GOON spy orders

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285443290' post='2464462']
We relish the damage you caused, because we will give you far more in the long run. There will never be "white peace". Continuing to demand it won't make it happen any faster or slower.
[/quote]
I have more infra and tech than when this started and already wrecked countless GOONS nations. The only stat you guys are really affecting is my casualty count, which I like seeing go up anyways.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Methrage

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1285442621' post='2464448']
Eh, no, in fact he attacked[sup][color="#0000FF"]1[/color][/sup] the second he sent aid to Methrage.



[sup][color="#0000FF"]1[/color][/sup] NB. (before you protest) not in the "firing shotgun in face" way.
[/quote]
"Committing an act of war" is not analogous to "attacking GOONS". One is a specific action, the other is a category of actions providing a sufficient cause for war. And at the time, GOONS only had a really strong suspicion that he had aided their enemy when they authorized getting someone to commit an act of war on Jim. Simply being proven right doesn't justify the spying. It just means GOONS proved their suspicion correct.

GOONS was, in no way, acting in defense of their sovereignty when they spied on JimKongII. Jim was when he declared war on a GOONS nation after the spy op.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285442877' post='2464452']
I can read perfectly fine, good sir. Please tell me how the bolded sections below do not relate to each other since they describe, apparently, our actions as an alliance?
[/quote]"your alliance's" basically serves as an adjective, a modifier, of the subject of the sentence, the subject being "actions." It modifies a property of the "actions," namely, by stating their origin. Cortath believes your [u]actions[/u] are abhorrent and parasitic.

The statement can be reduced to the following, which perhaps you will fare better at understanding:

"The actions are abhorrent."

Edit: Cortath beat me to it and did a better job.

Edited September 25, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285443375' post='2464464']
I have more infra and tech than when this started and already wrecked countless GOONS nations. The only stat you guys are really affecting is my casualty count, which I like seeing go up anyways.
[/quote]
Then stop asking for white peace and enjoy your crusade.

[Choson]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285443509' post='2464466']
"your alliance's" basically serves as an adjective, a modifier, of the subject of the sentence, the subject being "actions." It modifies a property of the "actions," namely, by stating their origin. Cortath believes your [u]actions[/u] are abhorrent and parasitic.

The statement can be reduced to the following, which perhaps you will fare better at understanding:

"The actions are abhorrent."
[/quote]
How can one's alliance and their actions be divorced from one another?

[dalstrs]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285443390' post='2464465']
"Committing an act of war" is not analogous to "attacking GOONS". One is a specific action, the other is a category of actions providing a sufficient cause for war. And at the time, GOONS only had a really strong suspicion that he had aided their enemy when they authorized getting someone to commit an act of war on Jim. Simply being proven right doesn't justify the spying. It just means GOONS proved their suspicion correct.

GOONS was, in no way, acting in defense of their sovereignty when they spied on JimKongII. Jim was when he declared war on a GOONS nation after the spy op.
[/quote]

So as long as the aid is secret, he can't commit an act of war on GOONS because the only way to prove it to your satisfaction is to commit an act of war on him?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285443546' post='2464467']
Then stop asking for white peace and enjoy your crusade.
[/quote]
Then stop asking for sanctions and trying to portray this war as something it isn't. The war started because after Nicholai's attacks you guys refused to give him peace and said reps would be discussed after your done warring him, but would probably be more than I could afford. I decided to back up my alliance member rather than let you guys drag the war out with him, then demand reps you know we can't pay afterward.

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285443577' post='2464469']
So as long as the aid is secret, he can't commit an act of war on GOONS because the only way to prove it to your satisfaction is to commit an act of war on him?
[/quote]
He can. You just have to commit a similar act of war to prove it.

[Choson]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285443820' post='2464472']
Then stop asking for sanctions and trying to portray this war as something it isn't. The war started because after Nicholai's attacks you guys refused to give him peace and said reps would be discussed after your done warring him, but would probably be more than I could afford. I decided to back up my alliance member rather than let you guys drag the war out with him, then demand reps you know we can't pay afterward.
[/quote]
Why should [b]we[/b] be the ones to give him peace? He attacked us. You have no room to dictate terms on any level.

[dalstrs]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285443890' post='2464474']
He can. You just have to commit a similar act of war to prove it.
[/quote]

So according to you as long as I aid in secret I will never be a rogue from it because you will have to commit and act of war to prove it? This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285443573' post='2464468']
How can one's alliance and their actions be divorced from one another?
[/quote]A) Because they are not the same thing, and B) having someone of as high character as Cortath not judging an entire alliance for their entire future based on one problem. I freely admit that I could not take a stance like Cortath has, although it seems at this point that you yourself had "Make NPO hate us" as one of your goals.

[JT Jag]

Methrage, it is what it is and all the whining and hand-wringing you could ever won't change it. You (mistakenly, in our opinion and in the opinion of most alliances on Planet Bob) think you are a legitimate alliance despite your lack of meaningful diplomatic connections, and we believe this is a rogue action despite whatever semantics you might draw from our statements and despite the weak and vaguely hypocritical justifications the Red Dawn membership might provide to not sanction you.

None of this will change. Enjoy your fight. If you ever want it to end and want to listen to reason, you know where to go.

[potato]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285443890' post='2464474']
He can. You just have to commit a similar act of war to prove it.
[/quote]

It wasn't just a "hunch" though. If you're too dumb to realise there was plenty of proof before that then you should really bow out of this.

[Choson]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285444038' post='2464477']
A) Because they are not the same thing, and B) having someone of as high character as Cortath not judging an entire alliance for their entire future based on one problem. I freely admit that I could not take a stance like Cortath has, although it seems at this point that you yourself had "Make NPO hate us" as one of your goals.
[/quote]
How aren't they the same thing?

Look, you people can't have it both ways. Either our actions affect our standing as an alliance; re: tech raiding... or they don't; re: ensuring that Methrage isn't aided...

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285443820' post='2464472']
Then stop asking for sanctions and trying to portray this war as something it isn't. The war started because after Nicholai's attacks you guys [b]refused to give him peace and said reps would be discussed after your done warring him[/b], but would probably be more than I could afford. I decided to back up my alliance member rather than let you guys drag the war out with him, then demand reps you know we can't pay afterward.
[/quote]
Excuse me, but the bolded part didn't happen at all. You told us there would be no negotiation if we declared extra wars, which we [i]didn't do[/i]. We also never suggested that we would be continuing the current wars, and had no intention of doing so assuming you were going to negotiate peace with us. Instead of negotiating with us, you just declared war instead.

We [i]could have[/i] worked out a deal. We [i]would have[/i] peaced out with him. You [i]should have[/i] negotiated with us rather than immediately declaring. But you decided you wanted to fight GOONS again, so you began this fight. You are a rogue, doing whatever you want to do at all times and taking no responsibility for your actions, all under the guise of "alliance" actions, making up CBs hours or days after the fact, blaming everyone but yourself, dragging other people down with you, and believing you've done no wrong.

EDIT: Typo.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Beefspari

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285444022' post='2464476']
So according to you as long as I aid in secret I will never be a rogue from it because you will have to commit and act of war to prove it? This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.
[/quote]
I never mentioned being a rogue. Where did you get that impression from? Besides, Jim's not a rogue. He's defending his sovereignty. He declared on a GOONS nation because of the spy ops.

No, you can commit an act of war by aiding secretly, but to prove it, the enemies of those who you aided would have to commit an act of war on you (spying). You can justify it in all sorts of ways, but those are the facts. It's a pretty simple thought process, and I'm a little confused as to why you think it's an idiotic one.

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285444205' post='2464481']
It wasn't just a "hunch" though. If you're too dumb to realise there was plenty of proof before that then you should really bow out of this.
[/quote]
They had indications he had sent secret aid to someone and suspected it was Methrage. They had no proof until the spy op results got back.

Edited September 25, 2010 by DragonsPhyre

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285443905' post='2464475']
Why should [b]we[/b] be the ones to give him peace? He attacked us. You have no room to dictate terms on any level.
[/quote]
As a member of the same alliance and obligated to protect him, it involved me right away and you guys were unwilling to end it. So I did what I needed to help my alliance mate, but its still an alliance war, as I wouldn't even be fighting you guys if it wasn't for that.

[potato]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285444525' post='2464485']
They had indications he had sent secret aid to someone and suspected it was Methrage. They had no proof until the spy op results got back.
[/quote]

Of course, they had. They had the exact same proof they showed STA when the_rebel acted cute. Look how it turned out: STA, who isn't GOONS' best friends, allowed spying.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285444602' post='2464486']
As a member of the same alliance and obligated to protect him, it involved me right away and you guys were unwilling to end it. So I did what I needed to help my alliance mate, but its still an alliance war, as I wouldn't even be fighting you guys if it wasn't for that.
[/quote]
I'm sorry but it seems you've ignored Beefspari's post where she points out that you're a liar.

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285444808' post='2464488']
Of course, they had. They had the exact same proof they showed STA when the_rebel acted cute. Look how it turned out: STA, who isn't GOONS' best friends, allowed spying.
[/quote]
If they had all this proof, why would they feel the need to spy?

If spying isn't an act of war, why would they have needed STA's permission?

[potato]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285444964' post='2464490']
If they had all this proof, why would they feel the need to spy?

If spying isn't an act of war, why would they have needed STA's permission?
[/quote]

You're doing this on purpose, aren't you?

[Beefspari]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285444525' post='2464485']
I never mentioned being a rogue. Where did you get that impression from? Besides, Jim's not a rogue. He's defending his sovereignty. He declared on a GOONS nation because of the spy ops.

No, you can commit an act of war by aiding secretly, but to prove it, the enemies of those who you aided would have to commit an act of war on you (spying). You can justify it in all sorts of ways, but those are the facts. It's a pretty simple thought process, and I'm a little confused as to why you think it's an idiotic one.


They had indications he had sent secret aid to someone and suspected it was Methrage. They had no proof until the spy op results got back.
[/quote]
Secret aiding someone makes you the victim because you can't prove it without being spied on. Noted. I didn't realize secret aid had that sort of power, allowing people to send as much as they want to anyone they want. And if any action is taken against them, they're still the victim of an evil oppressive group, even if they did it.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285444602' post='2464486']
As a member of the same alliance and obligated to protect him, it involved me right away and you guys were unwilling to end it. So I did what I needed to help my alliance mate, but its still an alliance war, as I wouldn't even be fighting you guys if it wasn't for that.
[/quote]
What part of "let's negotiate" makes you believe we weren't willing to end it? We could have just declared a bunch of wars in response but we didn't. Instead we said we would negotiate something. Instead, you just declared on us and made up some flimsy CB a few hours later (which has changed every time you bring it up).

We were paid by TOP to not fight you, and it was YOUR member that declared on US. Instead of escalating it, we wanted to negotiate. You just attacked us instead. The only person unwilling to end it, then and now, is you.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285444319' post='2464482']
How aren't they the same thing?

Look, you people can't have it both ways. Either our actions affect our standing as an alliance; re: tech raiding... or they don't; re: ensuring that Methrage isn't aided...
[/quote]I'm not sure what you're going on about. GOONS and the actions they commit are two separate things, just as I am separate from the swivel chair I sit in. The items are associated, yes, and in each case one can affect the other, but they remain distinct.

[dalstrs]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285444964' post='2464490']
If they had all this proof, why would they feel the need to spy?

If spying isn't an act of war, why would they have needed STA's permission?
[/quote]

Really it's a case of:
A guy was shot with a 9mm gun.
You have a 9mm gun in your hand.
You were there at the time.
The other guy mentioned that you shot him.

Why wouldn't you do a ballistics test just to make your case that much more concrete?

Edited September 25, 2010 by dalstrs

[TypoNinja]

FFS, how do we get 45 pages on what a nuclear rogue is? Its goddamn methrage ffs, its not like this is the first time he's done something like this.

Has the level of discourse degenerated so far that CN will give up simple standards like helping each other out with nuclear rogues because its unthinkable to agree with your political opponents in public?

I am very disappointed in some of you* I had thought that even rivals and opponents could work together on things this basic, sadly I was wrong.


*You know exactly who you are.