The war on Evil.

[Monster]

TPF had been mobilizing significantly and NPO had sent significant numbers into pm long before the preemptive strike. If they were completely intent on staying out and not "keeping their options open", they could have just as easily posted a DoN.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296367207' post='2610597']
Only because they don't have the power to do the things they were punished for. They have shown no real amount of remorse for their actions.
[/quote]

Are you really that blind? Is your propaganda that thick you can't see the world as it is? Half of us were never here for the atrocities we paid penance for in Karma. The other half paid the most massive reparations in history.

My bet is you simply want to see us to cease to exist and that you have severe cognitive dissonance with what you're actually speaking. Making you evil.

[DogeWilliam]

I really don't have any sympathy for NPO. Look at the history of war on planet bob. Most were launched by you. Just because you aren't winning or the aggressor now does not put you in a place that we should be upset for you.

GPA is really the only alliance that would get my sympathy for being attacked. And...well you attacked them. (and if anyone is going to try and refute me by saying TOP was allied with NPO at the time, I was on hiatus at the time so there! )

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296367282' post='2610600']
TPF had been mobilizing significantly and NPO had sent significant numbers into pm long before the preemptive strike. If they were completely intent on staying out and not "keeping their options open", they could have just as easily posted a DoN.
[/quote]

We were sending people into PM, because I had been ranting and raving that someone was going to side-swipe us based on the massive trolling the members of PB/MK were giving us on the forums. I was correct. Your evil showed itself for what it was.

Nice back-stab.

I am beginning to think I have a 6th sense.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296366922' post='2610583']
Woo hoo they followed karma surrender terms, good work NPO. That's not change I can believe in.[/quote]

Of course woo hoo! We won! What was the war about if not forcing them to do things our way? The right way?

[quote]
You can "thing" whatever you want, I'm speculating based on what I know. You can disagree with my speculations all you want, but none of what I have said is based on falsehoods.
[/quote]

Most of your speculations based on falsehoods! You say they have not changed, yet they've objectively changed in multiple ways. No wars. No blockading of spheres. There's two objective changes. That's two right there. But it's clear that you don't care about facts where as I always have.

I've argued with you one reply too many already. I'm out.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='DogeWilliam' timestamp='1296367379' post='2610606']
I really don't have any sympathy for NPO. Look at the history of war on planet bob. Most were launched by you. Just because you aren't winning or the aggressor now does not put you in a place that we should be upset for you.
[/quote]

We paid for our transgressions.

[quote]
GPA is really the only alliance that would get my sympathy for being attacked. And...well you attacked them. (and if anyone is going to try and refute me by saying TOP was allied with NPO at the time, I was on hiatus at the time so there! )
[/quote]

Everyone has sympathy if GPA is attacked, they've done well in their history. We've learned from ours. We struck at no one in two years. Would you like to accuse of something new instead of something old? Something relevant to the world after 2009?

What I expected is true. The same reasonless logic is being circulated repetitively for a war that should not be. Evil will do anything to justify itself.

I will respond no further. It will not help.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[bbrownso]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296360827' post='2610346']
Even if they didn't want to ditch their dead weight allies they still could have attempted to secure their position by erasing the hate caused by their actions. Tell me Tyga, how many diplomats do you think NPO sent to FAN? Do you think NPO ever even so much as attempted to apologize for their transgressions against MK? To ignore the past and allow hate to fester is nigh suicidal for any alliance. It's far easier to forge a new future if you are not restrained by your past.
[/quote]

I can vouch that NPO came to IAA to make amends and attempted to normalize diplomatic relations. As for FAN and MK, why would they go groveling so soon after a war. We both know that we'd then be hearing about how NPO was making false overtures in an attempt to destabilize those alliances for revenge or some such nonsense. Neither FAN nor MK are reasonable targets for attempts diplomacy so soon after the major conflict between those parties.

With the amount of bad blood between NPO and some alliances, the mere attempt to attempt diplomacy would be laughed at and likely mocked or viewed in a negative light. It's foolish to attempt to use this rationale for your blatantly aggressive actions against an alliance that certainly appeared to have turned over a new leaf.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296367282' post='2610600']
TPF had been mobilizing significantly and NPO had sent significant numbers into pm long before the preemptive strike. If they were completely intent on staying out and not "keeping their options open", they could have just as easily posted a DoN.
[/quote]

TPF is our ally as well. Are you 100% sure they weren't mobilizing because they knew we will stand by Polar? That war did start days earlier and we voiced our support against VE's bogus spying claim quite a bit earlier than we even entered.

As for NPO, even someone as politically unconnected as me (honestly, I talk to very few people and never hear of anything early) knew that MK was building an anti-NPO movement. If NPO was really was heading towards peace mode as you say (and I'm not convinced that they started moving as early as you're implying though I haven't really looked into the matter) then who can blame them? If I knew a group of alliances planed to get revenge on my alliance for things two years and a year's worth of reps gone I sure as heck would try and get to peace mode too!

[bbrownso]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296367282' post='2610600']
TPF had been mobilizing significantly and NPO had sent significant numbers into pm long before the preemptive strike. If they were completely intent on staying out and not "keeping their options open", they could have just as easily posted a DoN.
[/quote]

That's horrible logic. I haven't been completely focused on politics for quite awhile and I KNEW this was going to happen. IT was only a matter of time with how things were progressing. I would have been aware of the possibility of this happening and I'm sure NPO wanted to take as many precautions as possible.

[DogeWilliam]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296367562' post='2610613']
We paid for our transgressions.



Everyone has sympathy if GPA is attacked, they've done well in their history. We've learned from ours. We struck at no one in two years. Would you like to accuse of something new instead of something old? Something relevant to the world after 2009?

What I expected is true. The same reasonless logic is being circulated repetitively for a war that should not be. Evil will do anything to justify itself.

I will respond no further. It will not help.
[/quote]

You say evil. Are you thus admitting that you were evil, but not now? Is that what you mean? You have paid for your crimes of evilness and thus shouldn't be attacked?
1. Past actions are the best cbs in my book.
2. No one should be as naive to think you can't be attacked any time. This does not make the aggressor evil.
3. If people don't like it, they can do something about it. It seems the majority of people on planet bob are not on your side. This does not mean you have been struck by evil men. In fact the majority would be evil and well that doesn't jive.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296367282' post='2610600']
TPF had been mobilizing significantly and NPO had sent significant numbers into pm long before the preemptive strike. If they were completely intent on staying out and not "keeping their options open", they could have just as easily posted a DoN.
[/quote]
Oh come on, this tired line is used all the time by the aggressor.

"Oh, you were going to peace therefore you obviously must have been planning to go to war." Every time it's "No, no, we did expect war, but to be the defenders, not attacking in."

Every. Single. Time. And every single time they've been proven right.

Also you hardly need to post a DoN to be known as neutral, although I will admit that's a new line I've not heard. Maybe C&G should have done the same.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='DogeWilliam' timestamp='1296368101' post='2610621']
You say evil. Are you thus admitting that you were evil, but not now? Is that what you mean? You have paid for your crimes of evilness and thus shouldn't be attacked?
1. Past actions are the best cbs in my book.
2. No one should be as naive to think you can't be attacked any time. This does not make the aggressor evil.
3. If people don't like it, they can do something about it. It seems the majority of people on planet bob are not on your side. This does not mean you have been struck by evil men. In fact the majority would be evil and well that doesn't jive.
[/quote]

1. They are not when those actions have already been accounted for.
2. Yes it does, by most major religions of the world.
3. We will see, I have faith in the people of Bob to see through the lies and extortion here.

This is it for me, You'll just come up with another excuse or tangent to try to justify your warrant less aggression.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296367450' post='2610610']
Most of your speculations based on falsehoods! You say they have not changed, yet they've objectively changed in multiple ways. No wars. No blockading of spheres. There's two objective changes. That's two right there. But it's clear that you don't care about facts where as I always have.
[/quote]
Fact of the matter is that they don't have the power to start wars nor do they have the ability to blockade spheres, because to do so would be to violate the karma peace terms. Even if they had changed, they have shown no remorse for their actions, and that's what leads me to believe that they have not. All you're saying is that because they have not done things they could not have done in the first place, that means they have changed. If NPO really had changed they had plenty of time to show it. If they have truly "changed", allow me to express my sympathies to the innocent Pacificans I am slaughtering because of the apparent incompetence of their government in defining their alliance, putting old hates to rest and resolving issues that still lurk. Diplomacy matters, to ignore the world outside your immediate allies is to invite destruction. To ignore the wounds of old and write off the victims is a sure-fire way to ensure that if they're able to take the shot, they'll take it.

[quote name='Brandon Simonson' timestamp='1296367774' post='2610617']
I can vouch that NPO came to IAA to make amends and attempted to normalize diplomatic relations. As for FAN and MK, why would they go groveling so soon after a war. We both know that we'd then be hearing about how NPO was making false overtures in an attempt to destabilize those alliances for revenge or some such nonsense. Neither FAN nor MK are reasonable targets for attempts diplomacy so soon after the major conflict between those parties.

With the amount of bad blood between NPO and some alliances, the mere attempt to attempt diplomacy would be laughed at and likely mocked or viewed in a negative light. It's foolish to attempt to use this rationale for your blatantly aggressive actions against an alliance that certainly appeared to have turned over a new leaf.
[/quote]
I refuse to believe they could not have made progress with FAN and MK in the time between Karma and now had their intentions been honest and they were willing to work for it. It's the diplomacy that you have to work for that's the most rewarding, after all.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Sardonic

[DogeWilliam]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296368189' post='2610624']
1. They are not when those actions have already been accounted for.
2. Yes it does, by most major religions of the world.
3. We will see, I have faith in the people of Bob to see through the lies and extortion here.

This is it for me, You'll just come up with another excuse or tangent to try to justify your warrant less aggression.
[/quote]

We shall see. Though I disagree with you branding this war as an evil act, I think the past still has weight, I understand where you and NPO are coming from.

Edited January 30, 2011 by DogeWilliam

[Maelstrom Vortex]

@Sardonic

Why would we want to get closer to a group that intentionally protected persons who sabotaged the works of our community and otherwise made a mockery of us in our own back yard? As many have pointed out, you can approach a bully and try to befriend them, but more than likely they'll just take a swing at you.

Before we ever started on Sir Paul.. you would have had to seen the content on our forums..

Remember they had an embassy once. You think we just dropped it for no reason? You seriously think we'd want to return to the vomet of yesterday after we learned our lesson in Karma?

Credit us with some intellect will you? And when you do, we'll credit you with yours.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Letum]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296358632' post='2610302']
sit still and be killed.
[/quote]

Keep on eating those magic mushrooms.

[bbrownso]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296368239' post='2610625']
Fact of the matter is that they don't have the power to start wars nor do they have the ability to blockade spheres, because to do so would be to violate the karma peace terms. Even if they had changed, they have shown no remorse for their actions, and that's what leads me to believe that they have not. All you're saying is that because they have not done things they could not have done in the first place, that means they have changed. If NPO really had changed they had plenty of time to show it. If they have truly "changed", allow me to express my sympathies to the innocent Pacificans I am slaughtering because of the apparent incompetence of their government in defining their alliance, putting old hates to rest and resolving issues that still lurk. [b] Diplomacy matters, to ignore the world outside your immediate allies is to invite destruction. To ignore the wounds of old and write off the victims is a sure-fire way to ensure that if they're able to take the shot, they'll take it.[/b]
[/quote]

They weren't and that's my problem with your lies. NPO has reached out to alliances they wronged and they were attempting to open up a friendly dialogue. Now, they might not have attempted to be best friends with their recent enemies, but can you really blame them? You and your allies have made it abundantly clear that you viewed, and still view, NPO as a scourge. Why would they bother attempting to reconcile with people that were so adamantly anti-Pacifica?

[Letum]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296368239' post='2610625']
Diplomacy matters, to ignore the world outside your immediate allies is to invite destruction.
[/quote]

Align with us or die.

Very poignant. Good luck with trying to do that.

[DogeWilliam]

[quote name='Brandon Simonson' timestamp='1296368674' post='2610633']
They weren't and that's my problem with your lies. NPO has reached out to alliances they wronged and they were attempting to open up a friendly dialogue. Now, they might not have attempted to be best friends with their recent enemies, but can you really blame them? You and your allies have made it abundantly clear that you viewed, and still view, NPO as a scourge. Why would they bother attempting to reconcile with people that were so adamantly anti-Pacifica?
[/quote]

You show, by saying there are those out there that consider NPO a scourge, that this is all relative. To those attacking and supporting the attack on NPO, they are certainly not doing an evil act by fighting a scourge. Personally I don't consider NPO a scourge, but there's really no way to know that you wouldn't take revenge against your enemies if you had the chance, before this war. I think it's highly probable you would have attacked FAN and MK if you knew victory was assured. At least, your past and current leadership certainly were very bloodthirsty. Which hey isn't a bad thing makes planet bob interesting.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296368469' post='2610628']
@Sardonic

Why would we want to get closer to a group that intentionally protected persons who sabotaged the works of our community and otherwise made a mockery of us in our own back yard? As many have pointed out, you can approach a bully and try to befriend them, but more than likely they'll just take a swing at you.
[/quote]
The difference being you were the bully in the past. You should have apologized, in an honest and forthcoming way, rather than let the hate fester. Instead you wasted time on alliances like IAA apparently. You clearly didn't want to resolve the most important scars of the past well enough, and this is the result. Anything is possible with diplomacy, anything. If you were unsuccessful in your effort, you just weren't trying hard enough.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1296368859' post='2610636']
Align with us or die.

Very poignant. Good luck with trying to do that.
[/quote]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Try reading it again through an unbiased eye, you might gleam some wisdom from it.

[quote name='Brandon Simonson' timestamp='1296368674' post='2610633']
They weren't and that's my problem with your lies. NPO has reached out to alliances they wronged and they were attempting to open up a friendly dialogue. Now, they might not have attempted to be best friends with their recent enemies, but can you really blame them? You and your allies have made it abundantly clear that you viewed, and still view, NPO as a scourge. Why would they bother attempting to reconcile with people that were so adamantly anti-Pacifica?
[/quote]
To prevent them from taking the shot, obviously.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Sardonic

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='DogeWilliam' timestamp='1296368101' post='2610621']
You say evil. Are you thus admitting that you were evil, but not now? Is that what you mean? You have paid for your crimes of evilness and thus shouldn't be attacked?
1. Past actions are the best cbs in my book.
2. No one should be as naive to think you can't be attacked any time. This does not make the aggressor evil.
3. If people don't like it, they can do something about it. It seems the majority of people on planet bob are not on your side. This does not mean you have been struck by evil men. In fact the majority would be evil and well that doesn't jive.
[/quote]

NPO was tried, convicted and served it's sentence. So yes, with regard to any alliance that took part in the Karma conflict, we have paid. I have paid personally and I, as well as 1/2 the membership of NPO, were not even in NPO during the times that the transgressions occurred. Regardless, you cannot convict someone twice for the same offense.

Past actions are the best CB? Even if those actions have already been avenged? How many times can you avenge a wrong before becoming the criminal yourself?

Evil is not a term I would use. Unjustified, however, is.

I would disagree that the majority of people on Bob are against us at this point in time. During Karma, certainly. But as a result of our efforts to change and demonstrate that we have changed, lots of people that used to hate us now may only be indifferent. And some of those that were indifferent may actually like us a bit. Regardless, the fact is that the majority of people did not launch a completely unprovoked attack on us. DH did. Are you saying that DH is the officially sanctioned voice of the people of Bob? If so, then it is time to move to a new universe, cause the people in this one have obviously lost their minds.

As far as the move to peace mode is concerned, Sparta attacked NV with no treaty justification whatsoever. At that point, it certainly behooved NPO to take precautionary measures. And as it turned out, those measures were completely justified, since DH launched their completely unjustified aggressive war shortly thereafter.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296369008' post='2610639']
The difference being you were the bully in the past. You should have apologized, in an honest and forthcoming way, rather than let the hate fester. Instead you wasted time on alliances like IAA apparently. You clearly didn't want to resolve the most important scars of the past well enough, and this is the result. Anything is possible with diplomacy, anything. If you were unsuccessful in your effort, you just weren't trying hard enough.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Try reading it again through an unbiased eye, you might gleam some wisdom from it.
[/quote]

Again.. How do you approach someone who is being intentionally antagonistic and expect them to befriend you? If the target of your attempts to apology are not willing to accept one and forgive.. then you have no hope of progress and it's all in vain. Our reparations was part of that attempt. The fact they had an embassy with us that they later abused.. was our attempt. MK was why diplomacy failed. They had never intended for it to succeed. We were trying very hard. But you can't really achieve progress when the people you are working with are looking down their noses at you in condescension, disrespect, and disgust.

Having the largest reparations in history was not sufficient groveling?

I am putting myself into a 3rd party observer position on this. If you saw two kids fighting on the streets and one of them was a former bully and was apologizing to the kid who went, got a gang, and curb stomped them.. and the bully gave up all his lunch money and gave the gang a room at his house to play in with him... then they went in the house.. and tore it up..

You tell me through your third party unbiased observer's eye.. who would the guilt fall on for any future anger?

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Jocko Homo]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1296279089' post='2608768']Guys. You organized a coalition against us that resulted in one of the longest nuclear wars ever[/quote]

Exceeded in length only by the one you (NPO) perpetrated on FAN.

Shove that in your piehole and gag on it.

[Letum]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296369008' post='2610639']
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Try reading it again through an unbiased eye, you might gleam some wisdom from it.
[/quote]

Oh, I understand perfectly. You believe that we should have been more proactive in sucking up to those in power, because we knew they hated us and would not leave us alone if we tried leaving them alone.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1296369203' post='2610647']
Oh, I understand perfectly. You believe that we should have been more proactive in sucking up to those in power, because we knew they hated us and would not leave us alone if we tried leaving them alone.
[/quote]
There's a middle ground between "sucking up" and "open hostility" it's called frank and honest dialogue, and it's what you should have tried.