Hiro Nakara Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 I think the NoR guys are pretty cool dudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1302255302' post='2686675'] I believe we made NOIR to cement the fact that anyone can run for senate I think GOONS and Umbrella fall into the anyone category [/quote] Presuming the Wiki entry for NOIR is correct, GOONS is not a NOIR member, NoR is a member. "Anyone" in the case of the treaty was almost certainly intended to apply to any member of a signatory alliance to the treaty, not just any Black team member. Indeed, Article IV, Section 2 presumes that there will be coordination in order to ensure that the Black Team senate is in the hands of NOIR, not outsiders "in order to establish a stable and reliable senate." Now you can continue to argue that "anyone" means "anyone" and that coordination isn't mandated thus it doesn't matter if an outside party is trying to snag a Senate seat away from a NoR member alliance, but then that raises the question, "why even address the Senate as an issue in the treaty?" The correct answer is: because it does matter. If you are a member of a NOIR alliance, you should be concerned about GOONS motivations here because they are not bound by NOIR and thus are not bound by Article IV, Section 3: "Signatories represented directly by a senator agree to respond to sanction requests made by fellow signatories as though the requests were made by their own respective alliance." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Nakara Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 If GOONS were trying to steal a senate seat from NoR would their general membership be receiving messages of who to vote for and stuff? Would there not be an active current topic on our boards directing us to whom to vote for? If so, I must have missed it in my 6 months with GOONS. Because I haven't seen one. Or is this shcattenman posting old irrelevant screen shots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1302276581' post='2686843'] If GOONS were trying to steal a senate seat from NoR would their general membership be receiving messages of who to vote for and stuff? Would there not be an active current topic on our boards directing us to whom to vote for? If so, I must have missed it in my 6 months with GOONS. Because I haven't seen one. Or is this shcattenman posting old irrelevant screen shots? [/quote] The. screenshots. have. dates. on. them. Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Nakara Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302278651' post='2686861'] The. screenshots. have. dates. on. them. [/quote] 2003 2008 2009. What year are we in again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemhauser Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 No one is stealing senate seats here. GOONS and Umbrella have as much right to compete for a senate seat as anyone else, NOIR or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1302278974' post='2686866'] 2003 2008 2009. What year are we in again? [/quote] What kind of sorry excuse for a goon are you? Those are the registration dates of the posters, not the dates of the posts. Jesus. The date of the post is located in the cell row underneath the post: 2011. [img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-frogout.gif[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Nakara Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302279377' post='2686874'] What kind of sorry excuse for a goon are you? Those are the registration dates of the posters, not the dates of the posts. Jesus. The date of the post is located in the cell row underneath the post: 2011. [img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-frogout.gif[/img] [/quote] LOL that shows you how much I visit forums or bother to check things, apologies, but on a side note I'm good enough to make one of your guys delete his nation :v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believland Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1302064400' post='2685276'] Edit: Disregard. Congrats on your treaty LoSS, NoR. [/quote] Your first response was much better. [quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1302279978' post='2686883'] LOL that shows you how much I visit forums or bother to check things, apologies, but on a side note I'm good enough to make one of your guys delete his nation :v [/quote] Keep representing, Hiro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Nakara Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='Believland' timestamp='1302281773' post='2686913'] Your first response was much better. Keep representing, Hiro. [/quote] I will, always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcalkin Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1302275789' post='2686827'] Presuming the Wiki entry for NOIR is correct, GOONS is not a NOIR member, NoR is a member. "Anyone" in the case of the treaty was almost certainly intended to apply to any member of a signatory alliance to the treaty, not just any Black team member. Indeed, Article IV, Section 2 presumes that there will be coordination in order to ensure that the Black Team senate is in the hands of NOIR, not outsiders "in order to establish a stable and reliable senate." Now you can continue to argue that "anyone" means "anyone" and that coordination isn't mandated thus it doesn't matter if an outside party is trying to snag a Senate seat away from a NoR member alliance, but then that raises the question, "why even address the Senate as an issue in the treaty?" The correct answer is: because it does matter. If you are a member of a NOIR alliance, you should be concerned about GOONS motivations here because they are not bound by NOIR and thus are not bound by Article IV, Section 3: "Signatories represented directly by a senator agree to respond to sanction requests made by fellow signatories as though the requests were made by their own respective alliance." [/quote] At least at the time of writing and signing NOIR, the intention was literally that ANYONE (i.e. NOIR signatories and non-signatories alike) would be free to run for the senate. This was in direct response to CIS's attempt to create a BLEU of their own on the sphere back in 2008 and general fears of black senate control being attempted by any one group. There was considerable deliberations and discussions prior to signing NOIR about the senate, with the GOONland security act and CIS's attempt brought up numerous times. Obviously interpretations change, and I have not been very involved in NOIR for years now, but at least during its writing and formation, the intention was not what you think. (OOC: you can also pm Sceptor from Umbrella, he is the one who wrote it, or SupremeLord, if he still plays, since he did most of the edits, or JoshuaR since he is/was resident black team nerd) edit: I also think the use of the word "encouraged" in "Signatories are encouraged to coordinate their votes in order to establish a stable and reliable senate." doesn't imply that such coordination was absolutely expected. I think we would have used stronger wording had we intended it to be assumed that we would coordinate to keep non-NOIR signatories out of the senate. Edited April 8, 2011 by mrcalkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1302295056' post='2687047'] I also think the use of the word "encouraged" in "Signatories are encouraged to coordinate their votes in order to establish a stable and reliable senate." doesn't imply that such coordination was absolutely expected. I think we would have used stronger wording had we intended it to be assumed that we would coordinate to keep non-NOIR signatories out of the senate.[/quote] Interesting, my read of that treaty is such that I would have assumed that the various alliances would be far closer and the interpretation less "casual". Thank you for the background on NOIR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialCubanacan Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 [quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1301879847' post='2683690'] Well in this case, I'll freely admit my ignorance - you can laugh as much as you like, I won't mind Ta for the explanation Cuba. [/quote] You are most welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Congratz Nordreich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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