Notes from Baghdad Bob

Why? DT's in the wrong here, and I'm not supporting them.

You're defending Liz which is the main point. No one would actually support 40k in tech from 48 nations without an axe to grind or someone trying to score some e-*****.

It's 3:30AM saturday night and I had some drinks but you penkala seem to have had way more too drink.

what's this !@#$%^&* about DT not activating the GR treaty but chosing to enter the other side. DT enterred this war before GR attacked or got attacked by anyone. Actually CSN declared on DT before GR got involved, so shouldn't it be GR defending DT? You are quite the PR guy for your side aren't you?

and if you are so worried about CSN's OWF reputation, than you should have told CSN:

1) too not declare on LOSS without any treaty

2) be the only alliance so far to ask reps instead of white peace

3) to not ask for enormous reps

4) to not ask DT's top layer to pay that huge amount

I have seen CSN members to post their disagreement about their leadership, I have seen DT-haters supporting DT in this, I have seen your allies and even people from your own alliance to support DT in this, I have seen a !@#$ load of neutrals choose DT's side. Thank God that you are here to tell us that DT deserves these or even higher reps because people may have thought otherwise if you weren't here to show us the light with your moronic arguments.

If there is anyone coming close to deserving to pay 40K reps than it's CSN because of their pathetic attack on LoSS with any treaty chain and without a real CB. Hell and even they shouldn't pay the tech with their 2ktech+ nations

CSN is an alliance that I hold in high regard and I will not be adjusting that opinion until this is concluded. This blog sure as hell isn't helping them though.

Also: you wrote an apology into the terms as an opportunity to restore their image? Really? I cannot imagine any thought process where that seems reasonable and in the logs it looks like a backpedal.

I suggested it due to the amount of allies and non-allies that have been disgusted with the reps CSN was trying to issue out. With the screenshots that were posted on OWF showing their own members issues with their gov's actions. I gave them away to step up out of the mess they were putting themselves in. If they didn't want to take that fine. We had no issues with them dropping it from what we suggested cause in the end all that really mattered was the White Peace offer and if they didn't like that they were given the opportunity to better the offer that sides could agree on, but didn't do that either.

Penkala, you're the worst. Seriously, every time you type, you get destroyed. Your arguments hold no water.

You know, DT actually considered not bringing this up on the OWF because it would be counter-intuitive to make CSN look any worse, if possible. Thanks for the assist, Penkala.

DT not being truthful? You snipped all the logs. MyWorld posted the full logs. BUSTED.

Professionalism? We approached the talks in a mature manner. I asked Liz no less than 3 times to be mature during talks...she continued to act like Courtney Love. BUSTED. (ps: Liz, lrn2MOFA.)

DT asked CSN to surrender? We proposed white peace and an optional apology as an opportunity for CSN to save face. BUSTED.

Let 2 truths be known:

1) We made CSN a counter-offer. They walked away from talks and gave no indication that they would be considering it. This is fully documented in the logs. DT naturally assumed they were turning it down and removed the counter-offer from the table. Largely because of Point #2.

2) CSN's chances of receiving 40k diminish day by day. Everyday, DT's resolve grows stronger and our allies, friends, non-allies, etc continue to support us in our resistance to these terms, which are as unjust as they are unjustifiable. CSN's general membership are realizing that these terms are antithetical to their values as an alliance and they deserve praise for that.

Anything else, Penkala? No? Well, when you're ready to put your big boy pants on, let us know. Until then, it goes on.

Why? DT's in the wrong here, and I'm not supporting them.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha. you have yet to prove !@#$. just stop. you are the one that is now smearing CSN's name through the mud. and to boot, all you are doing is omitting information, lying, spinning, and ignoring. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that this is what you are doing as your arguments have been destroyed by many. yet you continue in your ignorance to spout the same !@#$ over and over cuz you somehow think that by repeating it over and over, it makes it true.

frankly, given your kind of support i am glad you don't support us. otherwise, you would be doing to us what you are doing to CSN. please keep it up cuz with you, DT does not need to say a thing about CSN. you are doing a wonderful job of smearing CSN's reputation even further than they have already done so on their own.

lol Penkala. Just give up now. You're not winning this one. Cut your losses and move on.

You know that part in "Swingers" where Jon Favreau keeps calling that girl he just got the phone number from...where you find yourself screaming at the screen to tell him to STOP CALLING...STOP TALKING....

This reminds me of that and Penkala. Dude just stop. It's painful.

Listen, it's a really basic thought. CSN won't be getting that tech. It's just not going to happen. Simultaneously, they will never offer white peace no matter how many CSN govt get ZI'd or how much NS they lose to a smaller alliance. CSN govt has demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that they have no problem throwing their general membership in the fire. Their egos will simply not allow them to realize their failure.

DT offered white peace because we are the only ones that can bring it up. CSN govt has refused this option...stupidly so, I might add.

As such, CSN continues to represent an existential threat to DT. I've said it before - CSN's general membership knows how to make this stop. Depose of this trash you call government and seize leadership. Your government has failed you.

So DT was that butthurt about CSN walking out that they refused to accept the terms that they were originally ok with?

So DT was that butthurt about CSN walking out that they refused to accept the terms that they were originally ok with?

Read the logs, you'll see Goose says himself that the terms were never agreed upon. Myworld pointed that out on page 1.

Nah, more like CSN govt couldn't seize an opportunity when they saw it. So the offer is off the table now. Better luck next time.

Also, Liz: lrn2MOFA.

You know that part in "Swingers"

VI would be proud of you.

I think that VE's STASI enforcers need to come to the realization that if they want out of the war they're not getting paid to leave except in blood and vinegar. If CSN is done, then walk away.

Sure you can 'unrefuse' an offer... why not?

Just saw this now.

No, you can't, you !@#$@#$ idiot. We took it off the table. It's gone. Tough !@#$.

CSN - Whatever you're paying this clown, you're not getting your money's worth.

I've had my issues with Myworld in the past (hi there mr. bubblegum) but this one really takes the cake, and for once I find myself completely agreeing with his position. Surrender term offers do not survive the end of negotiations, unless one of the parties specifically says otherwise. If you want a deal someone else offered you, you had better get it done by update the night it's offered, because it won't be around in 24 hours.

I'd say that when one side has to apologize to the other, that's a surrender.

No, an apology is not a surrender.

A surrender is where one side lays down its arms and ceases hostilities. In the real world, where surrenders are fairly rare (most wars end in armistices, not surrenders) normally they are followed by periods of occupation. In CN, where occupation is impossible, the closest equivalent are demilitarization and no re-entry terms.

Penkala, I think it's funny that you insist on making the same points over and over again despite their having been quite clearly refuted in the logs.

No matter, really. You must already know that you have very little credibility outside your own alliance.

The fact is that CSN is attempting to extort 40,000 Tech from the Dark Templar on the grounds that "DT entered as a result of an ODP."

And that's it. The sole reason DT is being asked to fork over 40,000 Tech is that they honored a treaty.

It really doesn't matter who said or did what in negotiations. The fact is that CSN's demand is ridiculous on the face of it.

That is not nearly the sole reason. It's not even the main reason. The main reason is that DT attacked during peace negotiations (and in case you're curious no, LoSS was not asked to pay reps). Next you have that they attacked Legacy looking for an easy fight, then tried to back out after we made it clear we wouldn't let them do that. Then of course there's the complete refusal to negotiate in good faith (which is admittedly a new issue).

The ODP is more of a capstone on all that.

I think that VE's STASI enforcers need to come to the realization that if they want out of the war they're not getting paid to leave except in blood and vinegar. If CSN is done, then walk away.

We're not done. We're not even close to satisfied, DT can burn by paying reps or they can burn in a war, either way they don't get to walk away from this intact.

We're not done. We're not even close to satisfied, DT can burn by paying reps or they can burn in a war, either way they don't get to walk away from this intact.

Dig two graves.

That is not nearly the sole reason. It's not even the main reason. The main reason is that DT attacked during peace negotiations (and in case you're curious no, LoSS was not asked to pay reps). Next you have that they attacked Legacy looking for an easy fight, then tried to back out after we made it clear we wouldn't let them do that. Then of course there's the complete refusal to negotiate in good faith (which is admittedly a new issue).

The ODP is more of a capstone on all that.

You're clearly misled, uninformed or plain stupid. We attacked after LoSS greenlighted us saying that they had no intention of agreeing to peace while TIO was still in the war. We chose Legacy because that's who their guys were having the most trouble matching up with. All of this is established fact. When we "tried to back out" it was because the TIO front had closed and there was no more reason to fight. It was not because we are afraid nor is it because we feel that we are being beaten. Oh, and as far as negotiating in good faith, I'd suggest that you relearn basic reading comprehension, because Liz's hissy fits show a lot worse faith than any of the polite negotiating on the part of DT that occurred throughout this event.

Then again, considering that you think honoring an ODP merits the placement of harsh reps, I am not particularly surprised that your void of a brain was open for your government to fill with half-truths and propaganda.

That is not nearly the sole reason. It's not even the main reason. The main reason is that DT attacked during peace negotiations (and in case you're curious no, LoSS was not asked to pay reps). Next you have that they attacked Legacy looking for an easy fight, then tried to back out after we made it clear we wouldn't let them do that. Then of course there's the complete refusal to negotiate in good faith (which is admittedly a new issue).

The ODP is more of a capstone on all that.

Anybody who is even remotely involved in this nonsense knows that this is a pack of lies.

If any of the above were indeed relevant, they would have been mentioned at the time I made inquiries regarding CSN's demands. They were not.

I therefore conclude that you are a liar in an alliance filled with them.

Dig two graves.

They're too busy digging a hole of another kind right now.

An 8% drop in membership and a 30% drop in NS in the last 12-13 days means that they'll need to start recruiting ghosts from various allies, a practice which is more widespread in this war than perhaps any other I've seen.

Only when you're on the larger side. Had it been DT who refused an offer, only later to accept, you'd be doing it. Believe me, you'd be telling them it doesn't work that way.

No... I'm fairly sure DT, even AFTER all this, still has a right to "un-refuse" their offer and accept the terms. So you're incorrect.

No, you can't, you !@#$@#$ idiot. We took it off the table. It's gone. Tough !@#$.

Settle down, dude. It's just a game. And yes, I realize that you took it off the table. For now, the only terms available to DT are the full 40k tech, I believe.

Read the logs, you'll see Goose says himself that the terms were never agreed upon. Myworld pointed that out on page 1.

Please stop lying. The logs are posted right in the thread. The terms WERE agreed upon -- a mere 30 hours after they were put on the table. Don't say they were "never agreed upon" because that's a lie. Yes, what Sir William said is exactly what happened. DT turned down reps they were fine paying just one day earlier, and refused to negotiate in any reasonable fashion. *DT* cut off reps negotiations, not CSN, by refusing to come anywhere near the discussed numbers.

Also, Liz: lrn2MOFA.

She's not trying to establish any relations with you or work with you anymore, so why should she be polite? If you guys are going to refuse to show any respect to CSN, they will show you no respect. Deal with it. And stop crying about it.

First, I've seen the logs. DT in no way acted like children.

No, they've acted like children in other ways.

what's this !@#$%^&* about DT not activating the GR treaty but chosing to enter the other side. DT enterred this war before GR attacked or got attacked by anyone. Actually CSN declared on DT before GR got involved, so shouldn't it be GR defending DT? You are quite the PR guy for your side aren't you?

Oh PLEASE. It was QUITE clear that GR would be on our side. The point is, there are more of DT's allies on our side, and DT knew it. They chose to *disregard this* and join the war not to defend allies (which would have landed them on OUR side of the war) but to take a pot shot at our side of the war.

Anyone who thought GR would remain neutral is not worthy of discussing this topic with me and should exit my blog immediately.

and if you are so worried about CSN's OWF reputation, than you should have told CSN:

1) too not declare on LOSS without any treaty

2) be the only alliance so far to ask reps instead of white peace

3) to not ask for enormous reps

4) to not ask DT's top layer to pay that huge amount

1) I believe they had a treaty chain that fell through at the last moment, but I'm not sure about the details.

2) So what? DT attacked the side treaties obligated it to defend. Based on a color treaty. Sucks for DT!

3) The reps are not 'enormous' and DT was willing and able to pay them.

4) CSN was only asking 10k from DT in total, and 30k from any other source. No stipulation upon who from the alliance can pay them.

I gave them away to step up out of the mess they were putting themselves in. If they didn't want to take that fine. We had no issues with them dropping it from what we suggested cause in the end all that really mattered was the White Peace offer and if they didn't like that they were given the opportunity to better the offer that sides could agree on, but didn't do that either.

No, you wanted CSN to surrender to you but quickly realized that wouldn't fly, so you backpedaled. It wasn't your place to 'help them out' by 'suggesting an apology'. Please stop insulting the world's intelligence.

Penkala, you're the worst. Seriously, every time you type, you get destroyed. Your arguments hold no water.

My arguments are getting destroyed? HAHAHAHA. The only thing that got destroyed is the public perception that DT is offering CSN 40k tech, but in a different payment plan than what CSN wants, so the mean 'ol CSN is keeping them at war. A perception you were all too happy to keep, even after CSN accepted your counter offer and you withdrew it. The only thing that's getting destroyed here is the image of DT being a victim. You're ONLY in this war because you're offering 'white peace' as a counter-term to CSN. You could have left at any time with much lighter reps had you not been the worst negotiators on earth. You could have offered CSN 30k tech that night rather than 40 and they probably would have taken it.

I did what I set out to do: Correct the lies DT's been feeding people. I know that this makes me 'The worst' in your eyes, but really, I don't care.

You know, DT actually considered not bringing this up on the OWF because it would be counter-intuitive to make CSN look any worse, if possible. Thanks for the assist, Penkala.

No, you didn't bring it up on the OWF, because you had the world thinking CSN refused to accept your slightly modified 40k tech terms. And you were happy that people thought that. If you had brought these logs up, you'd have shown the world that was simply not the case.

DT not being truthful? You snipped all the logs. MyWorld posted the full logs. BUSTED.

I didn't want to make too big of a wall of text. So I snipped them.

I've had this challenge out there for a while: Prove that the shortened logs I provided do not tell the tale of why the terms were rejected by DT in any substantial way.

Otherwise, drop with the 'SHORTENED LOGS' line. If there was no substantial impact of shortening the logs, then it's a moot point.

On professionalism, I handled this. What do you expect after a couple weeks of DT's !@#$%^&*?

As far as your two truths. After you put those terms on the table, did you ever notify CSN that you were taking them OFF the table? No? Yeah...

2) CSN's chances of receiving 40k diminish day by day.

CSN doesn't WANT 40k tech anymore. And you're not going to pay it. So they'll continue to fight you longer, and accept a lower amount of terms at a later date, most likely.

Or they can keep you in war forever until you agree to 40k tech. That's their right, too.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha. you have yet to prove !@#$. just stop. you are the one that is now smearing CSN's name through the mud. and to boot, all you are doing is omitting information, lying, spinning, and ignoring. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that this is what you are doing as your arguments have been destroyed by many.

I've proven a lot, actually. That CSN was willing to negotiate. That CSN was willing to accept your counter term. And that you were being unreasonable in counter-offers.

And you realize that I'm not in CSN, right?

Also, I haven't omitted any relevant info. Not one piece of it. Nor am I lying. In fact, the only lies thus far have come from DT. In this blog they still refuse to accept that CSN accepted the terms, even though the logs clearly show that they did. Also, there are the obvious lies of omission. You were keeping CN updated daily. Until your last update, which was that CSN turned down 40k tech in reps. You never bothered to correct that, because that public perception helped you out. I'm not ignoring anything, and if by 'spinning' you mean 'presenting the facts, which happen to favor CSN', then sure, I'm 'spinning'. Nobody has destroyed any of my arguments, much less my main arguments: That DT has purposely not let the world know where the negotiations stand for the PR benefit, That DT is refusing to negotiate in good faith, AND that CSN accepted terms proposed *by DT* a day after they were proposed, only to be turned down.

P.S. I love you all telling me to stop talking. You know I'll never do that. Regardless, if you don't like my arguments, just look at the facts I've brought in via the OP. That's all that really needs to be said. DT wanted everyone to think that they were offering CSN 40k tech, but CSN was refusing. The simple fact is that CSN's willing to negotiate, DT is not, so DT burns.

P.S. I love you all telling me to stop talking. You know I'll never do that. Regardless, if you don't like my arguments, just look at the facts I've brought in via the OP. That's all that really needs to be said. DT wanted everyone to think that they were offering CSN 40k tech, but CSN was refusing. The simple fact is that CSN's willing to negotiate, DT is not, so DT burns.

Negotiating means finding a middle ground. No middle ground has been established since they don't know how to negotiate.

The trail of offers:

Theirs:

1. 40k paid by your nations with 2k+ over 3 months

Our response:

A. White Peace

Theirs:

2. Back to #1

Ours:

B. 30k by anyone, 10k purchased by anyone in DT and sent to CSN over 6 months.

Theirs:

3. 30k by anyone, 10k from DT by 2k+ tech nations.

Ours:

C: Back to B

Theres:

4. Crickets and walks away. No word of we're going to talk about it. Walking away without saying anything = NO and refusal of agreement. As has been verified by the logs by GOOSE's own words.

Ours:

D: We take it off the table as we considered the offer voided when they did #4. We don't offer the same deal again.

Theirs:

5. We talked to our allies and we want to accept, but we failed to tell you we were going to discuss it or ask you if it was still a valid deal.

Ours:

E: Here's the new offer since you walked away: White Peace, optional apology to "Everyone" still at war in this mess not just DT but to CSN's allies and friends. It's well known that their allies are pissed over their actions. We were giving them away to start being a bigger person then what their actions had been to that point. If they didn't want to accept doing the apology then it was clearly stated they didn't have to do it. White Peace was the only thing that matter in the term.

Theirs:

6. Liz F bombs. They walk away even after being asked by DT to find a counter offer between what they walked way back in #4.

Ours:

F: White Peace is on the table. CSN just has to either accept it or come up with another that is better than the one offered in "B" that they walked away from.

--

As you can see we made our attempts to find middle ground. Where did CSN make that attempt? Oh that's right they agreed to an agreement that we suggested in finding middle ground and was voided by walking away from. So if CSN is so willing to negotiate then where are the offers that would bring us closer to an agreement from both parties?

That is not nearly the sole reason. It's not even the main reason. The main reason is that DT attacked during peace negotiations (and in case you're curious no, LoSS was not asked to pay reps). Next you have that they attacked Legacy looking for an easy fight, then tried to back out after we made it clear we wouldn't let them do that. Then of course there's the complete refusal to negotiate in good faith (which is admittedly a new issue).

The ODP is more of a capstone on all that.

actually Goose has already stated (in the RnR DoW thread) that there were no peace talks going on between LoSS and CSN when DT hit. so can we please stop spreading this falsity around.

DT has been the only one actually attempting to negotiate in good faith. have you not read the logs? it is CSN who were the ones that at first refused to negotiate and then after 30 hours of refusing a counter-offer, accepted said offer and then threw a temper tantrum when DT stated that once the counter offer was refused initially, it was taken off the table.

you are even funnier than PenkLOLa.

Oh PLEASE. It was QUITE clear that GR would be on our side. The point is, there are more of DT's allies on our side, and DT knew it. They chose to *disregard this* and join the war not to defend allies (which would have landed them on OUR side of the war) but to take a pot shot at our side of the war.

Anyone who thought GR would remain neutral is not worthy of discussing this topic with me and should exit my blog immediately.

considering what you believe is true, that last sentence is a whoot. all i read in that statement you quoted was GR was not involved in the war prior to DT entering. and i am glad to see you failed to reply to my post where i already destroyed your "DT did not enter to defend allies" !@#$%^&*. considering our allies were either not involved (Valhalla, GR, Symphony), NV was hit by Sparta/Darkfall (who themselves are part of NOIR), at peace or getting peace (NoR), aggressively attacked other alliances (Umbrella), or was not attacked themselves (Brigade); then LoSS is clearly the only ally involved that was fighting a true defensive war. So yes, we went in to defend allies regardless of what you state. what you state is just such utter !@#$%^&* that i am surprised you don't taste crap every time you swallow.

I've proven a lot, actually. That CSN was willing to negotiate. That CSN was willing to accept your counter term. And that you were being unreasonable in counter-offers.

And you realize that I'm not in CSN, right?

Also, I haven't omitted any relevant info. Not one piece of it. Nor am I lying. In fact, the only lies thus far have come from DT. In this blog they still refuse to accept that CSN accepted the terms, even though the logs clearly show that they did. Also, there are the obvious lies of omission. You were keeping CN updated daily. Until your last update, which was that CSN turned down 40k tech in reps. You never bothered to correct that, because that public perception helped you out. I'm not ignoring anything, and if by 'spinning' you mean 'presenting the facts, which happen to favor CSN', then sure, I'm 'spinning'. Nobody has destroyed any of my arguments, much less my main arguments: That DT has purposely not let the world know where the negotiations stand for the PR benefit, That DT is refusing to negotiate in good faith, AND that CSN accepted terms proposed *by DT* a day after they were proposed, only to be turned down.

actually you have proven little, just refuse to see that. take the "DT did not enter to defend allies" !@#$%^&* argument that has been trashed repeatedly and you still refuse to acknowledge the fact. instead you continue to repeat your !@#$%^&* as if it is true when it is an utter lie. i have laid it out for you twice the breakdown with our allies. most were uninvolved, the ones on your side either hit aggressively or were not attacked (including Sparta, Darkfall, Umbrella who were the aggressors in their war and Sparta/Darkfall hit NV- an ally so why the hell should we defend them? and Brigade was never attacked after they entered on your side) so in fact the only two allies of DT that warranted us defending them was NV and LoSS both on the opposite side of the war. so please take your crap elsewhere. so, now that i have proven you are lying with this argument, can you please stop stating you are not lying.

CSN refused to budge for days and you talk of DT not negotiating in good faith. hahahahahahahaha seriously, that right there just shows how stupid you are and how much you are attempting to lie for CSN. you are also omitting the fact that CSN at first refused those terms offered by DT. thus, with the refusal, the terms were removed from the table. Then after the terms were removed, CSN finally decided to accept said terms. DT said that those terms were no longer on the table since they were refused. that is how negotiations go. if terms are refused, they are taken off the table. go figure right. so now we have figured out you are flat out lying with one of your arguments, lying/omitting with another argument. let us go on shall we?

ahhh DT is being unreasonable? hahahahahahaha CSN was unreasonable asking for 40k tech from our nations with 2k+ tech only. CSN was unreasonable to continue demanding tech solely from our 2k+ tech nations. DT countered and obviously after a while DT's offer was not unreasonable since after refusing it initially, CSN finally accepted. (too bad that since they had refused it, it was taken off the table) DT then countered with white peace (yes how unreasonable is that...) and an apology which when CSN refused to apologize was (zomg wait for it people, this is DT being completely unreasonable now) taken out. yes, you heard it, DT was so unreasonable that they removed the apology because CSN refused to do it. this is of course completely contrary to how CSN does it, which is obviously reasonable, by making a demand, then stubbornly sticking to it for a while, then negotiating a bit, then throwing temper tantrums and so on and so forth.

wow penkLOLa, you truly are stupid.

P.S. I love you all telling me to stop talking. You know I'll never do that. Regardless, if you don't like my arguments, just look at the facts I've brought in via the OP. That's all that really needs to be said. DT wanted everyone to think that they were offering CSN 40k tech, but CSN was refusing. The simple fact is that CSN's willing to negotiate, DT is not, so DT burns.

wait- i thought one of your arguments dealt with DT removing one of their counter-offers from the table? so you are trying to state that DT is refusing to negotiate while stating that DT was attempting to negotiate by CSN refused their counter offer, so it was removed because CSN again refused to accept it, and only later on did CSN decide to take the counter-offer.

so again, we have caught you in a lie. the simple fact is CSN was the first to refuse to negotiate. then CSN finally got to negotiating when a bunch of alliances started tapping their shoulders. (so it appears to not be CSN's idea to actually negotiate) and CSN only accepted DT's counter-offer again because of other alliances (they had refused it initially and was going to continue to refuse it had it not been for other alliances and shamedmonkey it appears). so please get off the "CSN is willing to negotiate" !@#$%^&* argument as it is quite apparent that CSN is completely unwilling to negotiate and is only doing so because other alliances and allies of theirs are going "wtf you think you doing?"

DT has attempted to negotiate several times without the need of other alliances prodding us to do so.

so now that you have been caught in another lie, can you seriously actually shut up. Your arguments HAVE been trashed several times over, the only reason you don't think they have been trashed is you actually are stupid and delusional enough to buy into your own propaganda and trash.