The Treaty of Zurich II

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1303264776' post='2694172']
We cannot lower our stance in the matter Mr Bakker until the separatist threat is removed from England. Be that either by Harland being killed/detained or the entire SAS movement collapsing.

Until the threat has passed we cannot and will stand stand down our military.
[/quote]

"You have shifted the goalposts from 'get them out of Scotland' to 'no until Harland is killed' - if the Commonwealth will not play fair, then so be it.

"We feel we should also inform you that security has been lowered to a skeleton crew around the Pravus Ingruoan base in order to save costs that could be better used defending our borders."

[Zoot Zoot]

Once again the UK goes out of it's way to maintain this stalemate.

The fact is we won't stand down until the SAS is destroyed or they collapse or simply dissolve. If the presence in Scotland is removed or detained, England will lesson the militarisation of the borders, but we will not remove them until the overall threat has passed.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1303267146' post='2694200']
Once again the UK goes out of it's way to maintain this stalemate.
[/quote]
"In fact, it is the Commonwealth who has repeatedly almost violated our borders, has upped military presence against the UK [b]when we have not done the same,[/b] has made unfounded insinuations that the Scottish will not protect their allies from an attack against a base deep in our own territory, and has repeatedly made the assertion that the UK will violate this treaty and attack the Commonwealth.

"All we have done is denied this is true and even raised the level of security around the Scottish Ingruoan base (which, by the way, has not shown Separatist tendencies) and then you continue your claims. Who is going out of the way to cause trouble and maintain this stalemate? You are, and repeating otherwise will not change a damn thing but will continue to make you look like a fool. Or perhaps you would like to leak more of these private talks to your media?"

[Justinian the Mighty]

“Exactly what reason does the Commonwealth have to believe that the troops stationed in the base are separatists? This communiqué from the PI government says, and I quote, ‘That base is staffed by 30,000 Imperial troops, and we've had no communications that would indicate they have joined the separatists’ The soldiers are loyal to the regime you‘re comfortable with. Is there some information that the UK‘s Eastern regional government isn’t privy to?”

[Zoot Zoot]

Your words mean nothing Sir. What you say in this council may be different behind closed doors. As is the same with everybody in this room.

If the Commonwealth is wrong, then we are wrong and we haven't lost anything. I would sooner look a fool than have Twelve million dead or dying civilians.

And do not worry, I will be compiling a report and sensing it into the MInistry of Defence for a press release in
Regards to this ever changing dilemma we find ourselves in.

[Kaiser Martens]

"I am not sure what the problem is in [i]almost[/i] violating a border, technically, every single country in the world does that to one another...almost means that they are not...if it is almost an issue, then it is not one. Either way I would suggest for England to withdraw a percentage of their troops as a show of good will, that is all."

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Kaiser Martens' timestamp='1303270618' post='2694242']
"I am not sure what the problem is in [i]almost[/i] violating a border, technically, every single country in the world does that to one another...almost means that they are not...if it is almost an issue, then it is not one. Either way I would suggest for England to withdraw a percentage of their troops as a show of good will, that is all."
[/quote]

"The point is that we'd rather get them to stop while they're [i]almost violating[/i] our borders before they escalate to [i]actually violating[/i]. And, no, every single country does not - we do not almost violate Germany's borders because there is no intent behind our mere existence."

[Zoot Zoot]

Like we have said several times, until the threat against England has passed, we will not stand down. Thats it really, now, can we move onto the application of Livonia?

[Sargun II]

"The United Kingdom votes no on Livonia's application."

[Sarah Tintagyl]

"Out of sheer curiosity, why does the United Kingdom vote 'No' on Livonia's application? Already we have watched the various countries of the British Isles keep new members and observers from joining what is supposed to be a pact that is uniting Europe. All we have seen in the past few days is increasing tension all leading up for a cause of war. To tell you the truth, Austria agrees with the Russians. We grow continuously tired of the antics of the Commonwealth and the United Kingdom, minus the Russian representative who seems to have a relative grasp of what this pact is actually about. If it is near impossible to come to a compromise and we will nearly argue until the end of time or until war breaks out in Europe, there seems to us little reason to remain in this pact.

Unless the United Kingdom has a decent reason of why Livonia is been exempt from joining, consider Austria's cancellation of this pact activated. The same question goes to the Commonwealth over the Polish City State. Is this pact a European Alliance or not?"

Edited April 20, 2011 by Sarah Tintagyl

[Zoot Zoot]

Torun, in no short definition is a city state which has nothing to offer Zurich. It is [i]already[/i] under the protection of the Germanic Union, and by default, Zurich. However, one nuclear weapon can destroy it, it cannot project its power to help its allies easily, and a Zurich led Coalition would have to ensure Torun will well supplied logistically et cetera because it lacks the industrial backing the rest of us have due to its size.

What antics is it that you speak of? you make me curious, is it the building of fortifications on our border, or is it our airforce locking down our airspace? please, speak your mind like the UK does instead of speaking in riddles.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

"It is clear that the Commonwealth or the United Kingdom cannot get along, the antics I speak of are nothing less than the constant back and forth arguments of where certain troops are stations what dangers either countries pose to each other and the need for security in fear from another alliance member. When this pact was created, we in Austria, had always believed it had been created as a way to stave off foreign colonization of the European continent, to unite Europe as one large family and ultimately a greater force of influence in global politics. Throughout our time here, Austria has disagreed with many of the policies and philosophies in Zurich itself and we have done so amicably and without a great deal of argument, the recent conflict in former Idaho-Montana is evidence of this. However, this internal struggle threatening to break the Zurich pact apart, Austria wants no part of.

This pact is an alliance against the forces that would damage Europe from outside her borders and while Austria would be happy to defend and fight for either of your esteemed countries against a non-European entity. This internal strife must stop. A war happening America is breaking up European consolidation and even if he loses this war, this Micheal Harland has already won by destroying the unity of the continent he is so adamantly against. In my mind, there should be no question to the matter. Harland is a rebel and is a threat to the stability of Europe. The United Kingdom representative, from France, spoke that Harland may resort to diplomacy in the aftermath of this war, if indeed he would win. There is no evidence of that, it is an assumption, nothing more, nothing less and we cannot risk, already watching our friendships dissolve, taking to heart an assumption. The SAS should be vanquished as soon as possible to preserve what is left of European Unity, the Commonwealth's territory of Maine should be preserved whatever the cost. I would not ask of the same for my allies in Cascadia, but they have since embarked on their own journey on the world stage. If Harland makes threats against the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth as part of our family, should be defended.

That said Torun asked for an observer position, which seems easily granted by their relationship of the Germanic Union. They would not have a vote and would be able to gauge easier the dynamics of European politics than simply having to rely on the Germans."

[Sargun II]

"The Treaty of Zurich (and the continent of Europe) at the moment is undergoing an extreme period of tension, stress, and possible fracture. It would be extremely unwise to add another player to the mix during these times - especially since war might be coming from an outside source. While adding another nation to the ranks of Zurich would bolster the defence of a nation attacked, the United Kingdom would find it deplorable to add a nation in the middle of turbulent times and then have it immediately go to the defence of a nation without having time to benefit from Zurich membership in a peaceful manner. This has nothing to do with the Commonwealth or their vote on Turin.

"Simply put, the United Kingdom would rather wait until things simmer down before we expand Zurich. That is our only motivation for this no vote. To reiterate: there is no ulterior motive and we have no intention of using the ability to keep a nation out because of petty politics.

"We would also like to add that Scotland has been key in keeping discussions factually-based between the Kingdom and the Commonwealth even dating before the two unions, and find it disappointing that Austria has overlooked our efforts of successfully stopping escalation between Ireland, England, and our respective union nations."

Edited April 20, 2011 by Sargun

[Sarah Tintagyl]

"As turbulent as the situation might be, Zurich is currently stuck in a deadlock between of a rather bi-partisan feeling. The United Kingdom arguing with the Commonwealth and Germany and Austria trying to help assuage the arguments. Perhaps Livonia's entrance into Zurich would create new voices, new solutions to the problems we are currently going through, this goes for Torun as well, as that Austria would find it acceptable for the City-State to be granted full membership as they are a sovereign nation. In our minds this deadlock between the Commonwealth and the United Kingdom comes with history of prejudice over past European wars that devastated the Commonwealth. Other countries can look and the current atmosphere and decipher routes that we, current members, may not have thought of prior.

As a European Alliance, at times, even new members must share the brunt and responsibility of a tense continent. Surely, whether entered into Zurich or not, Livonia will play a role in our nations for the future whether the tension would, Heaven help us, boil over to conflict or simmer down and allow Europe to return to peace and sincerity. All we ask is for Livonia to be given a chance to introduce their views into the alliance."

[Zoot Zoot]

Scotland has indeed been a key player in keeping the peace between England and Ireland, anyone would be a fool to suggest otherwise. However, the Austrian delegate makes a good point. The SAS, more specifically, Harland is breaking apart European unity. He has threatened war on England and Austria and the UFE, and so far only the Chinese have initiated strikes against Harland to remove the threat. Harland will not resort to diplomacy to remove Austria from North America, and he will not resort to diplomacy to break apart the England/Maine Commonwealth. This much is clear.

The UK is more than aware of our argument and has come to accept the fact that we wont stand down until this threat has passed, at least I think they have, therefore these antics have ceased for the minute. We never made it a secret we are paranoid of UK aggression, alliance or not. Slavorussia, a long time ally of England, Scotland, a long time preserver of peace on the Isles, but it is Ireland that makes us nervous, regardless of the NAP, of the Zurich connection.

Zurich has been dying a slow death since the Athenians left and the UK came together as one entity, the Scottish and Irish representatives dominate this council which the Slavorussians sit patiently and hear everything out before making a comment. We cannot block entry to this alliance simply because we might end up at war with somebody in the future, that is the nature of an alliance and that is the nature of this world, either one of us could suffer a surprise attack on entering an alliance. We will vote yes on Torun hvaing an observer status in Zurich and we will review their status at a later date for them to be applicable for full membership. Would the UK offer the same compromise to Livonia?

[Ezequiel]

"Kind sir of the UK, I do believe it would be up to the Grand Duchy to defend one or more members of Zurich if we join. Mind you, we can and do look out for ourselves in this world. We are becoming a powerful nation in eastern Europe and would be of great asset to Zurich in uniting Europe. We have no problem defending those we are allied to, be it we see combat in a day of allying or never, they are nothing less than an ally of which we will defend shall it come to such a case. However, diplomacy does not always win.

To sum up, Livonia does not see the reason why a no vote would be ample from the UK. The matter of our will can not be gauged by other parties who are unaligned to us. We politely ask that the UK change their vote to yes, so we may further help in uniting Europe and preventing was between the nations of Europe. Four nations can not speak for a continent of more than 7 grand nations."

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1303314552' post='2694659']
Zurich has been dying a slow death since the Athenians left and the UK came together as one entity, the Scottish and Irish representatives dominate this council which the Slavorussians sit patiently and hear everything out before making a comment. We cannot block entry to this alliance simply because we might end up at war with somebody in the future, that is the nature of an alliance and that is the nature of this world, either one of us could suffer a surprise attack on entering an alliance. We will vote yes on Torun hvaing an observer status in Zurich and we will review their status at a later date for them to be applicable for full membership. Would the UK offer the same compromise to Livonia?
[/quote]

"Scotland's representative would like to note that while we do tend to speak more than our peers, it is solely because we feel that immediately and factual rebuttals, however swift or frank, are necessary to contain an argument or a debate early despite what may be seen as the continuance of an argument.

"The United Kingdom will offer the same compromise to Livonia - in fact, I was just about to offer the same thing. With our no vote on membership still standing, the official vote on Livonia's membership is denied. We hereby put forth two new official calls for action:

A) Proposal to grant Livonia observer status in Zurich: Yes, 1/4
B) Proposal to grant Torun observer statis in Zurich: Yes, 1/4

"However, it must be noted that Livonia must be willing to accept observer status if this vote goes through. While we call for the vote for their observer status, they must be the ones who finalize it."

[quote name='Ezequiel' timestamp='1303314817' post='2694661']
"Kind sir of the UK, I do believe it would be up to the Grand Duchy to defend one or more members of Zurich if we join. Mind you, we can and do look out for ourselves in this world. We are becoming a powerful nation in eastern Europe and would be of great asset to Zurich in uniting Europe. We have no problem defending those we are allied to, be it we see combat in a day of allying or never, they are nothing less than an ally of which we will defend shall it come to such a case. However, diplomacy does not always win.

To sum up, Livonia does not see the reason why a no vote would be ample from the UK. The matter of our will can not be gauged by other parties who are unaligned to us. We politely ask that the UK change their vote to yes, so we may further help in uniting Europe and preventing was between the nations of Europe. Four nations can not speak for a continent of more than 7 grand nations."
[/quote]

"You have existed for less than a year as a nation and have done very little to prove yourself in our eyes. It is not that Livonia is not a powerful nation: we do not know that, nor do we know otherwise. However, our concerns still stand for the short-term only. I would like to offer the compromise above: Livonia to be granted observer status in the short term, and after a short while we will pull up a vote granting full membership."

Edited April 20, 2011 by Sargun

[Sarah Tintagyl]

"Austria fails to see why Livonia should be granted an observer status when they have the potential to be an active member of this alliance as a full member. They are a new nation, trusted by the Germanic Union and bordering the United Kingdom on the Russian front. Unlike the City-State of Torun, they have the ability to prepare a great number of troops to Europe's defense, share a say in the Greater Baltic Community along with other advantages to their size. Just because the United Kingdom has denied the membership at the beginning does not mean that minds cannot be changed. Once again, Austria asks for Livonia to be entered in as a full member of the Zurich Pact.

We also vote Yes for Torun's application."

[Ezequiel]

"We will wait to see comment from the Germanic Union before accepting this compromise. We agree with the Austrian's comments. We can become a crucial part in the Zurich treaty."

OOC: I apologize, I didn't see Sarah's post before I posted my response.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Ezequiel

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Ezequiel' timestamp='1303315472' post='2694669']
"We will accept this compromise; however, we do politely suggest the UK keep on the politics of eastern Europe. With their largest area being in it, it would be crucial in determining solutions like this."
[/quote]
"I don't quite understand the statement - we do follow Eastern European politics, otherwise we would know nothing of Livonia. [b]We know that you are a large nation of potentially considerable military power, but that had absolutely nothing to do with our decision.[/b] If you continue to feel like we have in some way ignored or said something ignorant of Livonia, please tell us in private.

"Both proposals stand as is:

A) Proposal to grant Livonia observer status in Zurich: Yes, 1/4
B) Proposal to grant Torun observer status in Zurich: Yes, 2/4"

OOC: My reply still stands. Bold emphasis in particular
edit2: spelling!

Edited April 20, 2011 by Sargun

[Yawoo]

"Ladies and Gentlemen, for the third time, I come before this assembled body and request that the Zurich signatories do something about the English's aggression." He passes out further satellite photos of troops movements, radar and satellite photos of plane movements, etc.. "As you can see, the English have continued to move troops towards the border with the United Kingdom. I think we can all agree that the United Kingdom's Western Region has been more than patient with this English aggression. It's time for Zurich to do something about this. Enough is enough."

[Zoot Zoot]

"Do you want the orders given to those formations in the images? I'm sure I can have them faxed over. There is no aggression, simply preparations for an attack that was threatened against the Commonwealth by the American rebels. We take national security very seriously and if what goes on inside Englands borders in preparation for this attack bothers you, then we question your motives behind demanding the lowering of our security levels.

Troops in Maine, Svalbard and Franz Josef Land are all doing exactly the same things as the troops in England. They are digging in and preparing for the worst."

Edited April 21, 2011 by Zoot Zoot

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1303347952' post='2695053']
"Do you want the orders given to those formations in the images? I'm sure I can have them faxed over. There is no aggression, simply preparations for an attack that was threatened against the Commonwealth by the American rebels. We take national security very seriously and if what goes on inside Englands borders in preparation for this attack bothers you, then we question your motives behind demanding the lowering of our security levels.

Troops in Maine, Svalbard and Franz Josef Land are all doing exactly the same things as the troops in England. They are digging in and preparing for the worst."
[/quote]

"With all due respect sir, your words no longer ring with truth in my ears. My request stands for this assembly. I will await until they have made their sentiments known."

[Zoot Zoot]

"we are liars yet the orders I can easily get faxed here and those satellite images confirm what I just said? How original. Please, use those satellites to see that our entire surface fleet is laid up in port with the exception of one assault ship which is in the Southern Atlantic. Moreover, those satellites will confirm the forces overseas are preparing for the same thing as forces in England. Hell, go the whole hog and give Simon Pegg in Maine why his military is doing exactly the same thing as ours. Here is his private number" said the Englishman, passing a hastily scribbled number to the Irish delegate.

[Yawoo]

The [i]French[/i] diplomat would ignore the number and waited for the assemblies' response.