In Response to Recent Drama

[Sir Sci]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281366151' post='2407539']
We told Hoo we would protect a member without proof, before attacks commenced. Yet, do you think Hoo believed NSO would attack him? No. Because we use DIPLOMACY! Not that hard to understand folks. I've never expected GATO to defend us, but I didn't expect you to run with your tail between your legs from a conflict we asked you to stay out of. Some things never change.
[/quote]

Hoo clearly says that aiding someone who was attacking their protectorate would be an act of war. He says they would respond to that act of war with war. I'm not saying that RoK acted perfectly. I'm not saying that I agree entirely with RoK's actions. They really SHOULD have been more diplomatic. What I AM saying is that the NSO was clearly informed that if they sent war aid that there would be war. Period. NSO sent war aid. The chain of events is rather self explanatory.

Perhaps NSO didn't expect for it to go down as fast as it did. That didn't change the fact that the NSO knew what was going on. That doesn't change the fact that the treaty stipulates that GATO would be informed of the situation.

Run from a conflict that you didn't even ask us to join...that's the thing. OBVIOUSLY we didn't cancel the treaty because we were afraid of getting attacked, because you didn't even ask us to join. The treaty was voided by the NSO's actions.

[QUOTE]Actually, no. We did not know that there was going to be war. RV held talks with Hoo Saturday night and it appeared that progress was made. We believed that the situation was still negotiable. We even had a plan of action; until seconds later we found out that people were going to attack us. We assumed RoK were reasonable people. Assumed too much, to be honest.
[/QUOTE]

So, you held negotiations with RoK. You couldn't have told us about THOSE? By the fact that you had to have negotiations shows that you knew something was going on.

[QUOTE]You guys seem to change your reasoning a lot. First it's because we didn't tell you about the aid. Next it's because we didn't tell you about a war we didn't know about. You were just trying to find an excuse to cancel weren't you? Are we that insufferable?[/QUOTE]

I fail to see how this is a change in reasoning. I also still am struggling with the whole "war we didn't know about," since the facts clearly show you that you did know it was coming.

[kerschbs]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281366281' post='2407547']
I knew it. You [i]were[/i] just trying to find an excuse to cancel on us.
[/quote]

Uh, I'm not a GATO member any longer. I've been against the NSO treaty since you expected us to defend IRON.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281367188' post='2407582']
Where is it defined that you have to go to war with someone to stick with them? When Polar essentially flipped off MK and GR and RoK to DoW \m/ and put every ally involved in the worst possible position, they stuck by Polar. Was there some public outrage? Yes. Was Polar CLEARLY in that moment on the opposite side of their friends? Yes. Did the friendships and relationships survive? Yes. When I learned of this situation yesterday, I had a long chat with IAA and GATO officials, with the sole intent of saving our relationship with them because I was resigned to the fact that GATO and IAA would fall on the other side of this war. It is that kind of love I have for both of those alliances that drove me to pre-emptively fix what was about to become at least a minor rift. THAT is sticking with someone.
[/quote]

Yes. Good thing GATO came to us to try to fix this relationship this time around, instead of hastily canceling it.

Come to think of it, I've never seen GATO work this quick before. I mean, it's always really slow with you guys because of voting and all that stuff. So kudos for your expediency on this matter.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1281367325' post='2407585']
Uh, I'm not a GATO member any longer. I've been against the NSO treaty since you expected us to defend IRON.
[/quote]

Actually we didn't expect you to defend IRON. At all. In fact, we made this whole counter declaration where we stated that we don't want any of our allies to defend IRON.

We did the same thing here.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281367081' post='2407578']
I feel like I'm talking like a broken record. I know that was your point. I have addressed that point several times, but it has fallen on deaf ears. That's not what you were talking about though, and you seemed misinformed. But I digress.
[/quote]

Broken record? Much like your herp derp evidence lyric? You want evidence that he was roguing innocent nations? Look at the war screens. Did a TENE nation spy on him? Yes. Was he defending himself by fighting that TENE nation? Nope. He fought two completely OTHER nations to defend himself from the guy who spied him (who HAS to be in his range to spy him btw). And somehow, in the unequaled wisdom of you Sith, you reached the epicly intelligent conclusion that his wars were defensive. That, my friend, is sheer genius on your part.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

I really don't know why GATO allies are attempting to defend this move. GATO $%&@ed up and I'd be embarrassed to be allied to them. You sign a MDP level treaty and a certain level of spirit and friendship is signed along with it. This friendship goes beyond the letter and word of any piece of e-paper. What GATO has done is shown they hold no respect for any treaty they currently hold. It's all a matter of convenience for them. Perhaps that LoSS treaty will continue to be special. We all know they love to switch sides before a major beat down. So congratulations GATO on !@#$@#$ up any chance of securing future treaties. You'd have to be a fool to sign with you.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281367253' post='2407583']
So, you held negotiations with RoK. You couldn't have told us about THOSE? By the fact that you had to have negotiations shows that you knew something was going on.

I fail to see how this is a change in reasoning. I also still am struggling with the whole "war we didn't know about," since the facts clearly show you that you did know it was coming.
[/quote]

RV was talking to Hoo at like 3AM EST. None of you were on. Heft was the only one on that morning and I'm pretty sure he was busy with other stuff to remember to inform our allies.

And yes, we knew about the war that was coming. That is why we started sending people into PM at 5PM on a Sunday afternoon. An hour or two before they declared.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281367428' post='2407590']
Broken record? Much like your herp derp evidence lyric? You want evidence that he was roguing innocent nations? Look at the war screens. Did a TENE nation spy on him? Yes. Was he defending himself by fighting that TENE nation? Nope. He fought two completely OTHER nations to defend himself from the guy who spied him (who HAS to be in his range to spy him btw). And somehow, in the unequaled wisdom of you Sith, you reached the epicly intelligent conclusion that his wars were defensive. That, my friend, is sheer genius on your part.
[/quote]

I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about RV was trying to negotiate with Hoo after Heft dropped the ball. But Hoo didn't want to. It's funny at how all of you guys were crying about this diplomacy stuff in the past, and yet you are completely overlooking that right now.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

The fact that a 16 man alliance had informed GATO before NSO, a 169 man alliance was incapable of telling GATO what's up, should be enough said there.

The treaty is void due to the inability to honor agreements made between the respective allies.

I support GATO to the end

o/ GATO
o/ ICAN

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281367638' post='2407600']
I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about RV was trying to negotiate with Hoo after Heft dropped the ball. But Hoo didn't want to. It's funny at how all of you guys were crying about this diplomacy stuff in the past, and yet you are completely overlooking that right now.
[/quote]

Once again, have you met Hoo? He means what he says. Im sorry your gov member dropped the ball. But drop it, he did. The consequences were spelled out. Welcome to the consequences.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281367802' post='2407607']
Once again, have you met Hoo? He means what he says. Im sorry your gov member dropped the ball. But drop it, he did. The consequences were spelled out. Welcome to the consequences.
[/quote]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. I would've done the same thing in their shoes. A true hegemony isn't a hegemony unless you put the boot to those that you hate.

Just don't say that we didn't try to negotiate with them.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281367883' post='2407608']
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. I would've done the same thing in their shoes. A true hegemony isn't a hegemony unless you put the boot to those that you hate.

Just don't say that we didn't try to negotiate with them.
[/quote]

I dont ever remember saying you didnt try to negotiate. I do not for a moment believe you WANTED this war. I do believe, however, that Heft, for a brief moment thought it was 2008 again. And he could essentially thumb his nose at common sense and just do as he pleased. Unfortunately, there is a price to pay for unbridled arrogance. Sometimes, its a harsher price than other times. This is one such time.

[R3nowned]

Wow GATO. Simply... wow. I'm speechless. What an ally you are. Cancelling a MDP+ treaty over a [i]technicality[/i]. We have a new WAE here boys.

[Sir Sci]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281367545' post='2407595']
RV was talking to Hoo at like 3AM EST. None of you were on. Heft was the only one on that morning and I'm pretty sure he was busy with other stuff to remember to inform our allies.

And yes, we knew about the war that was coming. That is why we started sending people into PM at 5PM on a Sunday afternoon. An hour or two before they declared.
[/quote]

And it would have been absolutely impossible for any government member of the NSO to inform us during the entire course of Sunday, right?

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1281332889' post='2406721']
Does this mean Pacifica can finally attack GATO?
[/quote]
Unfortunately we have a PIAT. For now.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281368167' post='2407619']
And it would have been absolutely impossible for any government member of the NSO to inform us during the entire course of Sunday, right?
[/quote]

I would've been impossible for me and RV. When we got on, we found out that we were going to get hit already. And you knew it too. None of our other government members were privy to such information, so they can't inform you on what they don't know. Heft was the only person that could have done it, given a brief period.

Seriously, you guys are grasping at straws here. We're talking about a matter of an hour or two of Heft not saying anything. Maybe he was busy? Maybe he was afk? He only knows. I can tell you that he was busy enough to not remember to tell all of our allies. Heft probably figured that he shouldn't act on his own anymore, so maybe he was waiting for some more DC members to get on? I don't know. It's all just speculation here. But you're really being inconsiderate if you're canceling this given the circumstances we were in.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='R3nowned' timestamp='1281368144' post='2407617']
Wow GATO. Simply... wow. I'm speechless. What an ally you are. Cancelling a MDP+ treaty over a [i]technicality[/i]. We have a new WAE here boys.
[/quote]

Once again as stated earlier in this thread, it is no cancellation, the treaty is now considered null and void due to NSO breaking it.

[Shakira]

[color="#FFFF00"][font="Comic Sans MS"]Go home, GATO, go home.[/font][/color]

[tamerlane]

TBQH, I thought the elawyer approach died ages ago and I was sad, thank you GATO for bringing this back.

If NSO didn't want GATO to cancel this treaty in this fashion, they probably should have asked that the article allowing cancellation be removed before they signed the treaty....


just sayin.

Edited August 9, 2010 by tamerlane

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1281367430' post='2407591']
I really don't know why GATO allies are attempting to defend this move. GATO $%&@ed up and I'd be embarrassed to be allied to them. You sign a MDP level treaty and a certain level of spirit and friendship is signed along with it. This friendship goes beyond the letter and word of any piece of e-paper. What GATO has done is shown they hold no respect for any treaty they currently hold. It's all a matter of convenience for them. Perhaps that LoSS treaty will continue to be special. We all know they love to switch sides before a major beat down. So congratulations GATO on !@#$@#$ up any chance of securing future treaties. You'd have to be a fool to sign with you.
[/quote]
Friendship. So, would you be inclined to tell me why, in the supposed 6 hour negotiations with RoK or whatever, or even when Hoo said "Aid the rogue and its war" and Heft goes ok, we will, NSO never told us that there was a situation with RoK that could lead to war? Please tell me? We love to switch sides before a beat down? Haven't we been beat down the most? Congratulations to z3 on being a total moron.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281368642' post='2407632']
Once again as stated earlier in this thread, it is no cancellation, the treaty is now considered null and void due to NSO breaking it.
[/quote]

Since when were friendships based on pieces of paper? I hate e-lawyers.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281369014' post='2407643']
Friendship. So, would you be inclined to tell me why, in the supposed 6 hour negotiations with RoK or whatever, or even when Hoo said "Aid the rogue and its war" and Heft goes ok, we will, NSO never told us that there was a situation with RoK that could lead to war? Please tell me? We love to switch sides before a beat down? Haven't we been beat down the most? Congratulations to z3 on being a total moron.
[/quote]

Heft actually got the rogue aid at like 12:30 in the morning. We act quickly when there's a lot of us on. At that point, there was like two people on and they were too busy to think about informing you guys. The temporal argument that you guys are making is not working to your advantage. I don't think it says anywhere in the treaty that we have to provide information on the dot of a situation. I think it's purposely vague because it has a forgiving intention. To be fair, we were not given much opportunity to inform you of anything.

[Sulmar]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281368642' post='2407632']
Once again as stated earlier in this thread, it is no cancellation, the treaty is now considered null and void due to NSO breaking it.
[/quote]
I swear to god, every ICAN person posts exactly the same thing without even attempting to read what other people said.

Also, no one cares that you told GATO before NSO, get over yourself.

[Sir Sci]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281368563' post='2407627']
I would've been impossible for me and RV. When we got on, we found out that we were going to get hit already. And you knew it too. None of our other government members were privy to such information, so they can't inform you on what they don't know. Heft was the only person that could have done it, given a brief period.

Seriously, you guys are grasping at straws here. We're talking about a matter of an hour or two of Heft not saying anything. Maybe he was busy? Maybe he was afk? He only knows. I can tell you that he was busy enough to not remember to tell all of our allies. Heft probably figured that he shouldn't act on his own anymore, so maybe he was waiting for some more DC members to get on? I don't know. It's all just speculation here. But you're really being inconsiderate if you're canceling this given the circumstances we were in.
[/quote]

Alright, so NSO's government didn't know? Alright, this, perhaps I can accept. So, for some reason, those of you who were privy to the information that RoK had outright said there would be war decided to not PM your own government or notify your membership? None of the Council of Lies or other Sith Lord knew? Is this correct?

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281369043' post='2407644']
Since when were friendships based on pieces of paper? I hate e-lawyers.
[/quote]
Then don't sign paper.