Hereno Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1298838870' post='2646271'] That still doesn't make any sense. Why would people assemble to take down the entity that decides justice? To decide their own justice (as you admitted). This means they have to have a preconceived knowledge of what they hold "just" that is different from the one that the current arbiter holds. People don't just make up morals and justice as they go on their actions, the actions are determined by the moral frameworks that the person has. [/quote] Or maybe they wanted to get rid of NPO because NPO wanted to destroy them. That sounds like a pretty good reason to me. [quote] You also can't call something a "bad deed" if you don't believe things can really be "bad" (unless this is the "bad" that current hegemony has defined I suppose which is complete bull). Like I said, your very own words contradict you. You hold moral beliefs and you're trying to pretend that your moral beliefs are magically changed/non-existent. It's terrible rhetoric designed to make you seem different from "moralists" but anybody with a clue knows that you view things as wrong and as right otherwise there would have literally been no reason to attack NPO. [/quote] 1) I wasn't speaking from my own perspective. Are we done harping on "bad" for now? 2) I don't hold moral beliefs. 3) Like I said, there are plenty of reasons to attack NPO, like wanting the freedom to raid red, or wanting to ensure your own survival. [quote] Also once again, if NPO didn't want to say they were sorry for they're actions what kind of diplomacy could they have done that was not just them straight up lying? They didn't pretend to be nice because they weren't going to pretend to be something they're not, especially since everybody is going to dislike them anyway. NPO seems to have pride in what they did, instead of being without a backbone. I disagree with that, but it's a viewpoint that doesn't harm anybody. [/quote] It harms a lot of people. Mainly, NPO and it's allies. [quote] Things haven't been like that for literally a year and half since NPO got rolled, but don't let that stop you from saying bogus things! After all, now it's your right to look like a moron and NPO won't roll you for it! [/quote] Let's test your hypothesis. Doomhouse is terrible and should be destroyed. Now, let's wait a week and see if I get rolled. [quote] You accused us of not working to change things when we are more powerful than Tetris and probably more relevant as well as actually at war (and will be for 1 month exactly tomorrow). Of course, you guys don't have to work because you like this world. Sounds a lot like pre-Karma NPO meatshield logic. [/quote] Why would I work to take power out of the hands of my friends and give it to my enemies? I don't care if you have more NS than my alliance, or consider yourself more relevant than I. The fact is, you see something wrong, so the burden is on you to change it. I see nothing wrong with the way things are going, and thus I am content to sit around paying bills. [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298840037' post='2646279'] If your leaders were afraid of us and shushed you for political reasons, it sounds more like a moral crime on your leaders part than ours. No voice should be silenced out of fear. We issued no orders to silence any voice nor was it our place to do so against sovereign regimes. If they're asking you to be silent for they fear you will make a fool of yourself and your alliance, then again, that was their doings, not ours. Your outrage is misdirected. Come, join us in this war.. to set things straight. Get your voice back. I'd have more of a response if Earogema hadn't pretty much verbalized everything I had in mind. [/quote] It's actually kind of clever how you twisted things to get that viewpoint, but, I'm afraid I have to decline your offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298840774' post='2646287'] It's actually kind of clever how you twisted things to get that viewpoint, but, I'm afraid I have to decline your offer. [/quote] No twist to it, that's how it happened. If you wish not to take my offer to defend your own voice from those who would squelch it for political convenience.. that is your choice, but realize that makes you simply part of their propaganda mechanisms and not a bastion of free will. That said, you have lost all authority on the subject. Edited February 27, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [color="#FF0000"]Hereno is my new best friend.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298841972' post='2646299'] [color="#FF0000"]Hereno is my new best friend.[/color] [/quote] Propagandists from the same side of the front do tend to co-mingle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298842048' post='2646301'] Propagandists from the same side of the front do tend to co-mingle. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]My thoughts are propaganda. Your thoughts are the truth. Derp Derp. Dont worry, you are my favorite NPO cheerleader by far. [/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Greenberg Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1298799461' post='2646058'] Nobody likes a cheerleader. [/quote] I think he is just exhausted trying to argue with VE, MK, and TOP constantly. It gets really annoying at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298842401' post='2646305'] [color="#FF0000"]My thoughts are propaganda. Your thoughts are the truth. Derp Derp. Dont worry, you are my favorite NPO cheerleader by far. [/color] [/quote] Heh, thanks. I'm going to completely ignore your sarcasm and take this as the compliment it should be. @Ryan: I get weary sometimes, but I actually find it entertaining. It's almost a hobby. Of course one can weary of a hobby after doing it for so long, but I'm fairly motivated to respond to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1298842513' post='2646307'] I think he is just exhausted trying to argue with VE, MK, and TOP constantly. It gets really annoying at times. [/quote] (the solution to this is to stop trying to fight every single battle (also posting horrible threads and defending them for page after page after page)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1298842964' post='2646313'] (the solution to this is to stop trying to fight every single battle (also posting horrible threads and defending them for page after page after page)) [/quote] Aw. I'll inform the Ministry of Truth they need to produce better content. Fighting every battle is enjoyable. It makes up for the luls of peace and keeps me in shape. A fat soldier is a bad soldier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298843098' post='2646316'] Aw. I'll inform the Ministry of Truth they need to produce better content. Fighting every battle is enjoyable. It makes up for the luls of peace and keeps me in shape. A fat soldier is a bad soldier. [/quote] It's too bad that your alliance doesn't apply that thinking to the actual war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earogema Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298840774' post='2646287'] Or maybe they wanted to get rid of NPO because NPO wanted to destroy them. That sounds like a pretty good reason to me. [/quote] Why does that matter if you hold no beliefs? Why is it wrong to destroy something? Why should you even want to exist? Why build your nation in the first place? Why did NPO destroy them? Things just don't "act." There is a reason that humans act. If you're going to argue subjective nonsense then that reason is their moral framework. [quote] 1) I wasn't speaking from my own perspective. Are we done harping on "bad" for now? 2) I don't hold moral beliefs. 3) Like I said, there are plenty of reasons to attack NPO, like wanting the freedom to raid red, or wanting to ensure your own survival. [/quote] 1. Why argue it then? Are you saying the actions of the NPO were not bad? Then you can't make a value judgment as to if NPO should have even bothered with diplomacy. 2. You've got to be kidding me. No seriously. Do you even know what a moral belief is? [quote]a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior[/quote] Anybody with an opinion views things as "wrong" or "right" unless you're some type of Nihilist. This is especially true since we've already established you believe in subjective changing of moral codes and ideas. Things don't stop being morals because they're the enemy's ideas or because you don't want them to be associated with that word. If you have a schism of what actions are right and what are wrong, there is a high chance that even if these actions are put into those categories due to reasons of efficiency that they are moral codes. 3. Those are "right" reasons. That's a moral judgement. You even used the word "freedom" and attached an obviously positive meaning to it. You're not even trying. [quote] It harms a lot of people. Mainly, NPO and it's allies. [/quote] Oh so clever! For a person who said that actions speak louder than words (remember you called CoJ irrelevant because we couldn't actually do anything to change the situation), you certainly put more stock into words than you should. [quote] Let's test your hypothesis. Doomhouse is terrible and should be destroyed. Now, let's wait a week and see if I get rolled. [/quote] What are you even talking about? I said that NPO wouldn't have rolled you after Karma and you knew I was right. The end of Karma was 1 and a half years ago. In addition, I don't know if Sardonic kept to it but the_rebel was added to GOONS EoG list for forum posts. I hope he didn't stick to it of course. Besides, NPO allies used to fake mock NPO all the time so you're not going to get anywhere with that "witty" retort. [quote] Why would I work to take power out of the hands of my friends and give it to my enemies? I don't care if you have more NS than my alliance, or consider yourself more relevant than I. The fact is, you see something wrong, so the burden is on you to change it. I see nothing wrong with the way things are going, and thus I am content to sit around paying bills. [/quote] I'm not telling you to change anything, I'm saying if anything we have been working to change things and your irrelevance quip made no sense coming a member of Tetris. Besides, Karma would have never worked if alliances didn't decide to actually change things, even if they got a pretty good deal from it (MHA comes to mind). Edited February 27, 2011 by Earogema Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1298844490' post='2646339'] It's too bad that your alliance doesn't apply that thinking to the actual war. [/quote] Old insult is old. Everyone in NPO is active and playing their part right now. Just because you don't understand the strategy doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about activity levels among our body. All are making sacrifices and that's why.. my friend.. you guys are taking more damage than we are despite having a lower collective strength. In summary.. you guys will be to 0 well before we are. Although I do encourage you to keep your current strategy, it serves us well. Edited February 27, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298842911' post='2646312'] Heh, thanks. I'm going to completely ignore your sarcasm and take this as the compliment it should be. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Denying the obvious is a condition that is unique to the Orders. [/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298845439' post='2646359'] [color="#FF0000"]Denying the obvious is a condition that is unique to the Orders. [/color] [/quote] Especially when it includes to you what should be our "obvious destruction", no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298845203' post='2646357'] Old insult is old. Everyone in NPO is active and playing their part right now. Just because you don't understand the strategy doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about activity levels among our body. All are making sacrifices and that's why.. my friend.. you guys are taking more damage than we are despite having a lower collective strength. In summary.. you guys will be to 0 well before we are. Although I do encourage you to keep your current strategy, it serves us well. [/quote] You're taking less damage than us? By what measure? I understand the strategy well: hide all your top tier in peace mode and wait till you'll think we're bored and tired of fighting in the lower tier and will let you off with your top tier intact. Ain't gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1298846801' post='2646372'] You're taking less damage than us? By what measure? I understand the strategy well: hide all your top tier in peace mode and wait till you'll think we're bored and tired of fighting in the lower tier and will let you off with your top tier intact. Ain't gonna happen. [/quote] If that's all you think there is to it, you truly have underestimated us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cager Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298846862' post='2646373'] If that's all you think there is to it, you truly have underestimated us. [/quote] last I checked you aren't a member of the imperial staff or a member of milcom so how you can discuss a strategy I'm pretty sure you know nothing about is beyond me. But it seems just like you to say things you know nothing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298841084' post='2646290'] No twist to it, that's how it happened. If you wish not to take my offer to defend your own voice from those who would squelch it for political convenience.. that is your choice, but realize that makes you simply part of their propaganda mechanisms and not a bastion of free will. That said, you have lost all authority on the subject. [/quote] No offense, MV, but the absolutist and certain tone that is so omnipresent in discussions within the NPO does not function very well in discussions without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1298853068' post='2646431'] No offense, MV, but the absolutist and certain tone that is so omnipresent in discussions within the NPO does not function very well in discussions without. [/quote] Can you cite any situation or event which proves my statement false or contradictory? I challenge you to do this. Edited February 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298836908' post='2646259'] I don't see "wrong" and "right", I just see actions and the responses to those actions. Those in power dictate what is right and what is wrong. Back then, NPO dictated morality, and so obviously anything NPO did was justified to most. Power changed hands, and now those same actions are considered unjustified by most. [/quote] This argument is void because the same actions are occurring. [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298836908' post='2646259'] So, NPO did stuff to the people in power now that hampered their growth and threatened their survival. Now, NPO is on the receiving end. And instead of getting with the times and doing their best to make nice, they still oppose their old enemies, and so now their enemies are beating them down again. Why? Because why would you let your enemy grow when you can stop him short? If NPO doesn't want to get beat down, it needs to get enough friends to secure itself, or make itself not the enemy.[/quote] This has been shown for the silliness that it is all over this thread and half a dozen more threads and blogs. [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298836908' post='2646259'] Why would my alliance be working to change the world when we like the way it is now? I can post on the OWF without having my leader shush me or kick me out because "NPO might get mad and roll us." That's awesome! [/quote] Yet you claim that NPO should change the way it talks--drop the arrogance that you say they have--in order not to get attacked. That if NPO had spoken in a certain way, said or not said certain things, then they would not be under attack. It's one or the other. [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298840774' post='2646287'] Or maybe they wanted to get rid of NPO because NPO wanted to destroy them. That sounds like a pretty good reason to me.[/quote] Show me. [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298840774' post='2646287'] Why would I work to take power out of the hands of my friends and give it to my enemies? I don't care if you have more NS than my alliance, or consider yourself more relevant than I. The fact is, you see something wrong, so the burden is on you to change it.[/quote] This is an empty hot-airism. All the defenders in this war were sitting around minding their own business. We had no particular problems--none that stirred enough passion to bother with--and had no reason to go about changing anything. Regardless, here we sit, at war, attacked out of the blue. The simple fact of the matter is that you are tilted in against yourself in everything you say. Everything you say contradicts itself, or is simply a fallacy.You level charge after charge but you bring no example with you. You cannot show anything that you say, while stating it as fact. That is why your posts do not warrant any in-depth response. You are just wrong. [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298841972' post='2646299'] Hereno is my new best friend. [/quote] He ought to be, he's more eloquent than you but just as wrong, everyone loves someone that will do their homework for them. Edited February 28, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1298846801' post='2646372'] I understand the strategy well: hide all your top tier in peace mode and wait till you'll think we're bored and tired of fighting in the lower tier and will let you off with your top tier intact. Ain't gonna happen. [/quote] You have been very clear that MK is fighting this war to save the world from stagnation, but we both know that is not the truth, so I'm glad to see you come around to the fact that MK simply wants to take NPO to ZI. And then things are going to be totally fun again, right, when there's nothing but Doomhouse. What a self-absorbed liar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) Also, am I the only person who is irked by the misuse of the word dilettante in the title? First of all, I don't think that means what you think it means (a person whose interest in a subject is superficial rather than professional; a person who takes up a subject merely for amusement, especially in a desultory way [desultory meaning inconsistent]) although it is [i]deliciously[/i] true. Second, dilettante is not a verb as it has been used, and if it's being used as a noun it is not used properly either. Edited February 28, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1298856823' post='2646461'] Also, am I the only person who is irked by the misuse of the word dilettante in the title? First of all, I don't think that means what you think it means (a person whose interest in a subject is superficial rather than professional; a person who takes up a subject merely for amusement, especially in a desultory way [desultory meaning inconsistent]) although it is [i]deliciously[/i] true. Second, dilettante is not a verb as it has been used, and if it's being used as a noun it is not used properly either. [/quote] If my enemy prefers to skewer themselves.. I have no qualms in letting them do so and I surely have no reason to let them know. Edited February 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted February 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1298856823' post='2646461'] Also, am I the only person who is irked by the misuse of the word dilettante in the title? First of all, I don't think that means what you think it means (a person whose interest in a subject is superficial rather than professional; a person who takes up a subject merely for amusement, especially in a desultory way [desultory meaning inconsistent]) although it is [i]deliciously[/i] true. Second, dilettante is not a verb as it has been used, and if it's being used as a noun it is not used properly either. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]I will concede your second point, but the use of the word "dilettante" is purely intentional and applicable. If you read the introduction the my little essay here, you would have learned that I pieced the content together out of a conversation that I was having in an embassy. It was by no means a dedicated editorial, but rather something the developed and voices my opinion on the situation that we face today. With that being said, you may continue with the ad hominem attacks. They are quite delicious.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1298856547' post='2646455'] You have been very clear that MK is fighting this war to save the world from stagnation, but we both know that is not the truth, so I'm glad to see you come around to the fact that MK simply wants to take NPO to ZI. And then things are going to be totally fun again, right, when there's nothing but Doomhouse. What a self-absorbed liar. [/quote] How are these ideas mutually exclusive? I'm for war. If almost everyone is hiding in peace mode, we don't have war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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