Really, Methrage?

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1301628149' post='2681886']
Simply sending them cash? There you would have a point.

But we arent talking about donations of cash. We are talking about commercial transactions - trade. I see quite a few of your goons selling and buying tech with neutral parties at the moment, and you are just as much at war as Kerberos Nexus is. ODN is selling and buying tech with neutral parties as well, of course, and anyone can verify that in seconds.

Not that there is anything wrong with that - there isnt. More power to you. But crying foul because your opponent does [i]the exact same thing you are doing[/i] is pathetic, pacifican, and pointless.
[/quote]
My enemies can take it up with my tech sellers. I didn't say that selling tech to me (or in other words, aiding and abetting me in my war against my enemies) isn't an act of war against them.

Edit: [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1301630106' post='2681905']
And it would be just as foolish from one side as the other.
[/quote]
Foolish in what way? Meth's tech deals finance his nukes and his war in general. It would be in his enemies' interest to interdict that trade by either utilising diplomacy or force. Similarly, it would be in Meth's interest to interdict the tech and cash being traded to his enemies in the same fashion. That would be a sensible tactic to employ (to my way of thinking at least) and not foolish in the slightest.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[The Trail]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1301626726' post='2681872']
No, it's because their tech dealer is in a major war.


ODN also has the political position to ask for reps from anyone who aids Methrage. ODN's enemies don't have that same power.
[/quote]

> implying ODN has the power to ask for reps from Duckroll

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1301271391' post='2678622']
Proves how full of !@#$ you all are.



let me point out a few things for the people like BamaBac who are incapable of reading at a level above five.

WHERE did I state he was been a bullying on ODN, I stated he was a bully picking on smaller nations.

I just hope to Admin the terms give to a sad person such as Methrage are the worst terms that can be given to him, 6 months OWF ban
[/quote]

[color="#0000FF"]I pick on smaller nations. I sometimes even nuke them. Does that make me a bully and a bad person? Really, what you have me do? Not use nuclear weapons or destroy my wonders? Should I not use the advantages I have to meet some moronic concept of honor and fairness in a fight?

And just to help you out, there is no such thing as a fair fight.[/color]

[dggilluminatus]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1301625024' post='2681854']
Aiding and abetting my enemy by sending them cash while they are at war with me is an act of war against me. Seriously.
[/quote]

Using this logic then it would seem you would also go after his real "trade" partners since him having ANY trade agreements; whether tech or otherwise, is aiding him in some way.........

[Beefspari]

[quote name='illuminatus' timestamp='1301649525' post='2682074']
Using this logic then it would seem you would also go after his real "trade" partners since him having ANY trade agreements; whether tech or otherwise, is aiding him in some way.........
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/leo5.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
You could argue that if you want, but on the whole on Bob there's more or less a precedent that going after trade partners isn't really something you do. You can drop sanctions for rogues, but beyond that you leave trade partners alone. If you're asking people to break common convention just to prove some sort of point then... no.
[right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9R1.jpg[/img][/right]

And even if they cared, providing aluminum isn't quite the same as sending 4.5m to a nation with high bills and no money.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL3.jpg[/img]

Edited April 1, 2011 by Beefspari

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301605173' post='2681619']
That might entail war with alliances that have more than 30 members, though!! Eek!
[/quote]
You do know CnG is at war with Legion right? It's not ODN's fault that legion are cowards hiding in peace mode.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1301626726' post='2681872']
ODN also has the political position to ask for reps from anyone who aids Methrage. ODN's enemies don't have that same power.
[/quote]
MHA is quaking in their boots.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1301670824' post='2682191']
You could argue that if you want, but on the whole on Bob there's more or less a precedent that going after trade partners isn't really something you do. [/quote]

That's right, and there are very good reasons for that, and logically they apply equally to both types of trades.

[quote]And even if they cared, providing aluminum isn't quite the same as sending 4.5m to a nation with high bills and no money. [/quote]


[i][b]Aluminum[/b] Increases soldier efficiency +20%, lowers infrastructure purchase cost -7%, and lowers aircraft purchase costs -8%.[/i]

Yeah, that's not going to help a nation fight their wars at all. Especially not if it triggers the construction bonus for a larger airforce.

Also I guess it's a relative term, but by almost any standards Libertarian Empires bills are... miniscule.

[color="red"]Also, this is OOC but it really has to be said. Even in real life this whole 'deprive the enemy of the means to fight' thing is counterproductive most of the time. In CN it makes no sense whatsoever. The means to fight is readily available to anyone who cares and no amount of effort is going to change that, admin set it up that way for a reason. Tactics like sanctioning and bullying trade partners make you look bad and are ultimately futile, at least against an experienced player who understands what is going on. I've never been very close with Methrage and cannot claim to know him well, but he clearly is a veteran player not a noob.

Focusing like this on the material basis for war is really a huge strategic mistake in CN. What is important is will and motivation, as long as he has both he can and will continue regardless of other factors. Even if his opponents managed (at high cost to them you can be certain) to completely cut him off from aid and ultimately force deletion on his nation, do you really imagine that would amount to strategic victory? In fact all it would do is cement his motivation and justify his recourse to devious tactics (if his enemies wont fight fair why should he hey?) An old nation with the full set of wonders and very little else can be a tactical challenge, but an old player with no nation and a serious grudge, someone who has actually *lost* an old nation with a full wonder set to unscrupulous tactics and will thus feel no remorse in resorting to unscrupulous tactics himself, could cause much more damage.

War is the primary draw here for so much of the community, and as long as both sides fight fair the strong tendency is for those who fight each other to enjoy the experience and come out of it with increased respect for each other. Attempting to deprive a player of the ability to fight is tantamount to attempting to prevent them from playing at all. The taboo on resorting to sanctions as weapons of war recognises this - sure you can gain a temporary tactical advantage (an enourmous one against an inexperienced opponent) by doing that, but ultimately it is disrespectful to the opponent, to the game, to the community. Long-standing custom limits the use of sanctions to 'rogues' who are presumed to be leaving the game anyway, and that custom is very wise. [/color]

I used the adjective 'pacifican' earlier very deliberately, because we have here piled together a number of the mistakes that ultimately brought karma down on pacifica. Double standards (when we do it it is fine, when they do it horribly wrong) and a singleminded pursuit of dominance without respect for the opponent and without any sense that it is even possible to go too far in that pursuit dont tend to work out well in the long run, even when they seem to work in the short term. And more specifically, this "precedent" that keeps being referenced is one that Pacifica set and insisted on back when they ran things, one of the many examples of their misrule. We took those tyrants off their throne some time back now, it is sad that the habits of servility seem to still control so many even today.

If those he is fighting want help with the situation I personally would be happy to oblige, at the level of sharing advice and insight. He and I have a similar base of experience and knowledge so I think I do have insight that would be valuable to you, and my sympathies in the current war go more towards your side than the other. But I think I have said all that I should on the subject publicly. Involved parties may feel free to query or PM me for assistance.

Edit: fixed colour/ooc line

Edited April 1, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1301682152' post='2682318']
That's right, and there are very good reasons for that, and logically they apply equally to both types of trades.[/quote]
No. They don't. Ask just about anyone and they'll consider sending money, soldiers, and tech to someone an act of war. Especially when soldiers are included since that's an obvious "aiding the war effort" act. They could give a crap if you're supplying them with marble. Very rarely someone will try to push the uranium supplying issue, but that's still a gray area on planet Bob. If you think you can make attacking trade partners the new thing, I wish you luck. You will have very little support.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L5.jpg[/img]

[Sephiroth]

If anything this thread is free advertising for me and my tech deals, people can see that I'm selling tech and reliable on sending it on time. My customers have all been satisfied, many of them repeat buyers. Considering ODN and most major alliances don't stop doing tech deals during war, there is nothing illegitimate about what I'm doing or anything wrong with people buying tech from me.

All the complainers obviously haven't bought tech off me, because they would be a satisfied customer if they did and have nothing to complain about.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Methrage

[Haklangr]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1301682457' post='2682322']
No. They don't. Ask just about anyone and they'll consider sending money, soldiers, and tech to someone an act of war. Especially when soldiers are included since that's an obvious "aiding the war effort" act. They could give a crap if you're supplying them with marble. Very rarely someone will try to push the uranium supplying issue, but that's still a gray area on planet Bob. If you think you can make attacking trade partners the new thing, I wish you luck. You will have very little support.
[/quote]
It doesn't matter what common opinion is, though; the point is that even resource trading is aiding the enemy. It's just a matter of degree - it might not be worth doing anything about at that level, but if you're against tech deals at war you should, at least in theory, be against trading circles in war too.

Edit: Then again, tech deals could very well turn the tide of a war, but a broken trade circle wouldn't spell immediate disaster, AFAIK. Hmm.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Haklangr

[Bob Janova]

Methrage is doing nothing wrong here. If you want to complain to anyone, complain to the people who are engaging in deals with him. But considering you are doing deals all the time as well – and I'm sure you'd laugh in the fact of anyone who suggested you pay reps to Methrage, or the 15 other alliances you're at war with – it would be rather hypocritical to do so.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1301834616' post='2683388']
Methrage is doing nothing wrong here. If you want to complain to anyone, complain to the people who are engaging in deals with him. But considering you are doing deals all the time as well – and I'm sure you'd laugh in the fact of anyone who suggested you pay reps to Methrage, or the 15 other alliances you're at war with – it would be rather hypocritical to do so.
[/quote]
Methrage is free to demand reps from the people doing tech deals with MK when he wins the war.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L2.jpg[/img]

Edited April 3, 2011 by Beefspari

[Sephiroth]

If ODN wants me to stop attacking their nations, all they need to do is stop attacking my alliance mates and allies. ODN wants to complain about me attacking smaller nations? What about ODN declaring on alliances and nations way smaller then them? I'm fighting against a much larger opponent who is using their size advantage to try rolling my alliances mates and allies, all I want from them is to stop attacking me and those allied to me, I'm not the aggressor in the war with ODN and only want to defend myself and assist my allies who got declared on by an alliance way bigger than them.

If you guys don't want to be nuked and me to hit your nations, stop attack me and my allies. Its that simple, ODN is only getting attacked and their nations damaged because they're attacking and continue to attack. I'm not interested in a prolonged war with ODN, or one to begin with at all.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Methrage

[NOMNOMNOM]

By the way...

1. I do not represent ODN
2. We've all been trolled. Me, you, Methrage...
3. I have a reputation for making retarded posts like this in ODN. It seems attempting to establish it here was bad for the alliance reputation. Sorry guys. I'll make a better thread next time.

As for the advantage thing: I'm not telling him that he should delete his wonders or anything. I'm saying that he continually recieves aid, making it impossible to knock anything of his down. He entered this war with absolutely no warchest. Yet money kept appearing out of his pocket. And he rebuilt past 1k infra over and over again.

Plus, Timeline has made more of a fail of himself than I have

[FearUnited]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1300031384' post='2662964']
Having a negative option != Complaining

I complained about Drake and guess what, I did something about it
[/quote]

Hey, i wanted to fight you last war but you never fought me We coulda had a nice nuclear war going on

[FearUnited]

[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1301866046' post='2683583']
By the way...

1. I do not represent ODN
2. We've all been trolled. Me, you, Methrage...
3. I have a reputation for making retarded posts like this in ODN. It seems attempting to establish it here was bad for the alliance reputation. Sorry guys. I'll make a better thread next time.

As for the advantage thing: I'm not telling him that he should delete his wonders or anything. I'm saying that he continually recieves aid, making it impossible to knock anything of his down. He entered this war with absolutely no warchest. Yet money kept appearing out of his pocket. And he rebuilt past 1k infra over and over again.

Plus, Timeline has made more of a fail of himself than I have
[/quote]
Also, after page 2.. I gave up reading this. Really though, its [b]war[/b]. Cool, he started with no warchest but later got aid. It Happens! It doesnt have to be your alliance aiding you. Really, all i see is tech deals going on during a war... you still can do that.. [b]stop complaining[/b] and get over it...

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1301866046' post='2683583']
As for the advantage thing: I'm not telling him that he should delete his wonders or anything. I'm saying that he continually recieves aid, making it impossible to knock anything of his down. He entered this war with absolutely no warchest. Yet money kept appearing out of his pocket. And he rebuilt past 1k infra over and over again.
[/quote]
Join the club. We've been seeing our enemies inundated with aid for months while we've been able to distribute very little. That's war for you... If people can get aid, why wouldn't they? And why shouldn't they?

-Bama

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1301866046' post='2683583']
By the way...

1. I do not represent ODN
2. We've all been trolled. Me, you, Methrage...
3. I have a reputation for making retarded posts like this in ODN. It seems attempting to establish it here was bad for the alliance reputation. Sorry guys. I'll make a better thread next time. [/quote]

With this you regained my respect. Let no one say I am unmerciful.

[quote]As for the advantage thing: I'm not telling him that he should delete his wonders or anything. I'm saying that he continually recieves aid, making it impossible to knock anything of his down. He entered this war with absolutely no warchest. Yet money kept appearing out of his pocket. And he rebuilt past 1k infra over and over again. [/quote]

He is doing tech deals, which limits the cash he can receive since it ties up most of his slots sending. With a gynormous alliance behind you, you can simply receive war-aid instead, which means no wasting slots sending out tech. Plus on top of any aid offered by your alliance, no one is preventing you from selling tech with any leftover capacity after receiving your war aid, so I really dont see how you can meaningfully argue that he has advantages above and beyond his wonders and his knowledge/experience.

[NOMNOMNOM]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1301877264' post='2683674']
He is doing tech deals, which limits the cash he can receive since it ties up most of his slots sending. With a gynormous alliance behind you, you can simply receive war-aid instead, which means no wasting slots sending out tech. Plus on top of any aid offered by your alliance, no one is preventing you from selling tech with any leftover capacity after receiving your war aid, so I really dont see how you can meaningfully argue that he has advantages above and beyond his wonders and his knowledge/experience.
[/quote]

Eexcept each 500k for him=1 nuke, which is around the price of a 3 mil aid package for me. So effectively his money is worth 6x of mine, and that's not counting the aircraft, soldier, tank, tech, and land losses. And the GA losses after the nuke. Plus he has his FAC and DRA.

[FearUnited]

[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1301879219' post='2683689']
Eexcept each 500k for him=1 nuke, which is around the price of a 3 mil aid package for me. So effectively his money is worth 6x of mine, and that's not counting the aircraft, soldier, tank, tech, and land losses. And the GA losses after the nuke. Plus he has his FAC and DRA.
[/quote]
Actually, everytime you buy a nuke the price increase

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1301879219' post='2683689']
Eexcept each 500k for him=1 nuke, which is around the price of a 3 mil aid package for me. So effectively his money is worth 6x of mine, and that's not counting the aircraft, soldier, tank, tech, and land losses. And the GA losses after the nuke. Plus he has his FAC and DRA.
[/quote]
I'm usually fighting 3-6 opponents, many of them with a huge infra advantage declaring down on me when my wars start. If you think I'm fighting at a huge advantage, you're wrong. I'm heavily outnumbered and it requires a lot of focus and not messing up in what I do to grind down the infra of those bigger than me so I can win ground attacks, which requires a lot of careful timing and usage of my money to have enough to buy the required nukes, keep my infra and tech high enough, pay my bills, as well as complete all the tech deals I do on time. If I don't check cybernation for just 1 day or am busy with something else on update it has big consequences when fighting so many opponents at once.

ODN has the advantage going by how many nations you have that can hit me anytime and that those fighting me can receive full aid without needing to use their slots sending tech out in return. It was fun fighting you, but you're just one of countless ODN nations I've fought with a lot more infra than me when the fight starts. If I don't nuke you guys down so your infra is lower than mine, then there is no way I can win ground attacks on more than one of my many opponents I lose deployed troops attacking.

Rather than complain about being attacked by an alliance way larger than mine or that I'm being outnumbered, I decided to fight you guys the best I can and try to exceed all your expectations you had when declaring considering how much ODN was complaining about Legion not giving you guys a good fight.

While others you declared on late into war complained that you guys were attacking those engaged in an outnumbered war already and way smaller than you guys, I welcomed ODN to the fight and said I looked forward to the destroying you guys on the battlefield. If you guys are going to complain that Legion wasn't putting up enough of a fight as you declare on several alliances way smaller than you, don't complain when one of those small alliances decides put up a fight and accuse me of picking on nations smaller than me when that's what you guys have done from the start in this.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Methrage

[The Trail]

[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1301866046' post='2683583']
By the way...

1. I do not represent ODN
2. We've all been trolled. Me, you, Methrage...
3. I have a reputation for making retarded posts like this in ODN. It seems attempting to establish it here was bad for the alliance reputation. Sorry guys. I'll make a better thread next time.

As for the advantage thing: I'm not telling him that he should delete his wonders or anything. I'm saying that he continually recieves aid, making it impossible to knock anything of his down. He entered this war with absolutely no warchest. Yet money kept appearing out of his pocket. And he rebuilt past 1k infra over and over again.

Plus, Timeline has made more of a fail of himself than I have
[/quote]

if your alliance was actually competent then they would aid the !@#$ out of you.

[FearUnited]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1301885453' post='2683757']
I'm usually fighting 3-6 opponents, many of them with a huge infra advantage declaring down on me when my wars start. If you think I'm fighting at a huge advantage, you're wrong. I'm heavily outnumbered and it requires a lot of focus and not messing up in what I do to grind down the infra of those bigger than me so I can win ground attacks, which requires a lot of careful timing and usage of my money to have enough to buy the required nukes, keep my infra and tech high enough, pay my bills, as well as complete all the tech deals I do on time. If I don't check cybernation for just 1 day or am busy with something else on update it has big consequences when fighting so many opponents at once.

ODN has the advantage going by how many nations you have that can hit me anytime and that those fighting me can receive full aid without needing to use their slots sending tech out in return. It was fun fighting you, but you're just one of countless ODN nations I've fought with a lot more infra than me when the fight starts. If I don't nuke you guys down so your infra is lower than mine, then there is no way I can win ground attacks on more than one of my many opponents I lose deployed troops attacking.

Rather than complain about being attacked by an alliance way larger than mine or that I'm being outnumbered, I decided to fight you guys the best I can and try to exceed all your expectations you had when declaring considering how much ODN was complaining about Legion not giving you guys a good fight.

While others you declared on late into war complained that you guys were attacking those engaged in an outnumbered war already and way smaller than you guys, I welcomed ODN to the fight and said I looked forward to the destroying you guys on the battlefield. If you guys are going to complain that Legion wasn't putting up enough of a fight as you declare on several alliances way smaller than you, don't complain when one of those small alliances decides put up a fight and accuse me of picking on nations smaller than me when that's what you guys have done from the start in this.
[/quote]

Very true words.. He got you there

[Kubla Khan]

A few fun facts
Methrage has been in 19 wars against ODN nations, the first one was a defensive war declared by ausghostdog back on 2/20.
Since then Methrage has landed 65 nukes on ODN nations.

Meth retaliated with 2 offensive wars that day.
He is currently fighting 5 ONDers, all 5 are in anarchy, he is in anarchy

His 5 opponents have received 36 million bucks in aid (counting aid received after the war began)
Meth has received 7.5 mil and sent out 100 tech in the last round

The argument that these are not tech deals is tough to make as he has sent out 250 tech since the 9th and received 10.5 mil. They are clearly deals and some even for 100 tech.

If you don't like what hes doing that is fine but don't complain when you declare on someone and they spend the next month and a half tearing through your bottom tier. Most of the ODNers who were sent to attack him were larger than him to start off as well, he just happens to be more experienced, prepared, and competent that his attackers.