In Response to Recent Drama

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281365187' post='2407498']
No, the difference is you didn't have 23.4M NS land on your doorstep 24 hours after the Ni! raid began.
[/quote]

Actually I'm pretty sure Polar came knocking during that incident. So saying they weren't faced with war when that broke would be incorrect.

[Itsuki Koizumi]

i don't know why you did this when they said they weren't gonna call in any help.

[kerschbs]

[quote name='Kevlar' timestamp='1281347622' post='2407252']
As someone who has worked long and hard to establish relations between NSO and GATO, this is one of the most disappointing things I have ever seen. It's even more disappointing to see it all thrown away for such a BS reason. If this is the heartless and cowardly route that GATO leadership wishes to pursue, then so be it. I hope the rest of your allies take this lesson to heart.

Think you guys need to change the motto to "Honor When Convenient".

-Kev
[/quote]


Meh this is bull and you know it. The NSO treaty was a terrible idea in the first place, and the treaty deserves to have died since they signed with IRON, or after the last large war where NSO expected GATO to defend IRON's pre-emptive attack.

I don't see where people are having such a hard time comprehending this. NSO never should have aided that rogue. When you do stupid !@#$, do you really not expect there to be negative repercussions?

[Sir Sci]

Facts:

1. Hoo informed Heft that it would be war if war aid was sent to the rogue.
2. Heft sent war aid to the rogue.
3. GATO was informed by allies (ICAN, VE, etc.)
3a. In step 3, the NSO was not one of these allies that informed us.
3b. Also within step 3, Heft was online and would have been able to shoot one of us a PM. All it would have needed to have been was a "hey, stuff is going on. We'll tell you later." That would have sufficed.
4. Omni goes to Heft and asks what's going on. Heft's response is "lol."
5. GATO realized that the NSO has broken the treaty.
6. War.
7. GATO announces that the NSO broke the treaty.
8. Community goes OMG, I can't believe that GATO isn't following a treaty that the NSO already broke!

What I am really struggling with here are statements that say that they couldn't inform us about a "surprise attack" or that they couldn't inform us about a war that they didn't see coming themselves. Hoo told Heft that there was going to be a war. Heft KNEW war was coming. So, if it is indeed true that the NSO didn't know war was going to happen, then that would mean that Heft didn't even tell the rest of the alliance about what was going on when it happened. So, the question is, did Heft inform other government members of the NSO about what was going on? If he did, then the claim that NSO didn't know is bogus, and they know it. If Heft didn't inform the rest of the NSO then perhaps we, GATO, are wrong, other than...hmmmmm...that would be a failing of the NSO's government and essentially an admission that their government was too dysfunctional to get the word to us. Either way, NSO broke the treaty.

tl:dr? Hoo told NSO there would be war. NSO didn't tell us. Treaty says they would.

EDIT: [QUOTE]i don't know why you did this when they said they weren't gonna call in any help. [/QUOTE]

Exactly, we didn't cancel this because we were afraid of getting rolled, because we weren't even be asked to go to war. WE DIDN'T CANCEL! The treaty is null and void by the NSO's actions.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Sir Sci

[The Reccesion]

GATO should just get it over with and attacking NSO now.

[AvengingAngel256]

Good Luck Gato

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281366013' post='2407535']
Facts:

1. Hoo informed Heft that it would be war if war aid was sent to the rogue.
2. Heft sent war aid to the rogue.
3. GATO was informed by allies (ICAN, VE, etc.)
3a. In step 3, the NSO was not one of these allies that informed us.
3b. Also within step 3, Heft was online and would have been able to shoot one of us a PM. All it would have needed to have been was a "hey, stuff is going on. We'll tell you later." That would have sufficed.
4. Omni goes to Heft and asks what's going on. Heft's response is "lol."
5. GATO realized that the NSO has broken the treaty.
6. War.
7. GATO announces that the NSO broke the treaty.
8. Community goes OMG, I can't believe that GATO isn't following a treaty that the NSO already broke!

What I am really struggling with here are statements that say that they couldn't inform us about a "surprise attack" or that they couldn't inform us about a war that they didn't see coming themselves. Hoo told Heft that there was going to be a war. Heft KNEW war was coming. So, if it is indeed true that the NSO didn't know war was going to happen, then that would mean that Heft didn't even tell the rest of the alliance about what was going on when it happened. So, the question is, did Heft inform other government members of the NSO about what was going on? If he did, then the claim that NSO didn't know is bogus, and they know it. If Heft didn't inform the rest of the NSO then perhaps we, GATO, are wrong, other than...hmmmmm...that would be a failing of the NSO's government and essentially an admission that their government was too dysfunctional to get the word to us. Either way, NSO broke the treaty.

tl:dr? Hoo told NSO there would be war. NSO didn't tell us. Treaty says they would.
[/quote]

We told Hoo we would protect a member without proof, before attacks commenced. Yet, do you think Hoo believed NSO would attack him? No. Because we use DIPLOMACY! Not that hard to understand folks. I've never expected GATO to defend us, but I didn't expect you to run with your tail between your legs from a conflict we asked you to stay out of. Some things never change.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281366013' post='2407535']
Facts:

1. Hoo informed Heft that it would be war if war aid was sent to the rogue.
2. Heft sent war aid to the rogue.
3. GATO was informed by allies (ICAN, VE, etc.)
3a. In step 3, the NSO was not one of these allies that informed us.
3b. Also within step 3, Heft was online and would have been able to shoot one of us a PM. All it would have needed to have been was a "hey, stuff is going on. We'll tell you later." That would have sufficed.
4. Omni goes to Heft and asks what's going on. Heft's response is "lol."
5. GATO realized that the NSO has broken the treaty.
6. War.
7. GATO announces that the NSO broke the treaty.
8. Community goes OMG, I can't believe that GATO isn't following a treaty that the NSO already broke!

What I am really struggling with here are statements that say that they couldn't inform us about a "surprise attack" or that they couldn't inform us about a war that they didn't see coming themselves. Hoo told Heft that there was going to be a war. Heft KNEW war was coming. So, if it is indeed true that the NSO didn't know war was going to happen, then that would mean that Heft didn't even tell the rest of the alliance about what was going on when it happened. So, the question is, did Heft inform other government members of the NSO about what was going on? If he did, then the claim that NSO didn't know is bogus, and they know it. If Heft didn't inform the rest of the NSO then perhaps we, GATO, are wrong, other than...hmmmmm...that would be a failing of the NSO's government and essentially an admission that their government was too dysfunctional to get the word to us. Either way, NSO broke the treaty.

tl:dr? Hoo told NSO there would be war. NSO didn't tell us. Treaty says they would.
[/quote]

Actually, no. We did not know that there was going to be war. RV held talks with Hoo Saturday night and it appeared that progress was made. We believed that the situation was still negotiable. We even had a plan of action; until seconds later we found out that people were going to attack us. We assumed RoK were reasonable people. Assumed too much, to be honest.

You guys seem to change your reasoning a lot. First it's because we didn't tell you about the aid. Next it's because we didn't tell you about a war we didn't know about. You were just trying to find an excuse to cancel weren't you? Are we that insufferable?

[Duncan King]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281364658' post='2407474']
Wow you're right pms don't exist. Silly me, nevermind NSO Duncan King has opened up my eyes.
[/quote]
I think you missed the point in your haste to mock me. NSO appears to have been negotiating in good faith but it doesn't look like that was the case with Rok. They were going through the motions of negotiating while preparing to attack. It doesn't look like NSO expected this to go South so quickly, that's probably why they didn't notify you.

Edit: non specific pronoun.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Duncan King

[Jrenster]

[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1281365967' post='2407534']
Meh this is bull and you know it. The NSO treaty was a terrible idea in the first place, and the treaty deserves to have died since they signed with IRON, or after the last large war where NSO expected GATO to defend IRON's pre-emptive attack.

I don't see where people are having such a hard time comprehending this. NSO never should have aided that rogue. When you do stupid !@#$, do you really not expect there to be negative repercussions?
[/quote]

I knew it. You [i]were[/i] just trying to find an excuse to cancel on us.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281366151' post='2407539']
We told Hoo we would protect a member without proof, before attacks commenced. Yet, do you think Hoo believed NSO would attack him? No. Because we use DIPLOMACY! Not that hard to understand folks. I've never expected GATO to defend us, but I didn't expect you to run with your tail between your legs from a conflict we asked you to stay out of. Some things never change.
[/quote]

Hi, welcome to Digiterra. Have you met Hoo?

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1281366238' post='2407543']
I think you missed the point in your haste to mock me. NSO appears to have been negotiating in good faith but it doesn't look like that was the case with Rok. They were going through the motions of negotiating while preparing to attack. It doesn't look like they expected this to go South so quickly, that's probably why they didn't notify you.
[/quote]

Seriously... aiding a rogue is in good faith? At the very least, it was unclear if he was clean. In the absence of that clarity, how much common sense does it take to withhold that aid for 18-24 hours? Answer? Alot more than the collective commone sense of NSO.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='The Reccesion' timestamp='1281366024' post='2407536']
GATO should just get it over with and attacking NSO now.
[/quote]

Will just send money to GOONS to go rogue on them and then say we wouldn't know NSO would be mad about that.

[kerschbs]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281363235' post='2407413']
Well Omni, this was a pretty bad move. To be honest, this all sounds kind of fishy to me, but I won't digress.

Your reasons are pretty flimsy to begin with. If you are dropping because of we didn't tell you that Heft aided someone in the middle of a Saturday night when none of you guys were on, then you hardly have a convincing argument. If you are dropping because we didn't tell you that 5 alliances were going to hit us today, that is because we didn't know about until after you knew.

All in all, this sounds like you found an excuse to cancel on us and you did so at the first moment without any sort of talk. A good friend doesn't care about what a piece of paper says, but rather the value of the friendship itself. If you were a good friend, you would look past Article II. Now I know that you were never a good friend.
[/quote]

They were good friends for sticking with NSO as long as they did. I still think GATO should have canceled on NSO when you signed a treaty with IRON, and I called for it then as a member.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1281366238' post='2407543']
I think you missed the point in your haste to mock me. NSO appears to have been negotiating in good faith but it doesn't look like that was the case with Rok. They were going through the motions of negotiating while preparing to attack. It doesn't look like NSO expected this to go South so quickly, that's probably why they didn't notify you.

Edit: non specific pronoun.
[/quote]

I understand that. I wasn't very thrilled with RoK in this situation either, but here is a little anecdote to prove the point of what I'm saying:

Once upon a time we accepted a recruit Legion was angry at. Of course we went to Legion and told them we were doing it and Legion said ok well he owes 52mil so please pay up. Instead of just saying no and then going "lol they're not attacking." We immediately told our treaty partners what was going on and then went back to Legion and told them we had decided we weren't going to pay them anything. In the end Legion backed down and everyone was happy. If NSO can not have the common decency to do the same I'm very disapointed.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281366381' post='2407554']
Seriously... aiding a rogue is in good faith? At the very least, it was unclear if he was clean. In the absence of that clarity, how much common sense does it take to withhold that aid for 18-24 hours? Answer? Alot more than the collective commone sense of NSO.
[/quote]

Yes, it was unclear that he was clean. That is why we wanted evidence. And him attacking a couple of TENE alliances is not evidence. You people need to get your story straight, because he did not do that without justification. At the time, we found out that he was being spied upon and being threatened by war by TENE. Once the evidence was provided, we were going to kick him.

[Balder]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1281364730' post='2407478']
I hate your alliance, and I hope that when you finally burn, I get to help with your destruction. You are a sack of thoughtless hypocritical jerks, and you do not deserve some of the friends you have.
[/quote]

For some reason I have a feeling that this would be much more difficult a goal to accomplish than you think. I know I'd be looking forward to kicking you and the rest of the Holier Than Thou Brigade in the 'nads for the insolence though.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Balder

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281366393' post='2407555']
Will just send money to GOONS to go rogue on them and then say we wouldn't know NSO would be mad about that.
[/quote]

I can assume VE knew as soon as Saturday night. In which case they either told you or did not. If they did, you failed to inform us of impending war, thereby invoking the clause you seem to be holding so dear from your end. If they did not, I'm curious, are you voting on that treaty as well? I would hate to continue thinking you a coward.

[welshgazza1992]

I've never pretended to like the New Sith Order, but GATO... Really?

Poor show. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif[/img]

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281366659' post='2407565']
Yes, it was unclear that he was clean. That is why we wanted evidence. And him attacking a couple of TENE alliances is not evidence. You people need to get your story straight, because he did not do that without justification. At the time, we found out that he was being spied upon and being threatened by war by TENE. Once the evidence was provided, we were going to kick him.
[/quote]

My point? You missed it. Good job. The aid sent is the crux of the issue, IMO. It was not vital to send him that aid at the exact moment. It WAS sent with the explicit intent of pushing RoK's buttons. You can feel free to deny that, but I was not born yesterday. If you wanted to negotiate in good faith, you would have withheld the aid until you had a chance to talk to RoK again. Had you done that, it is likely we would not be having this discussion right now.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1281366577' post='2407561']
They were good friends for sticking with NSO as long as they did. I still think GATO should have canceled on NSO when you signed a treaty with IRON, and I called for it then as a member.
[/quote]

What? How exactly did GATO stick with us? When has GATO ever went to war with us?

[Sir Keshav IV]

What GATO should have done was wait till the war was over and then cancel. The same reasoning can be used then and it would seem more believable. Doing in the middle of the war whether for the right reasons or not is just of poor class. For once I must say I am disappointed in you guys.

[Bob Janova]

I'm not that convinced about the reasoning you've used here. Just cancelling the treaty (or not signing it in the first place? ) would have been a cleaner approach. 'Voiding' it in this way is going to attract lots of awkward questions.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281366872' post='2407571']
My point? You missed it. Good job. The aid sent is the crux of the issue, IMO. It was not vital to send him that aid at the exact moment. It WAS sent with the explicit intent of pushing RoK's buttons. You can feel free to deny that, but I was not born yesterday. If you wanted to negotiate in good faith, you would have withheld the aid until you had a chance to talk to RoK again. Had you done that, it is likely we would not be having this discussion right now.
[/quote]

I feel like I'm talking like a broken record. I know that was your point. I have addressed that point several times, but it has fallen on deaf ears. That's not what you were talking about though, and you seemed misinformed. But I digress.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281366905' post='2407572']
What? How exactly did GATO stick with us? When has GATO ever went to war with us?
[/quote]

Where is it defined that you have to go to war with someone to stick with them? When Polar essentially flipped off MK and GR and RoK to DoW \m/ and put every ally involved in the worst possible position, they stuck by Polar. Was there some public outrage? Yes. Was Polar CLEARLY in that moment on the opposite side of their friends? Yes. Did the friendships and relationships survive? Yes. When I learned of this situation yesterday, I had a long chat with IAA and GATO officials, with the sole intent of saving our relationship with them because I was resigned to the fact that GATO and IAA would fall on the other side of this war. It is that kind of love I have for both of those alliances that drove me to pre-emptively fix what was about to become at least a minor rift. THAT is sticking with someone.