ATTN: Feibelman and Arbiter

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='janax' date='22 June 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1277232838' post='2346800']
[b]So he might be attacked for relating his story?[/b] Interesting.

Sounds like a reasonable response to admitted "but joking" racist remarks being directed AT him.
[/quote]

Read into that whatever you want. There's no insider information, or anything like that in the sentence. If I don't explicitly say it, it doesn't exist. So if you think he's going to be attacked, that's your opinion. Don't twist the words.

[janax]

What other SAFETY could you refer to?

Is someone going to show up at his house and actually assault him? Seems far less likely.

The most logical conclusion for that, then, would be that he would be attacked IN-GAME. If there are other options for how his "safety" would be in peril, please, enlighten me.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='janax' date='22 June 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1277233536' post='2346814']
What other SAFETY could you refer to?

Is someone going to show up at his house and actually assault him? Seems far less likely.

The most logical conclusion for that, then, would be that he would be attacked IN-GAME. If there are other options for how his "safety" would be in peril, please, enlighten me.
[/quote]

Sure. "Safety" as in his reputation. Maybe I should have used those words. But if you could stop reading into another alliance's politics or game plan, or whatever, that'd be great. Seeing as no Legion members started this topic, the alliance as a whole should probably be left out. In fact, not only am I surprised this topic hasn't been closed, I kinda wish it would be closed. It has no useful purposes whatsoever.

[janax]

No thanks, I'll continue to read into other alliance's politics and game plan all I want. Unless my safety is in jeopardy of course.
Oh, no, wait. I'd do it anyway.

As to whether it serves a useful purpose, it certainly seems to shed some light on the the behavior of certain members (government members, none the less) of your alliance work. Very useful indeed.

If you wish to try and close it, you should report the post to the Mods and let them decide.

[jer]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='22 June 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1277233709' post='2346817']
But if you could stop reading into another alliance's politics or game plan, or whatever, that'd be great. Seeing as no Legion members started this topic, the alliance as a whole should probably be left out. In fact, not only am I surprised this topic hasn't been closed, I kinda wish it would be closed. It has no useful purposes whatsoever.
[/quote]
I disagree. If we have boneheaded racist hate-mongers in our midst, I want to know about it, particularly if they are the leaders of a group in this game. It seems to be your wish to stop this being a big issue for your alliance, so I'd suggest that a good first move would be to give up on the current attempts to shut this topic down. Defending the accused (which you are tacitly doing by trying to control the topic against the apparent victim and in favour of the accused) without providing any substance other than 'it might hurt the alliances image for this thread to continue' does not look put you in a great light.

Instead of simply stonewalling the discussion and trying to get everyone to keep schtum about this or else, it'd make you look better if you were able to say how the allegations were dealt with and what action was taken (if any). Can you do that?

Edited June 22, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='22 June 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1277236334' post='2346856']
I disagree. If we have boneheaded racist hate-mongers in our midst, I want to know about it, particularly if they are the leaders of a group in this game. It seems to be your wish to stop this being a big issue for your alliance, so I'd suggest that a good first move would be to give up on the current attempts to shut this topic down. Defending the accused (which you are tacitly doing by trying to control the topic against the apparent victim and in favour of the accused) without providing any substance other than 'it might hurt the alliances image for this thread to continue' does not look put you in a great light.

Instead of simply stonewalling the discussion, it'd make you look better if you were able to say how the allegations were dealt with and what action was taken (if any). Can you do that?
[/quote]

I commend you really. Because that would be the best method to take care of this situation. And since some of the members involved are sitting on their couches reading the topic when they could be defending or reasoning, I'll do my best to enlighten you all.

The IRC logs are pretty hateful. Involving some racist slurs and what not. It was brought to light on our main forums and was dealt with accordingly. Everyone was made aware of the situation, and the Inspector General and government members (who are not involved) are taking care of it. The individual who started this topic, freely left our alliance on his own. Even though we were working on fixing things, and hateful things were said, it was his choice to do what he did...on both accounts [leaving and starting this topic]. He was not forced out.

I'm not going to sit here and say that racism is okay, because it most certainly is not. There's no place for racists in this game. We just want to play, have fun etc. At least I do. I don't know what anyone else's motives are. As far as the alliance goes, I don't approve of what was said, but I think it was pretty well dealt with. They both issued apologies on our forums (which was where this should have stayed). I guess the best thing I can say is that racism disgusts me and The Legion is overall a pretty nice group of characters. Don't let a few bad apples taint the barrel. The opinions of those few individuals do not reflect the views of everyone.

Edited June 22, 2010 by lmcfalcon12

[Hymenbreach]

I wish Legion would sort out it's internal discipline, which used to be it's defining strength.

[Gunnar Griffin]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='22 June 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1277236376' post='2346858']
I commend you really. Because that would be the best method to take care of this situation. And since some of the members involved are sitting on their couches reading the topic when they could be defending or reasoning, I'll do my best to enlighten you all.

The IRC logs are pretty hateful. Involving some racist slurs and what not. It was brought to light on our main forums and was dealt with accordingly. Everyone was made aware of the situation, and the Inspector General and government members (who are not involved) are taking care of it. The individual who started this topic, freely left our alliance on his own. Even though we were working on fixing things, and hateful things were said, it was his choice to do what he did...on both accounts [leaving and starting this topic]. He was not forced out.

I'm not going to sit here and say that racism is okay, because it most certainly is not. There's no place for racists in this game. We just want to play, have fun etc. At least I do. I don't know what anyone else's motives are. As far as the alliance goes, I don't approve of what was said, but I think it was pretty well dealt with. They both issued apologies on our forums (which was where this should have stayed). I guess the best thing I can say is that racism disgusts me and The Legion is overall a pretty nice group of characters. Don't let a few bad apples taint the barrel. The opinions of those few individuals do not reflect the views of everyone.
[/quote]
Most of this is true. However, LMC, you are aware I was told that I could suffer punishment if I returned and I was being blamed for some of it. Therefore I found it prudent, at the time, to make this topic. I did leave of my own volition; however, the decision was made as I did not want to be in an alliance with Feibelman and Arbiter, especially since they are government.

I agree with the rest of your sentiments.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Gunnar Griffin

[ktarthan]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='22 June 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1277236376' post='2346858']
The IRC logs are pretty hateful. Involving some racist slurs and what not. It was brought to light on our main forums and was dealt with accordingly. Everyone was made aware of the situation, and the Inspector General and government members (who are not involved) are taking care of it. The individual who started this topic, freely left our alliance on his own. Even though we were working on fixing things, and hateful things were said, it was his choice to do what he did...on both accounts [leaving and starting this topic]. He was not forced out.
[/quote]

Now I apologize for being a nitpick here, but for clarity's sake I would like to hear (if you know) what exactly "dealt with accordingly" and "are taking care of it" refer to.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='22 June 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1277237476' post='2346878']
Now I apologize for being a nitpick here, but for clarity's sake I would like to hear (if you know) what exactly "dealt with accordingly" and "are taking care of it" refer to.
[/quote]

No worries. Well to make a long story short, I saw Gunnar posting in our resignation forum and then commissioned him to give me all the information. I am one of 4 assistants to the Inspector General. He is still working on the situation and I believe has the [i]whole[/i] story now, IRC logs and all. One of the 2 offenders made a post explaining that racism was bad and that he was sorry. The other offender piggybacked off this topic and said he was sorry. In my opinion, this was sufficient. You admitted you did wrong and said you were sorry and don't let it happen again.

The Imperator (single top leader of the alliance), posted that similar racist conduct would not be tolerated in any way, shape, or form. The two people at fault were publicly reprimanded and civility on the forums was maintained. Basically everyone was living happily ever after until this topic popped up 2 hours ago. And like I said, racism is the worst kind of hate there is. And if it happens again, regarding any member, myself included, I would like to see forum bans, and the potential for expulsion from the alliance. An apology a 2nd time will not fly in my book. Part of being mature is watching your mouth and treating others with respect. If you don't want to abide by those simple unwritten rules, then don't let the door hit you on the way out. You have no business with us.
[i]
Do unto others.[/i]

Edited June 22, 2010 by lmcfalcon12

[ktarthan]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='22 June 2010 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1277237919' post='2346886']
*snip*
[/quote]
Good to hear. It's so easy to simply say "it has been dealt with" about IA issues, and not actually have done anything, so it is nice to see some trasnparency. For a "first offense" (that is, first reprimand for the offense, whether or not this is the first time it occurred) this seems to be a reasonable course of action.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='22 June 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1277238314' post='2346896']
Good to hear. It's so easy to simply say "it has been dealt with" about IA issues, and not actually have done anything, so it is nice to see some transparency. For a "first offense" (that is, first reprimand for the offense, whether or not this is the first time it occurred) this seems to be a reasonable course of action.
[/quote]

Trust me, like I said, its likely to fly with anyone in the future. So the rest of our members can consider this as their 1st warning as well. It won't ever fly again. Personally I think the use of the language overall on the forums is a bit out of control. I don't understand why people can't alter their word choice to use words like "crap" and "freaking" instead of the others they do use.

Oh well. Another battle for another day.

[Lord Fingolfin]

Oh please tell me more. What a joke, get your !@#$ together and stop making a mockery of yourselves. Congratulations Legion, you've run off another quality member. I'd list them all but that'd take 10 full posts. You've managed to run off and alienate 90% of the talent that you gained last year, all the future government members and leaders either left with Quantum, or over one dispute or another. Thats some quality leadership by Hubb! Woo!

Whilst Gunnar and I don't exactly see eye to eye, he had every right to make this thread, and stop posturing about his "safety", threatening nations/alliances is just going to make you guys look moronic, thought maybe you'd have learned that from the GATO-Clockwise thing

[Gunnar Griffin]

Banned me from the Legion forums, eh Arbiter? Any reason? Was it because I outed you as a racist? Since you couldn't back yourself up through reasoning, you decided to resort to that.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Were logs posted here? Or is it time to go pastebin diving?

Gunnar it is depressing that you had to undergo such treatment from those you might have considered to be friends. You have since removed yourself from the situation, I guess you took the path you deemed to be the best amongst those available to you at the time. I would have stayed and tried to effect a change, but not being in your shoes i shall have to defer to your choice in the matter.

Also it is noted that the accused have displayed contrition and acknowledged the error of their ways. It wont make the hurt go away, but it is a start.

Of course if Gunnar is further persecuted owing to this topic, then it would seem that the contrition was not genuine.

[mythicknight]

Good luck on a new path, Gunnar.

[Gunnar Griffin]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='23 June 2010 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1277267327' post='2347294']
Were logs posted here? Or is it time to go pastebin diving?

Gunnar it is depressing that you had to undergo such treatment from those you might have considered to be friends. You have since removed yourself from the situation, I guess you took the path you deemed to be the best amongst those available to you at the time. I would have stayed and tried to effect a change, but not being in your shoes i shall have to defer to your choice in the matter.

Also it is noted that the accused have displayed contrition and acknowledged the error of their ways. It wont make the hurt go away, but it is a start.

Of course if Gunnar is further persecuted owing to this topic, then it would seem that the contrition was not genuine.
[/quote]
I didn't post the logs because they'd be quite scandalous. I just explained a bit of my situation was all. And thanks for the well wishes bro.

[Omniscient1]

I don't know the story, because the OP was edited. However, if you have GOONS and FEAR agreeing you've done something terrible.

Also, good luck at NSO. They are good guys

Edited June 23, 2010 by Omniscient1

[Imperial]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='22 June 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1277263349' post='2347212']


Oh please tell me more. What a joke, get your !@#$ together and stop making a mockery of yourselves. Congratulations Legion, you've run off another quality member. I'd list them all but that'd take 10 full posts. You've managed to run off and alienate 90% of the talent that you gained last year, all the future government members and leaders either left with Quantum, or over one dispute or another. Thats some quality leadership by Hubb! Woo!

Whilst Gunnar and I don't exactly see eye to eye, he had every right to make this thread, and stop posturing about his "safety", threatening nations/alliances is just going to make you guys look moronic, thought maybe you'd have learned that from the GATO-Clockwise thing
[/quote]

This criticism might carry a bit more weight if it weren't for: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=81383&st=0&p=2195899&#entry2195899"]http://forums.cybern...9[/url]

For you see, what you accuse this alliance of is actually something that you yourself perpetrated and were subsequently removed for. So before you accuse Hubb of poor quality leadership, take a long hard look in the mirror and remember that you contributed to the problem which you now claim to be an expert of.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Imperial

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Imperial' date='23 June 2010 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1277269291' post='2347341']
This criticism might carry a bit more weight if it weren't for: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=81383&st=0&p=2195899&#entry2195899"]http://forums.cybern...9[/url]

For you see, what you accuse this alliance of is actually something that you yourself perpetrated and were subsequently removed for. So before you accuse Hubb of poor quality leadership, take a long hard look in the mirror and remember that you contributed to the problem which you now claim to be an expert of.
[/quote]

I don't see LF threatening anyone in that thread.

[Banksy]

The Arbiter being accused of racism. [i]Shocking[/i].

That said, the OWF isn't really the place for this sort of topic, regardless of the seriousness of the accusations. Hopefully you can find a better culture in the NSO.

[lmcfalcon12]

Well I guess all I can really say is good luck, and like I said, we're not all like that. I'm sorry that you have had a bad experience. It hasn't been all golden paths and roses, and I've made multiple trips to and from the Legion, but overall its been a decent experience. I'm sorry that a few bad apples ruined the fun. You're not the only one who was trying to tune them out. Good luck to where ever you end up going through out your CN life.

If anyone else has any other "explaining" to do, you're on your own. I've done my part.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Imperial' date='23 June 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1277269291' post='2347341']
This criticism might carry a bit more weight if it weren't for: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=81383&st=0&p=2195899&#entry2195899"]http://forums.cybern...9[/url]

For you see, what you accuse this alliance of is actually something that you yourself perpetrated and were subsequently removed for. So before you accuse Hubb of poor quality leadership, take a long hard look in the mirror and remember that you contributed to the problem which you now claim to be an expert of.
[/quote]

I claim no such thing, I've made my mistakes, but you can't simply write off your own because of that. Obama can't majorly screw up on the oil spill and then dismiss all claims of incompetance saying "But Hitler killed millions of people! I didn't do that." I'm simply pointing out that over the past 4 months or so there have been more Legion scandals and nonsense like this than I can shake a stick at and this seems to only continue a trend of running off members. CN is littered with embittered former Legion members who wished to improve the Legion and for some reason or another left due hostility. It saddens me because there are still some quality people left in Legion, totem, IW, tgol, yourself included Imperial, though we might not see eye to eye on many subjects. Just...I don't even know. Good luck, lets see if Arb and Feibs learn their lesson after the 50th time

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lord Fingolfin

[CBray]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='23 June 2010 - 05:47 AM' timestamp='1277268435' post='2347324']
I don't know the story, because the OP was edited. However, if you have GOONS and FEAR agreeing you've done something terrible.

Also, good luck at NSO. They are good guys
[/quote]

it's rare but on matters such as this I'd expect even GOONS to agree with us

[SiCkO]

[quote][10:40:34] #thelegion unable to join channel (address is banned)[/quote]

Arb, simply because I think you have stepped over the line multiple times does not give you permission to ban me from your public channel. Again.....


[quote name='Imperial' date='22 June 2010 - 10:01 PM' timestamp='1277269291' post='2347341']
This criticism might carry a bit more weight if it weren't for: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=81383&st=0&p=2195899&#entry2195899"]http://forums.cybern...9[/url]

For you see, what you accuse this alliance of is actually something that you yourself perpetrated and were subsequently removed for. So before you accuse Hubb of poor quality leadership, take a long hard look in the mirror and remember that you contributed to the problem which you now claim to be an expert of.
[/quote]

I didn't see that as Legion's biggest PR disaster. I saw that as LF pissed that Hubb didnt really listen to the voice of the members when he simply sought peace when internal polls showed that Legion didnt want to give up. In addition, it was poorly handled when Hubb pulled out of the peace and then decided he wanted back in (regardless of signatures). Imperial, I really respect you and a few others in Legion, but the people you have in charge have either been downright hostile or not cared when members leave or tried to propose change. Case and point was when I was harassed in query by a senior FA official and Arbiter. You seem to enjoy alienating your former members, many who want to simply leave on good terms and thought very favorably of you. Gunnar was a great person someone who i respected as a hard worker. It's your right not to agree with him but this was poorly handled.

Edited June 23, 2010 by SiCkO