A Statement from Doomhouse

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300600227' post='2670877']
Ya'll keep referencing NPO's past crimes. Yes, I bring it up as well but most of the time, it is in reference to ya'lls side bringing it up. Usually in something of "We aren't as bad as NPO was" style posts.[/quote]
I see your side bring it up WAY more often than our side brings it up.

[quote]Actually that is false. If it was immoral for NPO to do it, then it sure is immoral for anyone else to do it. Something immoral does not magically become moral simply because a former victim of NPO is now doing it.[/quote]
How does this contradict my statement that "something isn't moral or immoral because NPO did or didn't do it."

[quote]So I was mistaken. You don't copy it exactly, you do add your own flair. Still does not mean it is not a very near copy. [/quote]
No we didn't "copy" them at all. There may be some similarities, but it was arrived at completely independently.

Remember you said that we "meant to mirror an action NPO did in the past.", as in, we did it only because NPO did it in the past. And that isn't true, we did it to get them out of peace mode, we don't care if they did it (or something vaguely similar) in the past or not.

[quote]If I see actions similar to what NPO did in the past, then I will reflect on that. Again, something immoral done by NPO or one of its henchmen, will never become magically moral simply because it is a former victim of NPO doing such actions.[/quote]
Why reflect on NPO having done it in the past? Attack it based on its own immortality. If it's wrong, you should be able to argue that it is wrong and don't need to bring up NPO at all. Claiming it is wrong only because NPO did something vaguely similar in the past and some people bashed it back then is pretty weak.

I was one of the people who criticized NPO's threats against GATO back in the day, but I was also very clear back in the day that I was only criticizing it because it would outlaw the tactical use of peace mode, not because I opposed NPO not allowing an enemy to hide nations in peace mode for an entire war.

[quote]I would say TOP/Co came up with something new. Your propaganda is typically hypocritical depending on if you are the ones being the "victims" (such as the pre-emptive attack by TOP/Co) or doing the action (such as pre-emptively attacking NPO). It is hard to keep your propaganda straight since it consistently changes.[/quote]
I was referring to our images.

[quote]Sure the frequency of white peace may be more, but the amount of reps sure has gone up. 2 billion from Legion???? I don't even think NPO/Co would ever have given reps that high for a non-core alliance. [/quote]
They did, in noCB. MK paid the tech equivalent 2.52 billion AND we fought, and proportionally similar reps to our allies. The Legion reps are so high because they have literally hidden over 90% of their NS in peace mode.

That doesn't even account for other terms that don't involve reps, the only terms that tend to be harsh today involve high reps, not forced disbandments, wonder decommissioning, viceroys, etc.

But this misses the point. Arguments over terms should rest on their own contemporary merits, not how they compare to those in the past.

[quote]I am not stuck on Karma anymore. I know Karma was an illusion. Just like lines like this "We near the end. The end of forced disbandment. The end of terms that cripple alliances forever. The end of silence for fear of persecution. The end of the influence of those who would overthrow these goals in favor of their own return to power. The end of cowardice. The end of myth and fear. The end of this war." are nothing more than an illusion and propaganda that will be thrown away when it is convenient to do so. [/quote]
None of those things will fly today, because the arguments against them will rest on their merits. Just compare the reaction to this thread from reactions to NPO threads back in the day before noCB. Almost everyone groveled at NPO's feet.

[quote]Your insistence on not actually learning from history is amazing. There is a reason there is an adage that goes "Those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it". Your actions are a reflection of the hegemony of old, not some new hegemony as the one described in the quote from the OP. [/quote]
Whatever.

[quote]As for your treaty reset, I can only quote Geoffron X here, "Wait, you're bringing out the treaty reset as your major uniqueness? Where you resigned with most of your allies, except for those in Polar's sphere of influence, so that all it was was an attempt to hide that fact?" Though there are maybe a couple or so alliances that you did not resign with outside Polar's influence as well.[/quote]
And as I pointed out to him, your "maybe a couple or so alliances" was about half of the treaties outside of the Polar sphere.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300659575' post='2671461']
Look at [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31076"]This thread. [/url] or any thread from that war, now look at this one. See the difference?
the same people that blindly o/'d NPO in that war are attacking her in this one.
now morally you guys should all be ZI'ing MK for attacking NPO.
when is the wishy washy BS going to stop?
That's how it should be, the world should be allied to NPO while MK is cold and alone. I like it better in the past, that world was wayyy better than before MK screwed it all up.
[/quote]


Just stop. Please...

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300660842' post='2671479']
I see your side bring it up WAY more often than our side brings it up.


How does this contradict my statement that "something isn't moral or immoral because NPO did or didn't do it."


No we didn't "copy" them at all. There may be some similarities, but it was arrived at completely independently.

Remember you said that we "meant to mirror an action NPO did in the past.", as in, we did it only because NPO did it in the past. And that isn't true, we did it to get them out of peace mode, we don't care if they did it (or something vaguely similar) in the past or not.


Why reflect on NPO having done it in the past? Attack it based on its own immortality. If it's wrong, you should be able to argue that it is wrong and don't need to bring up NPO at all. Claiming it is wrong only because NPO did something vaguely similar in the past and some people bashed it back then is pretty weak.

I was one of the people who criticized NPO's threats against GATO back in the day, but I was also very clear back in the day that I was only criticizing it because it would outlaw the tactical use of peace mode, not because I opposed NPO not allowing an enemy to hide nations in peace mode for an entire war.


I was referring to our images.


They did, in noCB. MK paid the tech equivalent 2.52 billion AND we fought, and proportionally similar reps to our allies. The Legion reps are so high because they have literally hidden over 90% of their NS in peace mode.

That doesn't even account for other terms that don't involve reps, the only terms that tend to be harsh today involve high reps, not forced disbandments, wonder decommissioning, viceroys, etc.

But this misses the point. Arguments over terms should rest on their own contemporary merits, not how they compare to those in the past.


None of those things will fly today, because the arguments against them will rest on their merits. Just compare the reaction to this thread from reactions to NPO threads back in the day before noCB. Almost everyone groveled at NPO's feet.


Whatever.


And as I pointed out to him, your "maybe a couple or so alliances" was about half of the treaties outside of the Polar sphere.
[/quote]
oh get your head out of your ass Azaghul, no matter how you guys slice it up, or try to repackage it, what you did was an unprovoked Imperialistic attack.
you !@#$%* about how evil NPO was yet you pull the same bull !@#$.
you attack them on these forums 3 years ago for imperialism, we're in this thread because
you guys are building your empire.
MK members call the woodstock massacre the largest sanctioned tech raid in history,
you guys are currently doing a team tech raid on Red team.
does it really matter that there's 2 sides to the treaty web?
does it matter that we don't like you? how is what you are doing in any way right?
I didn't agree with what NPO did, I don't agree with everything NPO does now.
but that doesn't stop me from viewing them as the victim. a victim of an unprovoked
Imperialistic attack against the south end of the treaty web to force alliances to MK.
TOP, Umbrella, GOONS, etc, all have nothing to do with your decision other than being MK satellite states. TOP is an alliance you vanquished in the past and forced to ally to MK.
The same is happening here, when Hegemony is dead MK will have that many more meatshields and Vassal states. Your empire is going to be bigger than NPO's ever was.
thing is you're a worse alliance than NPO ever was. When does it stop Azaghul? how much is enough?

[Kyaris]

Somehow this thread has managed to go to one hundred pages of NPO crying about how we attacked them "for no reason". Glorious.

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Guffey' timestamp='1300659899' post='2671468']
So its a crime for someone to attack GOONS, but not a crime for GOONS to attack someone else?
[/quote]
The victors write the history books. Beat us and enforce our own rules against us. We won't complain.

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300661828' post='2671492']
Somehow this thread has managed to go to one hundred pages of NPO crying about how we attacked them "for no reason". Glorious.
[/quote]
NPO didn't do anything to you, they never fired one shot before you ganged up on them in the biggest imperialistic attack since NADC vs Bleu.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300661991' post='2671494']
NPO didn't do anything to you, they never fired one shot before you ganged up on them in the biggest imperialistic attack since NADC vs Bleu.
[/quote]

Oh quit your whining. If you're not in peace mode with their leadership, you're being left out to dry with the lines about how unjustly you've been treated. How long are you going to let yourself be used for their self-righteous sake?

[Letum]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1300661912' post='2671493']
The victors write the history books. Beat us and enforce our own rules against us. We won't complain.
[/quote]

I cannot speak for you individually, but about half of the "reason" advanced for Doomhouse's DoW is a complaint about stuff that happened in 2007 and 2008.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1300662231' post='2671500']
I cannot speak for you individually, but about half of the "reason" advanced for Doomhouse's DoW is a complaint about stuff that happened in 2007 and 2008.
[/quote]

Is there a statute of limitations on justice?

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300662187' post='2671499']
Oh quit your whining. If you're not in peace mode with their leadership, you're being left out to dry with the lines about how unjustly you've been treated. How long are you going to let yourself be used for their self-righteous sake?
[/quote]
When old hegemony used to beat people down they'd always say "Quit your whining"
GOONS got told that alot. now a GOONS member is saying it.
One always get's bolder when they are winning. oh how the roles have reversed.
You know I'm right, the Human side of you knows what MK did is an unprovoked Imperialistic attack. yet you try and justify it.

[Learz]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1300658103' post='2671439']
As have those of everyone at war at the moment (even if to differing degrees). We're far, far from a defeated alliance though, as was originally implied.
[/quote]
Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there. From my varied experiences all across the cybersphere, however, it's my opinion that you're dead but do not yet realize it.

[quote]Should we not be using any resources at our disposal to attain and maintain an advantage?[/quote]
Of course you should be! But external means of support indicates weak internal support.

[quote]Weren't you saying something similar a couple weeks ago? That there was an unforeseen situation - other than by some on your side - that was about to change the war?

I'm thinking this one will be as credible as the last one (which never did materialize). Especially since the idea that our side will suddenly begin crumbling and that yours will not continue to is a ridiculous one.[/quote]
Not exactly. Everything I said then still holds, just as now. I never claimed that there was some sort of miraculous event about to occur that would shock and awe Doomhouse. I merely pointed out (like now) that things are not as rosy as y'all are portraying them, and that "we" are in quite a good position and prepared to stay here for a long time. Can the same be said of your side?
[If your response is no, then I'm proven correct.]
[If your response is yes, then why the need for this very thread? It smacks of desperation.]

[Monster]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300592713' post='2670766']
Ahh... my bad, I honestly thought BAPS went in. And I never meant to state that either IRON or DR would join in this war (DT is allied with Valhalla. ) just that it pretty much deflates the argument against NPO being seen as a threat because they had the potential to enter.
[/quote]

No, it doesn't. Duckroll's stance was clear from the start and had treaties to both sides. NPO and its allies only had treaties to NpO's side. Well the one treaty that cold have been activated was Hydra and it was known that couldn't have happened.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300662409' post='2671504']
When old hegemony used to beat people down they'd always say "Quit your whining"
GOONS got told that alot. now a GOONS member is saying it.
One always get's bolder when they are winning. oh how the roles have reversed.
You know I'm right, the Human side of you knows what MK did is an unprovoked Imperialistic attack. yet you try and justify it.
[/quote]

Man it's almost like we have a historical CB for this war because of that.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300662306' post='2671503']
Is there a statute of limitations on justice?
[/quote]
No, but arguably there is a provision against double-dipping for personal gain and entertainment.

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1300662231' post='2671500']
I cannot speak for you individually, but about half of the "reason" advanced for Doomhouse's DoW is a complaint about stuff that happened in 2007 and 2008.
[/quote]
I never mentioned DH's DoW. All I said was that GOONS forces alliances that attack us to pay reps. If you ever defeat us feel free to use the same rules.

[Learz]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300662306' post='2671503']
Is there a statute of limitations on justice?
[/quote]
Actually, yes, there is, but we won't go there. I would, however, refer you to the [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54702"](second) GOONS DoE.[/url] I suggest you read it.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Guffey' timestamp='1300659899' post='2671468']
So its a crime for someone to attack GOONS, but not a crime for GOONS to attack someone else?
[/quote]
Yep, pretty much. I'm sure NPO believes the same about our attack on them. All alliances on some level believe this to be the case.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300662520' post='2671509']
No, but arguably there is a provision against double-dipping for personal gain and entertainment.
[/quote]

It's oh so rare and wonderful when we get to mix business and pleasure.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300662187' post='2671499']
Oh quit your whining. If you're not in peace mode with their leadership, you're being left out to dry with the lines about how unjustly you've been treated. How long are you going to let yourself be used for their self-righteous sake?
[/quote]
I've seen so many of these nublets spouting these bull!@#$ lines, tell me, did Sardy and the others tell you to just keep repeating this drivel [i]ad infinitum[/i]?

[Letum]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300662306' post='2671503']
Is there a statute of limitations on justice?
[/quote]

Why don't you let me know when your current actions are used as "justification" by whichever alliance you end up being beaten by within the next 3 years.

[quote]
I never mentioned DH's DoW. All I said was that GOONS forces alliances that attack us to pay reps. If you ever defeat us feel free to use the same rules.
[/quote]

The reason why the DoW is pertinent is because it, and many other statements by GOONS, reflect complaints about past events. Therefore, your assertion that GOONS would not complain if it, in turn, was faced with the kind of mistreatment it now heaps on others doesn't make sense, because you (plural) are already complaining about the past.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300662680' post='2671515']
Yep, pretty much. I'm sure NPO believes the same about our attack on them. All alliances on some level believe this to be the case.
[/quote]
I don't. Nor do most of us. Try not to transfer your own twisted sense of right and wrong onto the rest of us.

[Letum]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300662680' post='2671515']
Yep, pretty much. I'm sure NPO believes the same about our attack on them. All alliances on some level believe this to be the case.
[/quote]

The New Pacific Order does not regard the activation of Mutual Defence Pacts in response to an unprovoked strike as a crime. Trying to put allies defending each other from aggression on the same level as your ruthless and self-serving actions is pure spin. Few alliances believe that any conflict they're in that they themselves do not initiate is a "crime". And those that do are mostly the ones corrupted by power, seeking for some vain excuse to make use of it in order to further damage their opponents.

It is this kind of arrogance and attitude that shows the world how GOONS has not really changed.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300662846' post='2671518']
I've seen so many of these nublets spouting these bull!@#$ lines, tell me, did Sardy and the others tell you to just keep repeating this drivel [i]ad infinitum[/i]?
[/quote]

Something very similar could be said about your own knack for repetition, friend.

[Guffey]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300662680' post='2671515']
Yep, pretty much. I'm sure NPO believes the same about our attack on them. All alliances on some level believe this to be the case.
[/quote]

We do not and never will. Any time an alliance engages in warfare with another alliance, they know that allies and friends of that other guy may come in to defend. They accept all those attacks the second they declare war. It cannot be a crime of someone else if you start it with their friends.

It does however become a crime when it becomes an merciless curbstomp. This is not the case currently because there is no curbstomp in any way shape or form. If there was a curbstomp against you, I can guarantee that Avalon would not have declared war on DH since we do not participate or agree with the curbstomping of anyone.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Guffey

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300663173' post='2671529']
Something very similar could be said about your own knack for repetition, friend.
[/quote]
It is not my fault that you refuse to give me any new material to work with.