GOON spy orders

[Phetion]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285444964' post='2464490']
If they had all this proof, why would they feel the need to spy?

[/quote]

Because if they didn't you'd be running with the line "Where's the ocular proof?" instead of the crap you're trying to argue now.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285445016' post='2464491']
You're doing this on purpose, aren't you?
[/quote]Yeah, I know, right?

I think it's pretty obvious why GOONS would ask STA's permission - They didn't want STA to turn on them like they turned on \m/. Oh man, remember that, that was ugly. Tyga destroyed half their NS with his mind. I don't know anyone who would want to mess with that.

Or, you know, spy operations are considered an act of war and have been considered as such ever since they existed.

But I do prefer the first theory.

[Phetion]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285445403' post='2464501']
Yeah, I know, right?

I think it's pretty obvious why GOONS would ask STA's permission - They didn't want STA to turn on them like they turned on \m/. Oh man, remember that, that was ugly. Tyga destroyed half their NS with his mind. I don't know anyone who would want to mess with that.

Or, you know, [b]spy operations are considered an act of war[/b] and have been considered as such ever since they existed.

But I do prefer the first theory.
[/quote]

And so is aiding one's enemy. Tell me what would have happened if people went around "secretly" aiding FAN? Even voting for a senator was cause enough for an alliance to be rolled.

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285445016' post='2464491']
You're doing this on purpose, aren't you?
[/quote]
Yes.

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285445165' post='2464496']
Really it's a case of:A guy was shot with a 9mm gun.You have a 9mm gun in your hand. You were there at the time.The other guy mentioned that you shot him.Why wouldn't you do a ballistics test just to make your case that much more concrete?
[/quote]
Are the facts of the case not strong enough to stand on their own or do you just like trying to make analogies to match the situation?

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1285445342' post='2464500']
Because if they didn't you'd be running with the line "Where's the ocular proof?" instead of the crap you're trying to argue now.
[/quote]
Probably.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1285445617' post='2464502']
And so is aiding one's enemy. Tell me what would have happened if people went around "secretly" aiding FAN? Even voting for a senator was cause enough for an alliance to be rolled.
[/quote]

His argument is, you can't prove the act of war without committing one yourself, so they quite obviously cancel out (I couldn't help but laugh as I wrote this).

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285443573' post='2464468']
How can one's alliance and their actions be divorced from one another?
[/quote]
They aren't being divorced. Cortath is simply taking more than your actions in the Red Safari into consideration when forming his opinion of your alliance. Should you continue to engage in actions which are abhorrent and parasitic then it would be reasonable to assume that his opinion of your alliance will shift to reflect that.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1285445617' post='2464502']
And so is aiding one's enemy. Tell me what would have happened if people went around "secretly" aiding FAN? Even voting for a senator was cause enough for an alliance to be rolled.
[/quote]Right. The question stems from the "what if," what if the guy is innocent, you just committed an act of war. I don't believe it is acceptable to justify things after the fact, you have to be justified going into it.

I haven't seen the 'other evidence' GOONS claims to have and I am not judging this instance, but answering your simple example. I believe the citizens of this world should be entitled to a degree of privacy, without a sort of global police state where you folks at the top can conduct spy operations without due cause.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285444393' post='2464483']
Excuse me, but the bolded part didn't happen at all. You told us there would be no negotiation if we declared extra wars, which we [i]didn't do[/i]. We also never suggested that we would be continuing the current wars, and had no intention of doing so assuming you were going to negotiate peace with us. Instead of negotiating with us, you just declared war instead.

We [i]could have[/i] worked out a deal. We [i]would have[/i] peaced out with him. You [i]should have[/i] negotiated with us rather than immediately declaring. But you decided you wanted to fight GOONS again, so you began this fight. You are a rogue, doing whatever you want to do at all times and taking no responsibility for your actions, all under the guise of "alliance" actions, making up CBs hours or days after the fact, blaming everyone but yourself, dragging other people down with you, and believing you've done no wrong.

EDIT: Typo.
[/quote]
You said reps would be discussed when the war is done, although you admitted they would probably be more than either of us could pay, as you said it would probably be $9m and this was right after my war with VE ended. So that was a lot for a nation of his size, as the damage he did was under $1m at the time probably. Talking with you was me trying to negotiate btw.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285445403' post='2464501']
Or, you know, spy operations are considered an act of war and have been considered as such ever since they existed.
[/quote]
Aiding my enemy is an act of war too. Spying on you to prove it is an act of war, but it's really more of an [i]acknowledgment of war[/i] since you already began it. The fact that I spied on you doesn't change the fact that you began it by aiding my enemy.

If we had been wrong and spied an innocent person, you might have a case. But we weren't wrong. We proved it. Any facts we had before that, no matter how solid we believed them to be, someone would have argued that they weren't enough. In fact, there are even people who believe even with all the facts we had we shouldn't even be allowed to spy on people, despite being able to prove that aid was sent on the same day, that the person changed teams, and that the person HAS sent secret aid to SOMEONE.

So yes, we knew beforehand that he did it, and it was enough for us to acknowledge a state of war with him. But to try and defend himself, he put up a note saying that if he was spied on he'd consider it an act of war. Convenient since he already committed an act of war against us. We spied to [i]prove to everyone that we were right[/i], and that he began the conflict. Trying to turn him into a victim when he started the fight is ludicrous.

[potato]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285445403' post='2464501']
Yeah, I know, right?

I think it's pretty obvious why GOONS would ask STA's permission - They didn't want STA to turn on them like they turned on \m/. Oh man, remember that, that was ugly. Tyga destroyed half their NS with his mind. I don't know anyone who would want to mess with that.

Or, you know, spy operations are considered an act of war and have been considered as such ever since they existed.

But I do prefer the first theory.
[/quote]

You're also known for spewing inane drivel and terrible conspiracy theories so feel free to keep up with your nonsense.

[dalstrs]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285445684' post='2464504']

Are the facts of the case not strong enough to stand on their own or do you just like trying to make analogies to match the situation?

[/quote]

Can you not read? The facts of the case were strong enough on there own. We had evidence and a witness. It hurts nothing to get a confession as well.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285446101' post='2464513']
You're also known for spewing inane drivel and terrible conspiracy theories so feel free to keep up with your nonsense.
[/quote]Are you implying that spy operations haven't always been considered an act of war, or are you just mindlessly making yet another character attack?

Beefspari: See my post previous to this one for clarification.

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285446053' post='2464512']If we had been wrong and spied an innocent person, you might have a case.[/quote]
Just out of curiosity, if he had been proven innocent after the spy op, but still declared on that GOONS nation because of it, what would you guys be doing?

[dalstrs]

[quote name='DragonsPhyre' timestamp='1285446336' post='2464520']
Just out of curiosity, if he had been proven innocent after the spy op, but still declared on that GOONS nation because of it, what would you guys be doing?
[/quote]

Our case was strong enough that we didn't have to worry about this.

[Phetion]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285446019' post='2464509']
Right. The question stems from the "what if," what if the guy is innocent, you just committed an act of war. I don't believe it is acceptable to justify things after the fact, you have to be justified going into it.

I haven't seen the 'other evidence' GOONS claims to have and I am not judging this instance, but answering your simple example. I believe the citizens of this world should be entitled to a degree of privacy, without a sort of global police state where you folks at the top can conduct spy operations without due cause.
[/quote]


Yeah, but the thing is. He did do it.

I would sympathise with your point of view if GOONS had been going around harassing innocent folk, but they have not. They've scored 3/3 finding out who has been aiding their enemy (whether you deem them alliance or rogue, they are at war with GOONS whichever way you look at it).

If GOONS had been wrong in spying Jim, then yeah, this would have warranted an apology/reparations, or even a war that was legitimately justified. But the simple fact of the matter is he did do it.

Answer me this please: GOONS and allies attack Jim conventionally, citing they believed he had aided Methrage, but they hadn't bothered gathering the absolute, concrete proof of a spy report. What would you say?

Certainly, you'd have a feasible defence. Certainly you could argue his innocence.

Now answer me this: Which situation would you have preferred? The one which has unfolded before us, or the hypothetical one I described above.

It's neither here nor there, Jim instigated this situation and should be brought to face the consequences. He sought to make it escalate it to an overt fight.

Nobody is to blame other than himself. He created the predicament he is facing now. That is it. End of story.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285446032' post='2464510']
[b]You said reps would be discussed when the war is done[/b], although you admitted they would probably be more than either of us could pay, as you said it would probably be $9m and this was right after my war with VE ended. So that was a lot for a nation of his size, as the damage he did was under $1m at the time probably. Talking with you was me trying to negotiate btw.
[/quote]
Really? I said that? You sure you aren't just lying again? Here, here's every single post I made from that thread up until you declared war:

"If you're going with "we're tech raiding GOONS" then we'll be defending ourselves against your alliance very shortly. I would recommend reconsidering it."

"Good. [b]Once the peace offers clear we can discuss reps[/b] for your friend's boredom."

"I'm wondering if your 4k NS nation can even pay the 9m+ reps we'll be asking for at this point.

EDIT: Oh you're 6k NS now."

In fact you spent part of page one and two saying "Well GOONS should probably negotiate then!" even after we said multiple times we would be doing so once people peace. You didn't give anyone time to peace, you just declared war. We never got to the negotiation point. I said we'd be asking for 9m, and you could've talked us down or agreed to pay it over a long period of time or even through tech deals. But did you do that? No, you just immediately declared war and have been lying about how it happened ever since.

Now where did I say the wars would be continuing? Please find this post for me. Because I'm quite sure it doesn't exist. Here, I'll provide you with the link: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91642&st=0

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1285446480' post='2464525']
Yeah, but the thing is. He did do it.
[/quote]What I'm trying to say is that this fact does not validate the spy operations. What validates them is if GOONS has a sufficient case before hand to conduct them.

And there is an inherent risk in these situations that you [i]could be wrong[/i], which is precisely why you make the case as watertight as possible before conducting a spy op, to minimize the risk that you commit an act of war on an innocent. Yes, the spy op will serve as the proverbial nail in the coffin, but only if you are right. Knowing that you happened to be right is not sufficient to justify the spy op after the fact.

(Providing that GOONS did have a sufficient case, I am basically arguing that GOONS was in the right on this particular point, but for different reasons than are being argued. Just so you're aware not every one of my posts is hating on GOONS, though it seems popular to not read and just assume as such.)

Edited September 25, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285446857' post='2464528']
Really? I said that? You sure you aren't just lying again? Here, here's every single post I made from that thread up until you declared war:

"If you're going with "we're tech raiding GOONS" then we'll be defending ourselves against your alliance very shortly. I would recommend reconsidering it."

"Good. [b]Once the peace offers clear we can discuss reps[/b] for your friend's boredom."

"I'm wondering if your 4k NS nation can even pay the 9m+ reps we'll be asking for at this point.

EDIT: Oh you're 6k NS now."

In fact you spent part of page one and two saying "Well GOONS should probably negotiate then!" even after we said multiple times we would be doing so once people peace. You didn't give anyone time to peace, you just declared war. We never got to the negotiation point. I said we'd be asking for 9m, and you could've talked us down or agreed to pay it over a long period of time or even through tech deals. But did you do that? No, you just immediately declared war and have been lying about how it happened ever since.

Now where did I say the wars would be continuing? Please find this post for me. Because I'm quite sure it doesn't exist. Here, I'll provide you with the link: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91642&st=0
[/quote]
It was discussed on IRC or PMs in-game as well if I recall correctly.

[Count Rupert]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1285446480' post='2464525']

I would sympathise with your point of view if GOONS had been going around harassing innocent folk, but they have not. [/quote]

Well, an argument could be made that they had given they had been sending and cancelling aid offers to other nations prior to settling on Jim. A method of fact finding now deemed [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92691]illegal[/url]

[Phetion]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285446877' post='2464529']
What I'm trying to say is that this fact does not validate the spy operations. What validates them is if GOONS has a sufficient case before hand to conduct them.

And there is an inherent risk in these situations that you [i]could be wrong[/i], which is precisely why you make the case as watertight as possible before conducting a spy op, to minimize the risk that you commit an act of war on an innocent. Yes, the spy op will serve as the proverbial nail in the coffin, but only if you are right. Knowing that you happened to be right is not sufficient to justify the spy op after the fact.
[/quote]


OK, perhaps if this was the first instance of GOONS spying for this purpose then yeah. However, they had successfully gathered enough hard evidence for two alliances which aren't exactly known for their support of GOONS to allow them to gather the indisputable proofs. Moreso in the case of STA.

If they were randomly spying nations to try and catch them out, like I said before, I would be far more sympathetic of your viewpoint. You would have a leg to stand on and an argument to throw at them, however, they haven't. They've hit the bullseye, or perhaps jackpot is more fitting considering the general outcome, each and every time.

I don't think I can stress this enough, they were correct every single time.

You avoided my questions in my post above, but how about this one.

What would you say is enough evidence to warrant the spy attack to gather the concrete proof?

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285446980' post='2464531']
It was discussed on IRC or PMs in-game as well if I recall correctly.
[/quote]
Find it then, because what I just showed you in the thread says the exact opposite of what you claim. I very clearly said we would be peacing out and negotiating reps shortly after. You're claiming I said we would war you instead. Unless you can find that, you're just lying and trying to make yourself the victim again, when you very clearly ignored our attempts at negotiation and just declared on us instead.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285446980' post='2464531']
It was discussed on IRC or PMs in-game as well if I recall correctly.
[/quote]

Would you mind providing logs?

I'm sorry, but you're not the type of person whose word I would accept.

[RePePe]

Time and time again, GOONS seems to take pleasure in their rallying call of "Do something about it."

The sovereign alliance of Kerberos Nexus has taken quite an admirable stance of doing just that: standing up for what they believe is right and doing something, even up against the odds.

It's a good thing that someone can remind us that numbers aren't always the best indicator of roguery, and that sometimes a large party can be more becoming of the actions of a rogue, that numbers do in no way legitimize your actions.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1285447416' post='2464537']
Time and time again, GOONS seems to take pleasure in their rallying call of "Do something about it."

The sovereign alliance of Kerberos Nexus has taken quite an admirable stance of doing just that: standing up for what they believe is right and doing something, even up against the odds.

It's a good thing that someone can remind us that numbers aren't always the best indicator of roguery, and that sometimes a large party can be more becoming of the actions of a rogue, that numbers do in no way legitimize your actions.
[/quote]

Standing up for what? Nuclear asshats? This is Methrage were talking about. Doing stupid !@#$ is not exactly new for him. Hes not a pargaon of virtue, hes a paragon of what not to do in CN.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1285447790' post='2464539']
Standing up for what? Nuclear asshats? This is Methrage were talking about. Doing stupid !@#$ is not exactly new for him. Hes not a pargaon of virtue, hes a paragon of what not to do in CN.
[/quote]
Standing up for my membership without paying unreasonable reps to those who would try extorting them.