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Sanctions as a Weapon

Sephiroth

By Sephiroth
in World Affairs (IC)

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mrcalkin Newbie

mrcalkin

Posted
Posted

[quote name='JamezBfod' date='17 April 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1271517276' post='2263897']
We deserve this how?
We have followed precedent
Don't quit your day job
[/quote]

Obviously deserved because people trying to push a grudge by aiding people at war with your alliance is actually a totally benevolent and nice thing to do. Methrage was just trying to hug GOONS and we over-reacted by sanctioning him before he could possibly get his arms around all of you.

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Alonois Newbie

Alonois

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Posted (edited)

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='17 April 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1271517352' post='2263899']
Given that it's possible to find a Uranium trade within hours on another team (or apparently simply give Rebel Virginia a call...), I'm afraid all you've done is gather a lot of criticism for your actions and prevented nothing.

As for GOONS, maybe they actually thought they could get Methrage to "shut up" and things worked more like the cyberverse from whence they came. We established a long time ago that strategy never works when someone has a lot of sympathy in the Planet Bob community, and as "potential" nuke rogues go (as you claim), Methrage has considerable backing.
[/quote]

I don't think any of us actually want Methrage to shut up. Every time he talks it's comedy gold. We just want to deal with him like we would any rogue. That and help illuminate the hypocrisies within the community. Aiding a nation you're at war with might not be pulling the trigger, but it is giving them the gun and saying "Now keep shooting". Your money becomes their soldiers, their tanks, so on and so on. And you can't pretend you didn't know what they were going to use it for. They're at war. There's no mistaking what a nation's money will be used for when they're at war. This put the CSA on the same level as Rukunu, a rogue we've been trying to get rid of for quite a few months. When Methrage stepped in to say "I'll totally fight for you guys! Come into my alliance (And if I get some people in my alliance finally hey, win win right?)" he was throwing his support, his guns, his money into the war. He openly took an aggressive stance, and threatened (meagerly) aggressive action against GOONS nations. That we have responded to the threat of an aggressive single nation like anyone should, that is to say that we responded to a rogue nation with the force one uses against a rogue nation, isn't just understandable but to be expected. He is a rogue nation. He is a single nation (No, that one guy that briefly jumped into his alliance from CSA and then stepped back out doesn't count), taking aggressive action against alliances. That is a rogue nation.

As for criticism, from who? We should care about criticism from the people who already perpetually claim all we do is evil? Their opinions aren't based on facts, nothing we will do will change it. I promise you we could send aid to every nation and swear off war and people would claim we're just propping up proxy wars.

I know if we aided a nation or an alliance that another alliance was warring with we'd be considered enemy combatants and on the same side. This is because we would be. Because that action, of assisting a nation at war, is an aggressive action.

[center]aid gives them power
war is all about power
aid is aggressive[/center]

Edited by Alonois
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Bob Janova Newbie

Bob Janova

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[quote]This put the CSA on the same level as Rukunu, a rogue we've been trying to get rid of for quite a few months.[/quote]
Wait, what? CSA made some bad calls and are deservedly at war (though hopefully you are making reasonable efforts in peace negotiations at this point), but that doesn't make them as bad as a persistent rogue.

[quote]I know if we aided a nation or an alliance that another alliance was warring with we'd be considered enemy combatants and on the same side. This is because we would be.[/quote]
You wouldn't be 'enemy combatants', though it would provide a rock solid CB for the other side to attack you if they so chose. A good example of this is the [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Golden_Sabres_War]Golden Sabres War[/url], in which GS was declared on for providing Senate support for an enemy ... but aggressive declarations of war from One Vision were provided. The point about MDPs was not tested as GS were dropped by NPO before the war, though.

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mrcalkin Newbie

mrcalkin

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Posted

And... I guess since Methrage can't post at the moment since he's under suspension, here's the gem he left in our public channel:

<Methrage> Anyone interested in discussing rolling GOONS, PC, and\or Umbrella can send me a PM and I can figure out how much support their would be.

but I guess that's also benevolent and totally unlike a rogue or anything. Make sure to hit me up before you guys all have your meeting so I can be sure to deliver the OJ and cupcakes for everybody :wub:

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lamuella Newbie

lamuella

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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='17 April 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1271520328' post='2263923']
Wait, what? CSA made some bad calls and are deservedly at war (though hopefully you are making reasonable efforts in peace negotiations at this point), but that doesn't make them as bad as a persistent rogue.


You wouldn't be 'enemy combatants', though it would provide a rock solid CB for the other side to attack you if they so chose. A good example of this is the [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Golden_Sabres_War]Golden Sabres War[/url], in which GS was declared on for providing Senate support for an enemy ... but aggressive declarations of war from One Vision were provided. The point about MDPs was not tested as GS were dropped by NPO before the war, though.
[/quote]

Bob, you're still ignoring the fact that Methrage outright said he was at war with GOONS, and announced his intention to attack GOONS nations the moment an offensive war slot opened up.

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Alonois Newbie

Alonois

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Posted

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='17 April 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1271520328' post='2263923']
Wait, what? CSA made some bad calls and are deservedly at war (though hopefully you are making reasonable efforts in peace negotiations at this point), but that doesn't make them as bad as a persistent rogue.


You wouldn't be 'enemy combatants', though it would provide a rock solid CB for the other side to attack you if they so chose. A good example of this is the [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Golden_Sabres_War]Golden Sabres War[/url], in which GS was declared on for providing Senate support for an enemy ... but aggressive declarations of war from One Vision were provided. The point about MDPs was not tested as GS were dropped by NPO before the war, though.
[/quote]

Let me rephrase, by "same level" I mean aggressive and at war, not rogues. I don't think the CSA are rogues (I don't think they're much of anything now. Zing)

If something's a rock solid CB, I'm gonna go on a limb and say that it's because it's an aggressive action and they are involved in the war in the first place. You send aid, you are involved in with that nation and supporting that nation. If you support a nation at war, you are supporting their war against whoever else and thus are on their side in the conflict.

Methrage has done this, as a single nation, and tried to involve himself in the wars of two different alliances (Gramlins and GOONS). He is not an alliance. He is one nation, with no respect for sovereignty. This makes him a rogue nation, likely to continue this trend of assaulting alliances. Were he actually involved in an alliance, then he would actually be restricted by the same things any alliance is restricted by. But he is not. Nothing restrains him. He will likely continue with or without public sentiment, does not need to worry about internal dissent, and has no actual defined allies. Supporters maybe, cheerleaders yes, but no one has signed a treaty with him. No alliance (Last I checked) has said "We are Methrage's buddies" and as such he is accountable to no one else. This is what a rogue nation is, accountable to no one and regularly showing aggression to alliances. A sanction levies some penalty against a rogue nation. It weakens the rogue nation and sends a message to others that they might not be accountable to some one, but they will still suffer consequences for rogue actions.

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Bob Janova Newbie

Bob Janova

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Posted (edited)

I'm fairly sure I answered those two points earlier in the thread: Meth posted something which was more a rambling RoH than a rambling DoW, and intent to attack is not the same as actually attacking (as most of the world agreed in the case of the TOP/C&G front of Bipolar).

Edit: Above text is re Lam's last post.

[quote]If something's a rock solid CB, I'm gonna go on a limb and say that it's because it's an aggressive action and they are involved in the war in the first place.[/quote]
Out on a limb indeed. I gave you an example in the last post which shows that it isn't the case, and that you still need to act on a CB by declaring war (aggressively) to put that alliance on the other side.

Here's another example: during Bipolar, GOD didn't agree to suspend NPO reps, so NPO were aiding GOD through the war ... but that didn't automatically put them at war with NpO and all NpO's MDP partners.

There is a fundamental difference between a CB – a valid reason to start a war – and actually starting a war. And that's the case whether you're an established alliance or an individual nation.

Edited by Bob Janova
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Alonois Newbie

Alonois

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Posted (edited)

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='17 April 2010 - 11:35 AM' timestamp='1271522135' post='2263940']
I'm fairly sure I answered those two points earlier in the thread: Meth posted something which was more a rambling RoH than a rambling DoW, and intent to attack is not the same as actually attacking (as most of the world agreed in the case of the TOP/C&G front of Bipolar).
[/quote]

He took nations we were at war with under his 'protection' and clearly stated he was willing to do the same for the rest. That's not just intent to attack.

Oh, and he pretty bluntly said "I recognize a state of war".

Edited by Alonois
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Lord GVChamp Newbie

Lord GVChamp

Posted
Posted (edited)

Sorry, Meth, I think this is unjust, but this is pretty well within normal operating standards of the Planet Bob community. Not the getting attacked thing. You were behaving belligerently and GOONS had a legit CB. The sanctions part. Sanctions should only be used on scammers and exceptional circumstances (something about deleting forums?)

That said, I'll stand by my previous negative assessments of GOONS, as the maturity level of most of their posts in this thread is reminiscent of a kindergarten class. I think prefer the mindless hailing of NPO

Edited by Lord GVChamp
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Biazt Newbie

Biazt

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Posted

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='17 April 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1271517352' post='2263899']
As for GOONS, maybe they actually thought they could get Methrage to "shut up" and things worked more like the cyberverse from whence they came. We established a long time ago that strategy never works when someone has a lot of sympathy in the Planet Bob community, and as "potential" nuke rogues go (as you claim), Methrage has considerable backing.
[/quote]

Quoting this because it has nothing to do with the situation and just reinforces that all 22 pages here is thinly veiled :(( GOONS :((

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Rebel Virginia Enthusiast

Rebel Virginia

Posted
Posted

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='17 April 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1271525105' post='2263969']
That said, I'll stand by my previous negative assessments of GOONS, as the maturity level of most of their posts in this thread is reminiscent of a kindergarten class. I think prefer the mindless hailing of NPO
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Well, I suppose I can walk away satisfied that at least someone out there sees GOONS for what it is, and quite frankly this is the main reason that I feel GOONS deserves death. It is just a horrible alliance and does not deserve to exist.[/color]

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Alonois Newbie

Alonois

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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='17 April 2010 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1271527738' post='2263996']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, I suppose I can walk away satisfied that at least someone out there sees GOONS for what it is, and quite frankly this is the main reason that I feel GOONS deserves death. It is just a horrible alliance and does not deserve to exist.[/color]
[/quote]

[center]Truth is refreshing
It is the best policy
And yet still [img]http://i32.tinypic.com/33upd14.jpg[/img]
[/center]

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palaceofhate Newbie

palaceofhate

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Posted

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='17 April 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1271527738' post='2263996']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, I suppose I can walk away satisfied that at least someone out there sees GOONS for what it is, and quite frankly this is the main reason that I feel GOONS deserves death. It is just a horrible alliance and does not deserve to exist.[/color]
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Goons is a horrible alliance and does not deserve to exist because Rebel Virginia, King of the earth, says so[/color]

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zzzptm Newbie

zzzptm

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Posted

Claiming to be in an alliance while going rogue is still going rogue. I hate to agree with GOONS, but I think they've got a case here. Yes, there's a convoluted back story, but the old saw still applies here: join an alliance with over 15 members and cease offensive actions if you want this stuff to end.

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Lairek Newbie

Lairek

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Posted

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='17 April 2010 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1271527738' post='2263996']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, I suppose I can walk away satisfied that at least someone out there sees GOONS for what it is, and quite frankly this is the main reason that I feel GOONS deserves death. It is just a horrible alliance and does not deserve to exist.[/color]
[/quote]

[color="#0000FF"]This oppinion will not stand! You will regret this![/color]

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lamuella Newbie

lamuella

Posted
Posted (edited)

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='17 April 2010 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1271527738' post='2263996']
[color="#0000FF"]GOONS deserves death. It is just a horrible alliance and does not deserve to exist.[/color]
[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"]sigged[/color]

love you lots, RV. You're my favorite nutcase.

Edited by Lamuella
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nippy Newbie

nippy

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Posted

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='17 April 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1271527738' post='2263996']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, I suppose I can walk away satisfied that at least someone out there sees GOONS for what it is, and quite frankly this is the main reason that I feel GOONS deserves death. It is just a horrible alliance and does not deserve to exist.[/color]
[/quote]

I can't wait until you join GOONS. You, sir, will fit right in. You have the wit, you have the gall, and you have the balls. Get in here. I'll even forgive your uranium trade to Methrage, you !@#$%^&. You can put a damn El Camino up on blocks in front of our headquarters if you want, and I will buy you a fifth of Crown Royal every week. Get in here.

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