots to Tetris which was what led to this war.

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320077017' post='2835716']
You have been defeated by Legion. It's something even those people whom would love to see this war escelate will admit to, and have admitted to in previous posts.
Just because you are delusional and don't want to accept reasonable surrender terms, (Hello, reverse Ramirus Maximus,) doesn't mean the Legion should be disadvantaged or attacked for continuing to fight when it was aggresively attacked by your alliance because you AND your ally who started this conflict refuse to admit defeat when you clearly are.
[/quote]

[color="#008000"]If NSO aggressively attacked Legion, where are Legions allies pouncing on their mutual defense clauses? What? You mean Legion's war was a war of aggression (Warranted or not, they are the aggressors)? Well shoot, that throws your theory of Legion being aggressively attacked by our alliance out the window.

NSO attacked Legion because Legion attacked Tetris. That's what a MDP is. "If you attack this alliance, then we will attack you in defense."[/color]

[color="#008000"]NSO knows when she has been defeated, and it is surely not now. She has faced much greater odds than this and lost NS at the same rate plenty of times.[/color]

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320077245' post='2835721']
A more important note: NSO were discovered to have provided the spied screenshots to Tetris which was what led to this war.
[/quote]
NSO openly boasted of having spied on Legion's nations. What are you trying to prove there? It doesn't change the fact that NSO entered in defense of Tetris, after Tetris was attacked by Legion. It just gives just cause for Legion's war.

Terms don't have anything to do with the relative justice of a cause.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320076949' post='2835714']
The issue that most of us have is this : NSO is in this war on a binding mutual defense obligation. Yet are being treated more harshly, in the conclusion of the affair, than those who blatantly used aggression clauses. It is all being done, in an effort to punish NSO for things that Legion were too afraid to man up and punish them for months ago when they actually happened. Now, dont get me wrong, I am rather giddy at the thought that this world is coming to accept punishing alliances for crimes committed in the past, that they were never punished for. I can think of a few alliances , though, that shouldnt want this precedent set.
[/quote]

The fact that you insinuate White Peace as being treated harshly and is a "bad precedent," to set is kind of humerous, especially when you go on to imply veiled threats towards other alliances and presumably my own for merely commenting that "most of us," clearly just want to see this escalate for their own purposes. I get that some of us might have an election to win and have reason to start a war, but by god, sell it better than saying White Peace is harsh.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1320076978' post='2835715']
Not sure what you're asking with that first question, or why, for that matter, you're asking a Goon questions about NSO motives and policy...
[/quote]

As one of your points as Legion exhibiting hubris you stated one random member of Legion may or may not have (you did not provide evidence, nor have I seen it,) stated that they wished NSO would disband. I provided more context in stating that NSO itself and its government members supported an entire list of alliances they wished to disband, and thus found the comparison of Legion exhibiting hubris ironic, if not moot.