Ragnarok Declaration of War

[iamthey]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1281408307' post='2408913']
You don't get to rewrite the rules. Standard procedure when you get an applicant involved in war [for exactly this reason] is to clear up the wars before accepting. Making him a full member, threatening TENE - the people he attacked - with retaliation if they defended their members - then aiding him minutes after Hoo explicitly told you he would $%&@ you up if you did is a [b]stupid[/b] move.

And now you have to mop up the result of that stupidity.
[/quote]

So you propose they be responsible and clean up their act while you make a bigger mess? What you said would have been appropriate if cooler heads had prevailed, but here we are.

6 million would have had near zero relative impact on both rok and their protectorate when taking into consideration the damage that can be done by a single nuclear weapon. Heft thumbed his nose at hoo, that is about the extent of what happened here. This war is not being fought to uphold the security of rok, they were never under threat, and it is not being fought to protect TENE, as they are now exposed to more risk than they were before the war. As there is no material basis for the war in the form of harm done to Rok, if for no other ulterior motive, this war is being fought to recoup a leader's bruised ego.

Perhaps NSO had it coming, they did challenge rok, and there was an implied 'do something about it'. But beyond this metaphorical game of chicken, this is really just a display of open violence to an alliance you consider uppity.

Edited August 10, 2010 by iamthey

[Haflinger]

So I decided to collect all of Sedrick's ingame information in one tidy little image.

[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/sedrick_chronology.png[/img]
This paints an interesting picture, especially when you realize that MHA said that he wasn't ghosting their alliance, but instead was applying to it. Apparently MHA is OK with their allies' protectorates launching spy attacks against their applicants.

[Chris Pearson]

He tried to Sign up with them, but MHA went to TENE first and talked to them about Sedrick, once they learned what he had done he wasn't allowed in.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='PearChris' timestamp='1281444502' post='2409549']
He tried to Sign up with them, but MHA went to TENE first and talked to them about Sedrick, once they learned what he had done he wasn't allowed in.
[/quote]
Yes, I mentioned that he was an MHA applicant. A definition of "applicant" is "someone who is trying to sign up with an alliance."

[thephenomenon]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1281443638' post='2409539']

6 million would have had near zero relative impact on both rok and their protectorate when taking into consideration the damage that can be done by a single nuclear weapon.
[/quote]


Are you serious I watched you all beat people down people for aiding FAN for two years. maybe you all felt threatened by all thoughs low ns nations in peacemode

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281444168' post='2409544']
Apparently MHA is OK with their allies' protectorates launching spy attacks against their applicants.
[/quote]

Here we go again:

[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> In the middle of a heated argument, Adzz of TENE had two spy attacks ... right as Sedrick was threatening him with war
[22:06] <Heft> And he had already sent them peace offers prior to applying to the NSO
[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Adzz spied back
[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> This all occurred on the 4th

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281446147' post='2409567']
Here we go again:

[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> In the middle of a heated argument, Adzz of TENE had two spy attacks ... right as Sedrick was threatening him with war
[22:06] <Heft> And he had already sent them peace offers prior to applying to the NSO
[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Adzz spied back
[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> This all occurred on the 4th
[/quote]
Yeah, let's just say that Adzz's claim of spy attacks doesn't hold a lot of water with me.

Put another way - show some evidence that they're real.

[iamthey]

[quote name='thephenomenon' timestamp='1281445997' post='2409565']
Are you serious I watched you all beat people down people for aiding FAN for two years. maybe you all felt threatened by all thoughs low ns nations in peacemode
[/quote]

Because NPO's historical actions represent the standard Rok is trying to live up too? Watch out, if your not careful someone might make a pepsi hegemony reference.

But on a more serious note, I am not a spokesman of my alliance, I don't have to defend what we did, and if I am to take the defenders of SF/CnG at their word, then you all are trying to do things in a little differently. What NPO did in the past is more or less irrelevant as you all have set your own moral bar, and I would hope that means you all are looking to act at the very least reasonably. My point was there was no material justification for the war itself, no damage was done. This holds true in the relative sense, as this war will no doubt do far more damage to Rok and friends in one day than that aid would have done throughout its entire use, and it also holds true in the absolute sense as there was no time for damage to be done. This has very little to do with the consequences of NSO's actions and really is about the fact that Heft defied Hoo. It has been repeatedly stated that Hoo [b]TOLD THEM[/b] that it would be considered an act of war, as if Hoo's words alone represent some sort of law. People seem far more offended with heft's impudence, than with the [b]severe[/b] and [b]gross[/b] damage members of TENE suffered, or would have suffered because of that excessive six million.

That being said, it seems that the emperor of NSO would have treated this situation much differently. Had diplomacy been attempted TENE could have been compensated for the mistake and this entire controversy could have been avoided. Instead Hoo thuggishly decided to assert himself by calling in the big boys. This entire thing essentially amounts to an epeen measuring and or waving contest between Heft and Hoo. Heft asks them to stop with the rogue, Hoo tells them they will stop when they feel like it, heft says they will send aid, Hoo says he'll start a war, heft sends six million, Hoo sends in five alliances. Pretty silly and unnecessary if you ask me. The only thing that alleviates heft is, he only burned six million, Hoo is putting up his own people, allies, and his protectorate to get nuked.

Edited August 10, 2010 by iamthey

[Rugby]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281444168' post='2409544']
This paints an interesting picture, especially when you realize that MHA said that he wasn't ghosting their alliance, but instead was applying to it. Apparently MHA is OK with their allies' protectorates launching spy attacks against their applicants.
[/quote]

RoK are apparently not our allies (IDK, before my time), and it was immediately clear to our staff that the dude had an on-going conflict with his previous alliance and hence he never got through our front door. It didn't really take much to find out the full story and why those spy attacks occurred.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1281447806' post='2409588']This has very little to do with the consequences of NSO's actions and really is about the fact that Heft defied Hoo. It has been repeatedly stated that Hoo [b]TOLD THEM[/b] that it would be considered an act of war, as if Hoo's words alone represent some sort of law.
[/quote]
So Hoo is a bully with a God-Emperor complex that somehow thinks he is more important than lowly Heft? Say it ain't so! Heft did screw up here, but not enough for an alliance war. I thought we fought a huge war in early to mid '09 to rectify this sort of behavior. You know those that did it needed to bleed to be absolved of their sins and then the bullying would end. Many have changed their ways after this point in time. It seems Rok went the way of the bully...

That is the point that should not be forgotten about this war, everyone says "Hoo told him it would be an act of war" and didn't seem bothered to work things out. He wanted war, he's a bully, nothing new here. My memory is missing one little fact that perhaps someone in this thread could help me with, who was leading Rok when they installed a viceroy back in the day? I honestly can't remember.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Matt Miller

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281446147' post='2409567']
Here we go again:

[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> In the middle of a heated argument, Adzz of TENE had two spy attacks ... right as Sedrick was threatening him with war
[22:06] <Heft> And he had already sent them peace offers prior to applying to the NSO
[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Adzz spied back
[22:06] <VanHooIII[RoK]> This all occurred on the 4th
[/quote]

If Sedrick spied first and Adzz knew it was Sedrick, it would be in the exposed operations.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_spies.asp?searchstring=All&search=sedrick

The only spy op on the 4th was Adzz against Sedrick. That's the available proof. If there's something else that someone's holding on to for a rainy day, however, I believe it's now raining nukes. May be a good time right now.

[Alexander The Second]

during this whole mess, no one took screen shots???


I am not the oldest guy around, but I pretty much learned in my first month here that when engaging in debates about who struck first or started it screen shots are the only solid proof there is out there.

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1281449494' post='2409614']
during this whole mess, no one took screen shots???


I am not the oldest guy around, but I pretty much learned in my first month here that when engaging in debates about who struck first or started it screen shots are the only solid proof there is out there.
[/quote]

That's what I'd like to know. The information available through the Exposed Spy Ops reports shows Adzz spied first. If there's something else to counter that, someone's holding onto it.

[King Tower IV]

You know King Tower Loves to RoK

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1281449686' post='2409617']
That's what I'd like to know. The information available through the Exposed Spy Ops reports shows Adzz spied first. If there's something else to counter that, someone's holding onto it.
[/quote]


Well honestly to me I don't really care who acted first since the war is already on, and I doubt either side would be too incline to just calling it a flop and declaring white peace.

I was just wondering about screen shots, cause it is my own personal opinion that declaring such a large scale war over 6 mill in aid to someone who may or may not be a rogue is just silly.

If the proof shows he is a rogue, then props...

If proof shows he isn't then boo's


either way bring it this far without either side having any solid proof brings a big WTF.

[HHAYD]

NSO, what part of "Accepting a rogue that is attacking TENE as you new member, refusing to cooperate with RoK, and then proceeding to aid the rogue is considered an act of war?" do you not understand.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1281450950' post='2409628']
I was just wondering about screen shots, cause it is my own personal opinion that declaring such a large scale war over 6 mill in aid to someone who may or may not be a rogue is just silly. [/quote]

The real truth here is not that the 6 million is a big deal. It's really about Hoo feeling more important than everyone and attacking NSO with several other alliances because he can. Oh and Heft dared not take Hoo's word for the holy gospel of Admin. Hoo doesn't need to produce evidence, his word is law...

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451183' post='2409634']
The real truth here is not that the 6 million is a big deal. It's really about Hoo feeling more important than everyone and attacking NSO with several other alliances because he can. Oh and Heft dared not take Hoo's word for the holy gospel of Admin. Hoo doesn't need to produce evidence, his word is law...
[/quote]

You guys never needed evidence, why need it now? 'Cause you're outside looking in?

[Aurion]

I think they're just too lazy to read the threads, Viking.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281451582' post='2409642']
You guys never needed evidence, why need it now? 'Cause you're outside looking in?
[/quote]
You make a very good point here and quite a valid comparison between The Hegemony behavior of ~2 years ago that was so heavily demonized and the current behavior of Rok and their supporters like you. Thank you for mentioning it here.

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1281451815' post='2409650']
I think they're just too lazy to read the threads, Viking.
[/quote]


I have read the thread... the whole damn 30+ pages of trolling...


not a single screen shot to support either sides claims that ignited this war.


The declaration might as well been "cause we don't like how there 1's and 0's smell"

[Aurion]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1281452074' post='2409655']
I have read the thread... the whole damn 30+ pages of trolling...


not a single screen shot to support either sides claims that ignited this war.


The declaration might as well been "cause we don't like how there 1's and 0's smell"
[/quote]

Threads, plural. We're at least close to the point where literally everything has been hashed over...over and over again.

And as point of fact screens aren't be-all end-all, fair warning for the future. They're good evidence to have, but a [i]long[/i] ways from perfect.

On the plus side, it's nice that people have stopped trying to actively dispute that NSO doing something Hoo explicitly said was an act of war was a surpassingly retarded thing to do. That was getting old fast.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Aurion

[Alexander The Second]

He did what he thought was correct, as I am sure the other party did.


While screen shots may not be the end all be all, they certainly help show who is or isn't making a mountain out of a mole hill.



I just wanna see if this war was declared out of boredom, pride, or is well founded.

If the guy is a rogue (with proof), then I understand war even over 6mill... a just reason is a just reason no matter how small or large. However a lack of proof is just that, how can one wave a banner around if his foundation to do so is as solid as quicksand.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451817' post='2409651']
You make a very good point here and quite a valid comparison between The Hegemony behavior of ~2 years ago that was so heavily demonized and the current behavior of Rok and their supporters like you. Thank you for mentioning it here.
[/quote]

I don't believe I've ever demonized the Hegemony outside of trying to get you all to stop subjugating me or my alliance. If I can watch as the same happens to you, that's great and I'm happy. If I could put a Viceroy to IRON right now I'd do it, because you guys treated R&R like crap under my watch to the point of calling us a cancer, and I have a bone to pick.

One of us here is a hypocrite, and it's not me.

[stangad]

If they had the SS, they would have provided it by now. Clearly they don't. They wanted their war and they got it. I hope they're having a good time because we sure are.