We may forgive, but we should never forget.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Qaianna' date='28 May 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1275024407' post='2314324']
You mean I can't let them fester into grudges, get some charisma, form a core of dedicated fellows with nothing to lose, and participate in rocking the entirety of how the world works?

So much for that political invective class I invested in. Back to the lead mines for that tutor.
[/quote]

Well I was hoping more that Vox would never be needed again. If it is, then go for it I guess.

[Qaianna]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='28 May 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1275025816' post='2314345']
Well I was hoping more that Vox would never be needed again. If it is, then go for it I guess.
[/quote]
Charisma's too hard to get. I'll just invest in a searchlight that I can shine on a reflecting cloud. Then a mysterious guy will show up on the roof of my presidential palace, look at the information I covertly give him regarding the threats that plague decency ... and probably throw me off since I'm ex-Hegemony. Lousy grudges. Who'll clean up the bureaucrat's car that I land on, huh? Bet you didn't think of that!

..OK, back to sane posting. Um, overall, what do you guys think of the results of your labours?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='28 May 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1275025816' post='2314345']
Well I was hoping more that Vox would never be needed again. If it is, then go for it I guess.
[/quote]

well i am guessing it really depends on who you are then.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='27 May 2010 - 06:06 AM' timestamp='1274961946' post='2313401']
it always amuses me that i see all around these forums, how the OWF matters little in affecting any sort of change in a situation (look at the current one for that matter) and how the masses' opinions don't matter and all that jazz, until that is we speak of Vox. then all of a sudden, the posting on the OWF matters a whole lot and the opinions of the masses' matter a whole lot, and basically everything does a complete 180 degree turn.[/quote]
For my part, at least, you'll never hear me say that OWF discourse is irrelevant or that it matters little. It can often be an effective gauge for understanding where your alliance sits in the world. Of course, the game changing actions and moves often take place away from the public eye until it all comes to a head, but discussion and discourse is where lots of this kind of stuff gets its first legs. Vox effectively ran the OWF and was the primary source for people doubting the unity and cohesion of the hegemony at that time. An Iron Man 2 quote that comes to mind fits quite well actually. "If you could make God bleed, people will cease to believe in Him. There will be blood in the water, and the sharks will come."

[quote]why is that? frankly, i know for myself, Vox was amusing but did little if anything to change my opinion i already had on NPO or Valhalla or TPF or any of the other Hegemonic alliances. and i honestly doubt they changed all that many others' opinions as well.[/quote]
And in all fairness, I see you as a better informed poster than most. Aside from established names, alliance leader, and those in the know already, the mass public was likely hugely unaware of how scathing, vengeful and corrupt the hegemony alliances of that time could be. Sure people cried when their alliances got rolled, but that was the norm and the mass public came to accept that as predictable and normal. What Vox did was highlight the darkest and most sinister sides of the hegemony for those who would otherwise not see it. I see that as one reason Vox's numbers skyrocketed the way they did. Those that were normally apathetic due to lack of reason to do anything now saw an opportunity and a chance to make something of themselves and right an injustice they were not even aware of previously.

[Reptyler]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='20 May 2010 - 08:38 AM' timestamp='1274359084' post='2304982']
Vox was an unfunny joke that lead us to this world of joke alliances and lulzleet attitudes.
[/quote]
I'll be blunt: I didn't like Vox. I thought they were unfunny, uncouth, uncivilized, and uncalled-for. Most of their ideas rubbed me the wrong way, and their methods struck me as completely abhorrent. But to blame them solely for the "lulz" alliances is a gross misstatement, I think. LUEicide anyone? Then we had the alliances now associated with the Unjust moniker. I don't know how much credit you can actually give Vox for that one.

But it would be a gross error to discount Vox's influence on the world as it is now. I really hated their guts, but in retrospect, they influenced the war in a way that no one else could, and I think things turned out better because of it. If that was the original intended message of the OP, then I salute you, good sir. But let it be known that I hold no special fond memories in my heart of what they did.

[Bob Janova]

A large number of players get their information from OWF, and those members then run for office (in a democratic alliance) or get promoted (in autocratic ones), keeping the views they largely picked up from what goes on here. In some alliances (NPO I believe is a good example) most of the news is filtered into internal topics, so they will have their world view biased by the views of the people doing that filtering; in VE we do some of that (have summaries of important happenings) and so the people that get their world news from those summaries will pick up the bias of the VE summariser. But for most people who care enough to read any political material it is here that they find it.

There are three good examples of 'losing the boards' being important that I can think of immediately. The first is Aegis in GW3, who didn't really try to counter the Initiative propaganda (I think Legion weren't posting at all, but my memory on that might be shaky), and that led to an 'all is lost' mentality much earlier than it needed to. (Yes, Aegis would have lost that war anyway, this is not the only reason by far, but it needn't have been quite such a rolling over as it was because morale was hit by losing the boards.)

The second is the Unjust War. The Unjust Path had, almost deliberately, set themselves up as evil oppressors, and that made it much easier for Sponge (hardly an angel himself!) to rally support against them. The ~ coalition contained a large number of alliances that were previously tied to either neither side or both (MCXA being the most famous example of the latter). The Unjust did not so much lose the boards as deliberately blow themselves off it in the months before. Again, it was obviously not the only factor, but the size of the anti-Unjust bandwagon pushed the balance of the war from a close one to a crushing defeat.

And the third has already been mentioned: NPO's blackout in early '09. No, it was not caused by Vox, but it had the effect of handing the boards to Vox, and left the presentation of anti-Order and anti-hegemony propaganda (because let's be honest not everything Vox said was pure fact ) unanswered. I'm sure the membership sentiment in alliances like NpO, Sparta and MHA (I'm excluding TOP because as an elite and more open alliance they probably know more of the back channel material) played a part in how those alliances fell in Karma, and again that pushed the balance of the war from too close to call to a loss. (In the first few days of the war, the coalition that was to become Karma was seriously worried about the numbers, so a few large bricks falling the other way would really have mattered.)

We all know why Hegemony was bad: they did all these bad things, oppressed and destroyed alliances disconnected to their part of the web, and so on. How do we know that? Because it was aired on these boards, repeated many times, until everyone knew about it.

These boards are important and any alliance ignores them at its peril, because if it ever gets into a conflict, its opponent's slant will be ingrained into every post about the matter, and therefore into the minds of every general membership in CN. Sure, the government of today might be informed through back channels and not need to wade through the disinformation, politicking and lies on here, but the government of next month or next year is not and picks their basic opinion on alliances up from here.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='28 May 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1275060818' post='2314629']
And the third has already been mentioned: NPO's blackout in early '09. No, it was not caused by Vox, but it had the effect of handing the boards to Vox, and left the presentation of anti-Order and anti-hegemony propaganda (because let's be honest not everything Vox said was pure fact ) unanswered.
[/quote]
The problem with discussing this is that the reason for NPO's blackout cannot be discussed on these forums, and it's at the core of the matter.

[Chickenzilla]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='28 May 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1275062102' post='2314641']
The problem with discussing this is that the reason for NPO's blackout cannot be discussed on these forums, and it's at the core of the matter.
[/quote]
They blamed Vox for the events that lead to the blackout for the longest time though.

[Bob Janova]

They thought the staff were biased against them ... right? Surely we're allowed to say that (just not [i]agree[/i] with it and claim the staff are biased in one way or another).

[Cortath]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' date='28 May 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1275082033' post='2314932']
They blamed Vox for the events that lead to the blackout for the longest time though.
[/quote]

You are wrong. As was said before, the decision to do radio silence was for reasons we are not permitted to discuss here.

[Starfox101]

You blamed us numerous times.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='29 May 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1275112743' post='2315336']
You blamed us numerous times.
[/quote]

You are a silly person.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='28 May 2010 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1275112743' post='2315336']
You blamed us numerous times.
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure I saw this pop up a couple times as well. At least, if no one said it outright, they certainly didn't take the seconds it takes to make a solid post stating it wasn't due to Vox. Even if you're placing a OWF blackout on your alliance, it would pay to make a post to straighten out a few possibly misunderstood occurrences. I certainly do not remember something of that nature happening.

I actually didn't know that the reasoning for the blackout wasn't allowed to be discussed. If that's an administration ruling then I would assume it has to be for OOC issues. You guys declared war over OOC issues remember? Just sayin'.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Captain Flinders

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' date='29 May 2010 - 06:29 AM' timestamp='1275132540' post='2315445']
I'm pretty sure I saw this pop up a couple times as well. At least, if no one said it outright, they certainly didn't take the seconds it takes to make a solid post stating it wasn't due to Vox. Even if you're placing a OWF blackout on your alliance, it would pay to make a post to straighten out a few possibly misunderstood occurrences. I certainly do not remember something of that nature happening.

I actually didn't know that the reasoning for the blackout wasn't allowed to be discussed. If that's an administration ruling then I would assume it has to be for OOC issues. You guys declared war over OOC issues remember? Just sayin'.
[/quote]

so because others said that Vox put them in radio silence, NPO should have broken radio silence to explain why they went into radio silence in the first place?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' date='29 May 2010 - 07:29 AM' timestamp='1275132540' post='2315445']
I actually didn't know that the reasoning for the blackout wasn't allowed to be discussed. If that's an administration ruling then I would assume it has to be for OOC issues. You guys declared war over OOC issues remember? Just sayin'.
[/quote]
The reasoning for the blackout cannot be discussed on these forums due to the rules of the forums. If you want to talk about it, I suggest using IRC.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='29 May 2010 - 07:32 AM' timestamp='1275139933' post='2315512']
so because others said that Vox put them in radio silence, NPO should have broken radio silence to explain why they went into radio silence in the first place?
[/quote]
Well, yes. As many would agree, OWF discourse can be a game changer. So would it be better to remain silent and have the seed of doubt slowly plant itself in the minds of all those people, or briefly and meaningfully break your silence to at least stem the rumor weed?

Edited May 29, 2010 by Captain Flinders

[Vladimir]

It has already been explained that it [i]couldn't[/i] be discussed on the OWF. Regardless, the people who cared about facts already knew, and I'll let my Venn Diagram complete the explanation.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/billie_joe34/OWF.jpg[/img]

OWF discourse can indeed be important; however, some are giving it far more importance than it deserves.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' date='29 May 2010 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1275142342' post='2315527']
Well, yes. As many would agree, OWF discourse can be a game changer. So would it be better to remain silent and have the seed of doubt slowly plant itself in the minds of all those people, or briefly and meaningfully break your silence to at least stem the rumor weed?
[/quote]

Man, i could have sworn there was all this talk about how the OWF doesn't matter and that no one's opinions matter outside of alliance and allies and friends. i mean \m/ did not give in to OWF pressure nor has many other alliances. frankly, most alliances during the time of Vox were either scared of NPO and just waiting for something to happen or were scared of losing their precious infra and hopped over to the other side as soon as they could. the OWF may have had some influence but it was not nearly as much as ya'll keep putting it at.

As for the NPO radio silence, yes it did help give the forums over to Vox, but even if NPO had broken their radio silence to stem the rumor, it would have done nothing as most had already made their mind up and nothing could be done to stop it.

[Qaianna]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' date='29 May 2010 - 06:29 AM' timestamp='1275132540' post='2315445']
I'm pretty sure I saw this pop up a couple times as well. At least, if no one said it outright, they certainly didn't take the seconds it takes to make a solid post stating it wasn't due to Vox. Even if you're placing a OWF blackout on your alliance, it would pay to make a post to straighten out a few possibly misunderstood occurrences. I certainly do not remember something of that nature happening.

I actually didn't know that the reasoning for the blackout wasn't allowed to be discussed. If that's an administration ruling then I would assume it has to be for OOC issues. You guys declared war over OOC issues remember? Just sayin'.
[/quote]
Part of the difficulty is having to carefully tailor one's postings, which I'd have to say the Vox Populi era left me with a sense of. During that time, it's hard for me to think ANY announcement from any favoured target would be taken at face value. I'd lamented a few times that were I to have announced that the sky was blue, it would take three posts for things to twist around to where I was destroying the fabric of reality, or at least razing the foundations of liberty. This is actually what comes to mind when someone orders radio silence--the idea that any appearance must be carefully crafted and protected, lest it become fodder for the mill.

I'm pretty sure we remember another alliance that wasn't quite as careful with its members' postings..

[Chief Savage Man]

Vox brought things that were never on the OWF (secrets, intel, logs) into the OWF. Vox changed the dynamic and used the OWF as a tool to generate anger and bad PR for NPO.