In Response to Recent Drama

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1281377241' post='2407914']
Fixed it for ya.
[/quote]
Explain yourself.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='ConeBone69' timestamp='1281377104' post='2407906']
So then just call it what it is, you didn't want to be treaty partners anymore and this was the opportune time to get out. It wasn't a hard decision and you guys weren't reluctant about doing it, you were looking for a reason to cancel.
[/quote]

Whoa what the hell? You left MK? Didn't even know.

But yeah, that's what I've been saying this entire time.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Classy move. It would have just been easier to declare neutrality because of VE on one side and NSO on the other. Hell, VE attacked to give you a way out without taking a PR hit. Never snatch a (PR) victory away from a defeat.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1281377241' post='2407914']
Fixed it for ya.
[/quote]

I'd like to know how we're being two-faced. You seem to be running this line that we stabbed you in the back or something. Let me tell you something: stabbing in the back requires an intent and an action. The action is questionable at best, and you have absolutely no proof of intent. I hope to god that you're not throwing this party line down to regular GATO members because that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

[Merrie Melodies]

I have read through this whole mess of a thread more or less. If what I am about to say has been brought up already I apologize for missing it.

@ GATO, you damn well knew way before you signed this treaty that NSO takes in those on E/PZi lists, those at war, those being persecuted. They have from day one. It has also been a threat to their security from day one, a risk they where willing to take. When you signed your treaty with NSO knowing full well they took these risks you signed up to take the same risk.
Your reason for termination is utter crap. My opinion of you had been on the rise for a long time now but, after reading this I am forced to say "WAE"

Congrats on washing years of work away with a single thread.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[GulagArchipelago]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281377598' post='2407924']
I'd like to know how we're being two-faced. You seem to be running this line that we stabbed you in the back or something. Let me tell you something: stabbing in the back requires an intent and an action. The action is questionable at best, and you have absolutely no proof of intent. I hope to god that you're not throwing this party line down to regular GATO members because that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
[/quote]

Yes, not telling us of how you guys are handling the rogue problem. Not telling us that you guys were treatying IRON. Not giving us intelligence when we needed em. Refusing Omni's offer to mediate between two parties. Blame your gov (or lack of gov) for not being there with for ur AA Jren.

Edited August 9, 2010 by GulagArchipelago

[Alterego]

[quote name='ConeBone69' timestamp='1281377448' post='2407919']
Explain yourself.
[/quote]
Whatever [b]opinion[/b] he has of NSO he openly admits he is 2 faced and a coward.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Alterego

[Lanore]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281376707' post='2407889']
You know what? I'm actually fine with this. I don't hate anyone in your alliance and I'm sure my fellow Sith can say the same. They probably don't hold you guys in high regard, though. But I'm happy that out of all of the GATO officials, you spoke the truth. I appreciate straight forward honesty.
[/quote]
[b][center][Color=#004ce0]Thank you for your understanding. I honestly expected the worst flames to come from the Sith.[/color][/center][/b]

[TehChron]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281363567' post='2407423']
Its pretty funny that this post about being a good friend and whatnot comes several pages after you folks have admitted to all but ignoring GATO for months. Granted, it was also said that you were now on the path of making getting to know them better a priority. Its just funny how it stacks up against the "being a good friend" argument though.
[/quote]Really?

Because we didn't.

We've been knee deep in daily talks with GATO government [i]for months[/i]. Saying otherwise is a blatant lie.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1281377830' post='2407928']
Yes, not telling us of how you guys are handling the rogue problem. Not telling us that you guys were treatying IRON. Not giving us intelligence when we needed em. Refusing Omni's offer to mediate between two parties. Blame your gov (or lack of gov) for not being there with you Jren.
[/quote]

I'm sorry for lack of expediency on the issue, but trust me, we didn't intend for you to find out through your other allies. Yes, we were a bit slow in informing everyone, but that's because we literally had one government member on at the time; which was Heft.

I'm sorry we didn't tell you that we were allying IRON, but that was like half a year ago. Are you telling me that you've had these qualms for half a year and didn't raise it until after you canceled?

And I don't think we refused Omni's offer to mediate. RV will have proof of that we specifically asked Omni to mediate.

All in all, you have failed in this endeavor. We have not backstabbed anyone, nor had we any intention to do so. If you guys wanted to cancel because we were insufferable, then just say so. Stop hiding behind weak excuses.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Jrenster

[TehChron]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281364065' post='2407444']
And give the Sith's history with truth and doing the right thing, I should just accept your word over someone else's. Gotcha.

Taking your explanation for what it is worth, let me pose the question to you. If you are told a certain action will cause a war, by someone you KNOW not to be one to bluff. Then you commit that action without 1st talking to your allies... How does that NOT violate article 2? Honest question. See if you can give me a good answer.
[/quote]
Right, so for you, Rebel Virginia is a credible, trustworthy source of information all of a sudden. And Heft equates the entirety of NSO leadership.

We were over this before when Ivan and Dopp were in charge, and that only the Sith Emperor (ie, Lintwad) and maybe Dark Lord (Heggo) have any real authority to do anything like that.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1281377211' post='2407911']
[b][center][color="#004ce0"]
If it is any reconciliation, I likely won't ever get elected because of these posts. [/color][/center][/b]
[/quote]

Which, in some respects, is a damn shame. You've at least got the spine to come forward and call things as they were. The same thing can not really be said of many of your colleagues right now.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281377753' post='2407927']
I have read through this whole mess of a thread more or less. If what I am about to say has been brought up already I apologize for missing it.

@ GATO, you damn well knew way before you signed this treaty that NSO takes in those on E/PZi lists, those at war, those being persecuted. They have from day one. It has also been a treat to their security from day one, a risk they where willing to take. When you signed your treaty with NSO knowing full well they took these risks you signed up to take the same risk.
Your reason for termination is utter crap. My opinion of you had been on the rise for a long time now but, after reading this I am forced to say "WAE"

Congrats on washing years of work away with a single thread.
[/quote]
Yes. We know they do and did under the pretense, that they won't defend them. They'll try to gain peace for them, but not attack those attacking them. But, thats not what they did, did they? Nope.

The only crap here, is your entire post.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281365000' post='2407490']
Heft was just chilling in the channel the following morning. He obviously didn't think we were important enough to be informed. If Heft has enough power to send all of NSO to war then he has the power to violate a treaty or to simply send a message to an ally.
[/quote]
He doesn't.

Thats kind of where the argument of "zomg injustice" is coming from. And in addition, he was foolish enough to not perceive the threat until it became bluntly obvious.

You can't really use Heft messing up (not a novelty in this situation) as an excuse for your inferiority complex or whatever it is you're doing here. It just doesn't work.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='R3nowned' timestamp='1281372162' post='2407752']
From the looks of things, you haven't served in FA. Either that, or you're just being dense. Treaties don't get voided over technicalities. That clause is there - in my opinion - purely for tradition. If you're signing a PIAT+ with someone, you tell them stuff so you.. you know, keep the relationship going. A treaty is a mere formalisation of what two alliances already feel for each other. (OOC: think of it like marriage - a simple formalisation of what's already there). Clearly, the spirit of the treaty was already dead if GATO used a technicality to cancel the treaty.

NSO notified them as soon as they could (OOC: you don't notify people at 4am in the morning. You're meant to be asleep). If GATO knew earlier than NSO that NSO was going to be attacked, then [i]it's up to GATO to notify them of the impending attack[/i].
[/quote]

Funny, ICAN say the same thing to you here, what is to say that treaties don't get voided over technicalities? Hmm? Nothing. Clearly, as you know, (OOC) relationships break due to miscommunication (mainly so) and it would seem that there was a large miscommunication between GATO and NSO. How about you hear from your other good friends that your (OOC) spouse was cheating on you and not from him/herself? Hmm, right, it doesn't make you a happy camper eh?

NSO did NOT notify GATO as soon as they could because any good ally would tell each other that... "Hey, we are having some current issues with 'blank' alliance and it could turn bad. Just thought I would LET YOU KNOW." Clearly NSO did not have any intentions of doing so...

Also, what is to say or prevent NSO from making a mistake like this again down the road?

Edited August 9, 2010 by SoADarthCyfe6

[Sir Sci]

Okay, if anyone is seriously trying to paint the NSO as a BAD ALLY, just stop. They weren't.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281366013' post='2407535']
Facts:

1. Hoo informed Heft that it would be war if war aid was sent to the rogue.
2. Heft sent war aid to the rogue.
3. GATO was informed by allies (ICAN, VE, etc.)
3a. In step 3, the NSO was not one of these allies that informed us.
3b. Also within step 3, Heft was online and would have been able to shoot one of us a PM. All it would have needed to have been was a "hey, stuff is going on. We'll tell you later." That would have sufficed.
4. Omni goes to Heft and asks what's going on. Heft's response is "lol."
5. GATO realized that the NSO has broken the treaty.
6. War.
7. GATO announces that the NSO broke the treaty.
8. Community goes OMG, I can't believe that GATO isn't following a treaty that the NSO already broke!

What I am really struggling with here are statements that say that they couldn't inform us about a "surprise attack" or that they couldn't inform us about a war that they didn't see coming themselves. Hoo told Heft that there was going to be a war. Heft KNEW war was coming. So, if it is indeed true that the NSO didn't know war was going to happen, then that would mean that Heft didn't even tell the rest of the alliance about what was going on when it happened. So, the question is, did Heft inform other government members of the NSO about what was going on? If he did, then the claim that NSO didn't know is bogus, and they know it. If Heft didn't inform the rest of the NSO then perhaps we, GATO, are wrong, other than...hmmmmm...that would be a failing of the NSO's government and essentially an admission that their government was too dysfunctional to get the word to us. Either way, NSO broke the treaty.

tl:dr? Hoo told NSO there would be war. NSO didn't tell us. Treaty says they would.

EDIT:

Exactly, we didn't cancel this because we were afraid of getting rolled, because we weren't even be asked to go to war. WE DIDN'T CANCEL! The treaty is null and void by the NSO's actions.
[/quote]
Heft is not the entire NSO government. Neither is Rebel Virginia.

Neither of them shared it with the rest us until the point where we got around to telling you.

Your entire argument falls flat due to your attempts at generalization.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Chron

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281378225' post='2407949']
Yes. We know they do and did under the pretense, that they won't defend them. They'll try to gain peace for them, but not attack those attacking them. But, thats not what they did, did they? Nope.

The only crap here, is your entire post.
[/quote]
Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together would know that with the member acceptance policy of NSO a issue like this was just a matter of time. Are you know going to tell me GATO's government is that dense?

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281333462' post='2406751']
Or that the people who told us they'd support us no matter what path we took: VE, ODN, Athens, and even our little protectorate ICAN told us important info we needed to know. While we were an after thought to NSO.
[/quote]

I don't think anybody has actually caught this yet, though to be fair I've only gone through the first 6 pages. But did nobody notice that they're complaining that NSO wasn't the first one to tell them but VE told them before NSO. VE, who declared war on NSO told them that they were declaring war on NSO before NSO could tell them that they were about to get stomped. This might be the worst defense I've ever heard.

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281378471' post='2407955']
Okay, if anyone is seriously trying to paint the NSO as a BAD ALLY, just stop. They weren't.
[/quote]
Then tell your AC to stop saying that NSO abandoned and back stabbed you guys.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281378388' post='2407953']
Funny, ICAN say the same thing to you here, what is to say that treaties don't get voided over technicalities? Hmm? Nothing. Clearly, as you know, (OOC) relationships break due to miscommunication (mainly so) and it would seem that there was a large miscommunication between GATO and NSO. How about you hear from your other good friends that your (OOC) spouse was cheating on you and not from him/herself? Hmm, right, it doesn't make you a happy camper eh?

NSO did NOT notify GATO as soon as they could because any good ally would tell each other that... "Hey, we are having some current issues with 'blank' alliance and it could turn bad. Just though I would LET YOU KNOW." Clearly NSO did not have any intentions of doing so...

Also, what is to say or prevent NSO from making a mistake like this again down the road?
[/quote]

You forget that we didn't tell any of our other allies. Stop making it seem as if we forgot to tell GATO specifically. We didn't tell all of our allies because we didn't think that was on the top of the priority list at the moment. We had two active Sith Lords available and both were working on the RoK issue and both were getting pretty damn tired. Forgive them for not remembering to tell our allies post-haste.

GATO government members are legitimately the only people that have gotten their feelings hurt over this. The rest of our friends are being just that: friends. They are assisting us wherever they can, and offering us whatever advice they have.

Stop running this stupid line because it's getting worse and worse the more I read it.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281367253' post='2407583']
Hoo clearly says that aiding someone who was attacking their protectorate would be an act of war. He says they would respond to that act of war with war. I'm not saying that RoK acted perfectly. I'm not saying that I agree entirely with RoK's actions. They really SHOULD have been more diplomatic. What I AM saying is that the NSO was clearly informed that if they sent war aid that there would be war. Period. NSO sent war aid. The chain of events is rather self explanatory.

Perhaps NSO didn't expect for it to go down as fast as it did. That didn't change the fact that the NSO knew what was going on. That doesn't change the fact that the treaty stipulates that GATO would be informed of the situation.

Run from a conflict that you didn't even ask us to join...that's the thing. OBVIOUSLY we didn't cancel the treaty because we were afraid of getting attacked, because you didn't even ask us to join. The treaty was voided by the NSO's actions.



So, you held negotiations with RoK. You couldn't have told us about THOSE? By the fact that you had to have negotiations shows that you knew something was going on.



I fail to see how this is a change in reasoning. I also still am struggling with the whole "war we didn't know about," since the facts clearly show you that you did know it was coming.
[/quote]
Facts show Heft and RV had a vague inkling there was a slight problem. Then they went to bed without any of the rest of government knowing about it.

Your evidence is just baseless speculation and random generalization that utterly ignores the context of the situation. Yeah heft aided a rogue. Yeah thats getting us rolled.

But he decided to do that on his own. If Lintwad didn't authorize it directly, it is not an act of the New Sith Order.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281378506' post='2407957']
Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together would know that with the member acceptance policy of NSO a issue like this was just a matter of time. Are you know going to tell me GATO's government is that dense?
[/quote]

No their government was warned time and time again that NSO had a penchant for doing things that pissed people off and defied accepted norms, and that one of these days the two would combine to get them rolled, so you probably shouldn't stick around waiting for it.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281378506' post='2407957']
Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together would know that with the member acceptance policy of NSO a issue like this was just a matter of time. Are you know going to tell me GATO's government is that dense?
[/quote]
Are you telling me that NSO's government aimed all along with this policy to start a war?

[TehChron]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281368167' post='2407619']
And it would have been absolutely impossible for any government member of the NSO to inform us during the entire course of Sunday, right?
[/quote]
Well, considering there was pretty much no government member aware of the situation up until the point we told you, yeah. It would have been impossible.

Thats what we've been saying.