Sigrun Vapneir

Have fun on the other side werefrog.

Who/what the Illyrian was and their relationship, if any, with Albania, is still a bit of an open academic debate IIRC. Also, indo-european is a linguistic characterisation, it has nothing to do with ancestry. My own Aesir tribes are more african than scandinavian in ancestry, but not in language or culture, for instance.

Spying is certainly a valid reason for concern and action, potentially up to and including war. However what was presented was not evidence of spying. At least not in that sense. It was evidence of Blackstone spying. But only that OV received information. And receiving information is not the same thing as spying. Had the NPO gone to OV as a way to get at Blackstone, and pulled this out and said 'we know you had contact, here's how, now you need to help us get them' that would have been pretty reasonable. Demanding removal/expulsion/zi of the guy who was shown only to have recieved information, not to have done any spying himself, was on the other hand not appropriate, and rather makes the whole thing sound more like a farce or a shakedown than a real negotiation however. It came out, IIRC, that the information used against OV was in fact obtained from Blackstone themselves, who had already disbanded by the time OV is attacked, and who quite curiously passed on this nugget to their sworn enemies as a farewell present! In effect we have the spies themselves, the actual culprits against whome the CB would be valid, simply walking away apparently scot free, and at the same time someone known only to have received information was being threatened with a beatdown war for his whole alliance! Come on, surely you can smell this one. This, combined with the testimony from NPO allies they werent even informed anything was going to happen, just paints a picture of the height of hubris.

First off GOONS (Goon Order of Neutral Shoving) hasnt reformed. A different GOONS alliance (Goons Order of Negligence and Sadism) from a dead world migrated here. Second why shouldnt communities that have been repressed come back out and flourish when their repressors lose the power to enforce exile? That seems to be what's happened in most of those cases. Umbrella is an exception. They do have the same roots, but much more exclusive community. [edit to clarify goonses]

While the factual elements may be correct, I dont agree with the spin. They were not sitting online ready to do something because they had no warning, apparently. It's not unreasonable to need one cycle to organise - and probably none of them have had to do it that quickly in a long time, perhaps in some cases never. Hence the cancellations in protest. Serves as a protest, yes, has another purpose too they didnt point out for obvious reasons. But it did confuse us a little, and give their late blitz at least a little more force than it would have otherwise had.

A well-loaded spinball implying that we must feel the opposite. Entirely ignores the fact that we had lots of friends involved, not just them. We are doing our best to do what we can for ALL of our friends, on both sides. While you are, as always, trying to stir up bloodlust and chaös.

See what happens when you make ASSumptions?

Coulda shoulda woulda. Fact is that UJP sputtered out and died without the conflict ever actually broadening out to become a GW. Which means this is GWIV right now.

After two years of a terrorist regime, everyone has a little blood on their hands. I think that's at least one reason there is so much willingness to let most everyone go with light terms whenever they get tired of it. And really that's healthy. Those that were just a little slow moving and got stuck where they didnt want to be will appreciate it and move on. If anyone is just using it as a ruse... so what? That will just make the game more interesting next month and next year.

Except that this is the OOC forum...

I realise you are just trying to be reasonable but you couldnt possibly be more wrong. I was there and I was in a position to know.

While this is true, those people have never been able to accomplish anything significant on their own. They needed help, and the people that would be able to help them (I'm counting myself in that) didnt have any interest in it - in fact, up until a little over a year ago I, for example, would have been ready and willing to take the NPOs side if they had faced a serious threat. I certainly had no interest in going against them - I am not of chaos, but of order. They were not perfect, but they brought and sustained order, and their blemishes and imperfections were (at least from my position) rather minor and forgiveable in the bigger picture. Yeah. Then one day they destroyed my alliance. Why? Because they were bored. Because they could. Can anyone blame me if I dont like them so much now? If I am no longer willing to defend them? Their actions have had consequences. Every individual has a slightly different story, but there are a LOT of people that would be devoted supporters of the NPO right now, if Pacifica herself had not been so arrogant in her later actions. Yes, some people hate them just because they're number 1, there have always been haters and and there always will be, think of them as *necessary* enemies. But the NPO are where they are now not because of them alone, but rather because the NPO themselves finally drove enough people that would otherwise have been supporters or at worst neutral to the other side, because they just kept making *unecessary* enemies to add on top of the necessary ones, and eventually swing the balance away from them. Hence why "karma" is such an appropriate reference for their spot today.

Look Margrave, I have no beef with former UJP members. Some are really good folks, and they were then too. But the UJP *alliances* as alliances had been begging for a thrashing for a long time before that point. I spent way too much time dealing with them to forget what they were, and if the war hadnt ended so quickly and so poorly I probably would have left my own alliance to fight against them then. Obviously you arent going to agree with my perspective, any more than I am going to with yours, but understand that just as you have a right to try and propound your view I have the same right to my own. I dont think you will disagree with the core of my point in bringing UJP up though - the disbandment of those alliances, in the end, merely resulted in a lot of former UJP members with every reason to carry a grudge dispersed through alliances all across the planet, which was one of several converging factors leading to the abrupt loss of station the NPO is now experiencing. Imposing the same kind of terms again is likely to lead to the same outcome, no?

Electron Sponge, I dont usually agree with you, but you have been making some good points here. The argument that demanding "harsh" terms (where harsh has very different meanings depending on who is talking) of the NPO would be hypocrisy is wrong. Claiming that is nothing by propoganda and hyperbole, similar to claiming that it is hypocritical to be against murder yet in favour of the death penalty. There wouldnt be anything particularly hypocritical against imposing on them the same sort of terms they have imposed on others during their reign of terror which by my count lasted about 2 years. However, that doesnt mean that this should be done either, simply that claiming it must be taken off the table a priori is is nothing but a propoganda ploy that shouldnt be taken seriously. There *are* some good reasons why some of the terms they've given out in the past shouldnt be used *even though it would be just* because the predictable outcome would still be bad. As an example the fate of the UJP alliances should be considered. Bloodthirsty warmongers, and deserving of their fate (as Margrave proves yet again in this very thread!) AND YET it didnt really work out so well in practice nonetheless. UJP members dispersed all across the planet and became more, not less, dangerous. In retrospect less "harsh" terms would have actually been more effective, in that case and others. A lesson I hope the alliances who are actually at war with the NPO directly will take to heart when the time does come for them to give terms to their foes. So neither true white peace, nor the ultra-light terms that people keep referring to incorrectly as white peace, are appropriate - but on the other side forced disbandment and most thoughts along that line are very poor ideas as well. Even if the opponent deserves them, they are just guaranteed to backfire and do more harm than good. However IMOP forced neutrality might be a better option, if care is taken with the implementation. But again, this is for good or ill something that really only those directly at war with the NPO get a say in, the rest of us can only advise.

Congratulations and best of luck in the future FAN.

Frankly I think the CoC term itself is offensive and inflammatory propaganda. The NPO has been so dominant in this game for so long that pretty much every alliance around on every side has had to some degree a relationship of convenience with the NPO just to avoid being casually slaughtered on a whim, up until quite recently. It was only a few months ago that Grämlins left Q, and the conventional wisdom was that *we* had committed suicide. I think that if it had been someone less obviously prepared to defend themselves the conventional wisdom would have been right. Slowly others planned and executed their exits. I am sure that some more exits were planned but some move more slowly than others for whatever reason... Some people are fighting right now against the hegemony that were nominally part of the hegemony only days before this started. And the flip side of that is that some people are fighting for the hegemony today only because their leaders were a little slower than the pack, and waited too long to cancel their own ties. Clearly, it would make no sense to impose any sort of harsh sanctions across the board in such a situation. Those that fight honourably for a time to fulfil their obligations and then seek peace shouldnt be tormented unecessarily, and it's good to see that they are not.

Uhh no. It's Karma. That isnt a person, or a group. It is the principle better known in the western tradition with the phrase "as ye sew so shall ye reap." Also relevant in these times of chaos is the concept of Heaven's Mandate.

You can *address* it all you want, it wont go away. It was something to be ashamed of for the rest of your life. A "clearinghouse" for lies and random hallucinations? Is that supposed to make you less culpable? But what you did is. Fortunately for you none of the children you attacked appear to have money to spare for lawyers though. You did the latter, and the former is advice you should have listened to... a long time ago. Hmmm you sound like this guy guy I grew up with's Dad, actually. He would cheat any way he could for his kid, just ridiculous stuff, and when he got called out for it he said the *other* people were taking the game too seriously. I'm not taking the game seriously here. *You took this out of the game.*

You know what? This is horse-pucky, pure and simple. Your problem wasnt being a bloodthirsty lunatic IC, that is not unusual at all. The reason people hate *you* in particular is because you declared a war without *any* IC case being made, then compounded that error by launching the most vile and libelous OOC assault in the history of this game on a group of dozens if not hundreds of innocent people, mostly kids, as if you thought that was the same thing. If you have finally learned to seperate IC and OOC great for you, and better late than never. But if spending more time with your kid means inculcating the same callous disregard for other people you demonstrated in that episode he'd be better off without you.

Tis clearly GWIV.

0/ Honourable as always. Go get em tygas!

Welcome, friends, to the fray. We shall feed the eagles well today.

Who are you?

A very... wise political move.

Well done Xiph. Congratulations to Martens.