The GM's Court

[Yawoo]

It is a rule and the only reason there aren't many examples of it is because we love our pixels too much to see them disappear from the map. That rule is perhaps the one that works the best, the very thought of the consequences keep most people from crossing the line. Botha had to constantly remind people that Botha mode did not mean he wouldn't go to war, merely that he'd fight it using his IG stats. The reason he was prevented from not warring people is because he'd be wiped off the map. Also, Junio was wiped from the map for performing actions outside of recognized Botha mode and then refusing to recognize the wars against him because of an apparent claimed B.M. shield.

Edit: And it was used against Mudd when he was Tahoe, the only thing that prevented it from proceeding was because he made a single post then let his nation fall into anarchy.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Yawoo

[Triyun]

I do. It builds character. You're raising a generation of players who are soft and mushy Kankou. When [i]I[/i] was a small nation, we stared down nuclear states who had unlimited nukes, and walked 20 miles in the snow uphill... both ways! Do you want a CN RP full of people who can't even stand up to [i]Markus[/i]. I certainly do not.

[Kankou]

Markus: There is no such thing as a effectively dead rule. It's either dead or alive, and as it is it is alive, it's a matter of whether it is enforced. I'm of the opinion that you should stop being a jerk and just talk with Isaac a bit by IRC or PM.

Also, strictly my personal opinion: I believe that anyone who refuses to discuss wars before/during a conflict does not deserve to RP at all. If one is not willing to carry out the effort, then they should be like Lynneth and go to their own little RP world.


Yawoo: Please give me a post of the official installing into rule, something of the sort like Centurius did about post-nuke rerolling.

[Markus Wilding]

I've already told Isaac I'm willing to write a story, not a script. I see preplanning as making a script. I've done enough of those lately.

[Kankou]

Anything more concrete than just that? Like, did you two discuss where the troops were at the start of the war, how Georgia managed to sneak that large a fleet from the eyes of the world, etc? If that had been done, I see no reason why Isaac should be able to refuse the war.

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1351187176' post='3045148']
Anything more concrete than just that? Like, did you two discuss where the troops were at the start of the war, how Georgia managed to sneak that large a fleet from the eyes of the world, etc? If that had been done, I see no reason why Isaac should be able to refuse the war.
[/quote]

I dont believe Markus tried to sneak anything. He did exactly what TSS did to Cent. Quit the double standards.

Roses are red
Mud is brown
Shut the $%&@ up
And sit the $%&@ down

[Markus Wilding]

I simply said my fleet had left port at (RL time) 8:08 AM Central time. Given my timescale is 1 RL day = 1 RP month, they had approximately 4 RP days (4 RL hours, +/- half an hour) to sail from Georgia to South America. This distance (and I'm merely estimating here) is about 3,500-4,000 miles. This fleet had four days to sail this distance, which really doesn't seem so absurd to me, and they also crossed several time zones, which inevitably makes the time discrepancy less of an issue since they'd seem to be going [i]back [/i]in time to get to Brazil.

And to answer another question, no, I did not discuss troop positions and such with Isaac. I saw no need to. If his troops turn up in a place where I didn't expect them and he can back it up with prior RP, oh well. It's how the chips fall.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1351188893' post='3045157']
I simply said my fleet had left port at (RL time) 8:08 AM Central time. Given my timescale is 1 RL day = 1 RP month, they had approximately 4 RP days (4 RL hours, +/- half an hour) to sail from Georgia to South America. This distance (and I'm merely estimating here) is about 3,500-4,000 miles. This fleet had four days to sail this distance, which really doesn't seem so absurd to me, and they also crossed several time zones, which inevitably makes the time discrepancy less of an issue since they'd seem to be going [i]back [/i]in time to get to Brazil.

And to answer another question, no, I did not discuss troop positions and such with Isaac. I saw no need to. If his troops turn up in a place where I didn't expect them and he can back it up with prior RP, oh well. It's how the chips fall.
[/quote]

First about your timeline. The time scale reverts to whatever the defender chooses/uses in a case of war and has been that way for some time. However, I think that only applies for in their actual territory so who need to find out what Isaac uses for any actions inside his nation.

As for his troops he can say they are where ever he wants them to be inside his nation as they are his citizens and he can say whatever he wants about them, If he says they were all on the coast at the time of the attack then they are. Cause as you said thats how the chips fall.

[Markus Wilding]

The timescale for defenders is irrelevant since my fleet, in all likelihood, arrived prior to the actual operation beginning. Secondly, I said [b]if he can back up with prior RP.[/b] If he can't point to a post that specifically states where he's put his forces, then I can only assume that they're in their barracks.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1351193976' post='3045171']
The timescale for defenders is irrelevant since my fleet, in all likelihood, arrived prior to the actual operation beginning. Secondly, I said [b]if he can back up with prior RP.[/b] If he can't point to a post that specifically states where he's put his forces, then I can only assume that they're in their barracks.
[/quote]

As I said the timescale only effects things that you do in his nation directly. So your troop landings and such go by Issac's time scale now not your own and second you can assume whatever you want but Issac does not need to have prior rp to tell you where in his nation his troops are. He can say they are where ever they are if he wants without prior rp as they are his citizens and no one has ever been forced to post in any thread where there defenders are all the time.

[TheShammySocialist]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1351188127' post='3045156']
I dont believe Markus tried to sneak anything. He did exactly what TSS did to Cent. Quit the double standards.

Roses are red
Mud is brown
Shut the $%&@ up
And sit the $%&@ down
[/quote]

Actually, I conceded flat out in my thread and in a timely message to Centurius right after I posted my attack that I would preplan with him, if he so desired. I also discussed this with Sarah on it, being one of the other GMs, before I declared war, and she agreed with me on it. In short; [i]there are no double standards going on here[/i], Zoot, so chill out.

Edited October 25, 2012 by TheShammySocialist

[Markus Wilding]

I have already said the fleet would already be there by the time the operation begins. I have not made any other posts in that topic other than my opening movements. Ergo, unless Isaac posts (which I suspect he won't because he doesn't recognize this war, which by my interpretation should mean I get Brazil, but that's another issue) then any other talk about the timescale is irrelevant.

[TheShammySocialist]

After speaking with Sarah on IRC about this conundrum, we have decided to rule that Markus must make an attempt to preplan with Isaac over this matter, I myself voted against upholding preplanning, but when it came down to the wire... the votes came in as a tie. It is thus that we say that preplanning is still in effect and will have to be observed by Markus if any attempt to continue roleplay is to take place.

I know there will probably be a lot of outcry about this, but the fact of the matter is this; as much as Markus' attack against Isaac may be OOCly based and all that, preplanning cannot be used as a shield against attack. The recent case of me not preplanning with Cent before the attack was to ensure that there was basically complete surprise in the action, an attempt was made right after the war post opened to preplan, that went by successfully. Sarah confirmed with me that she believed I was acting within the rules to do this.

In essence, this is what will happen here: there will be a [b]wholehearted attempt[/b] by Markus to discuss with Isaac parameters of the war, you are not being forced to make a script, as preplanning does not have a determined outcome, nor does it dictate your battleplans. Therefore, it is not impinging on any roleplay whatsoever. To ensure that this preplanning is done in a timely fashion, one of the GMs will oversee a PM or IRC conversation between Markus and Isaac on this matter. This will ensure that Isaac does not use preplanning as a way of stalling the roleplay and trying to force Markus out of his attack by OOC means.

If the preplanning breaks down, then there will be a waiver issued, and Markus will have a free reign to do what he wants.

I will also say this right now, Markus, you cannot force your own timeline on someone else, if you are going off to war, you should try to stay within the limits of the usually commonly-accepted 1 IRL Month = 1 IC Year standard. And on another note, you can't just assume that someone is going to let a fleet sail right off their coast and invade, there are certain kinds of limits and lines of progression that have to be observed.

Edited October 25, 2012 by TheShammySocialist

[Isaac MatthewII]

He never attempted to pre-plan because he doesn't recognize the rule. However should he decide to follow the rules I will be happy to cross swords with him.

[Domingo the Honored]

This whole preplanning thing? The most !@#$@#$ retarded thing this community has ever chundered.

As many votes as it takes. It will perish.

[Isaac MatthewII]

Oh so you can control votes to make it "perish" you must be a badass.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1351199922' post='3045196']
Oh so you can control votes to make it "perish" you must be a badass.
[/quote]

Please at least when you try to troll come with something that makes sense.

[Isaac MatthewII]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1351200357' post='3045198']
Please at least when you try to troll come with something that makes sense.
[/quote]
No sir.

[Markus Wilding]

Of course I'll preplan with Isaac, as Shammy so instructs.

[Kankou]

I concur with both TSS and Sarah on their decision.

Just an extra comment: The two main differences between TSS and Markus in their RPs is that while TSS is right next door and stated he is open to discussion on how to get the war rolling, Markus moved a large fleet across the Atlantic (an act in itself which any nominally capable nation should have been able to detect and be suspicious of) and also basically initially said he's throwing discussions out the window. The fact of whether preplanning happened before, during, or after the start of the conflicts is not the issue: rather, how the attacker behaved in the course of actions is what is the main difference.

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='TheShammySocialist' timestamp='1351157216' post='3045073']
Would this be a pretext for war? Or like, a single incident to cause shenanigans/drama?

If it is the latter, it is my opinion that you would not need to preplan it, but if any conflict [i]were[/i] to come from it, preplanning would have to be invoked for any further conflict to ensue.
[/quote]

Not entirely, what I'm thinking is using it to provoke a war to avoid the whole preplanning issue. Either they accept it as an act of open war or retaliate and I accept that as an act of open war. It would be part as a longer run up to war, which you rarely see icly these days.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Two spyrolls please. One for Markus to observe his fleet, one for Isaac to watch his troop movements in response to it (once that gets posted). I'd guess, I'd see not too much, given it's from rather far away, but it should be good enough to get a crude idea of what is going on. Maybe someone with knowledge could tell me what can be seen actually.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/riyIX.png[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/56udo.png[/img]

Also, given Markus made rather little attempts to hide his movements, combined with my assumption that it'd be futile to hide a fleet transporting that many troops, sailing through the mediterranean without much of a reason, I'd assume I need no spyroll to know that something is coming, without numbers and data of what is coming (apart from knowing it is Georgian, given it has a flag). Am I right in this assumption?

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote]<SarahTintagyl> I can roll them...though I believe the war is going to be redone
<SarahTintagyl> so after their pre-planning session is over
<SarahTintagyl> I'll do those rolls[/quote]

After talking with Sarah, the rolls will be on hold till the war itself got clarified.

[Voodoo Nova]

For posterity sake, I'll post here what I was talking to Shammy and Sarah about:

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=112144&#entry3042419"]http://forums.cybern...4[/url] - This post was made at 12:39am.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=113608"]http://forums.cybern...howtopic=113608[/url] - This topic was made at 1:00am.

In the thread posted at 1:00am, there is the claim that 100k troops were already in Florida in the span of a RL twenty-one minutes, without Greenland having the ability to respond to the post or giving people the ability to challenge the movements, as normally would have happened. Later on, Greenland responds to Quebecs move & claim over Florida, due to their inability to respond to Kankou's claim of moving 100k troops to Florida prior to the 21 minutes before her protectorate claim.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Voodoo Nova

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:39 AM

Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:00 AM

The times the posts show up for me. Indeed 21 minutes, oh, wait...there's a whole day inbetween too.